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    (Original post by Axion)
    OK i'm confused now!

    I said that we'd be weaker short-term - almost everyone agrees.

    You said that we'd be stronger (presumably long-term).
    Some say we'd be weaker long-term, and these are generally credible institutions.
    Can't see many credible institutions saying we're better off long-term outside the EU.
    I'd say the future is anyone's guess.

    Net result = Short-term pain, unclear if there is any long-term gain. If EU breaks up thereafter, can be sure of longer-term feedback loop pain.


    So again, I see zero compelling reason to leave from an economic standpoint, given the limited future certainty. Again, I'd also much rather leave in the future, it it became obvious we needed to, from a point of economic stability and sound finances, not whilst most European economies are teetering on the edge of the Grand Canyon!
    The chief investment officer from from the article above said we could be better off if we made the right decisions, Mohammed El-Erian from Pimco said we can be better off too.
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    (Original post by Axion)
    OK i'm confused now!

    I said that we'd be weaker short-term - almost everyone agrees.

    You said that we'd be stronger (presumably long-term).
    Some say we'd be weaker long-term, and these are generally credible institutions.
    Can't see many credible institutions saying we're better off long-term outside the EU.
    I'd say the future is anyone's guess.

    Net result = Short-term pain, unclear if there is any long-term gain. If EU breaks up thereafter, can be sure of longer-term feedback loop pain.

    So again, I see zero compelling reason to leave from an economic standpoint, given the limited future certainty. Again, I'd also much rather leave in the future, it it became obvious we needed to, from a point of economic stability and sound finances, not whilst most European economies are teetering on the edge of the Grand Canyon!
    I don't see credible instituions sayign credible arguments
    ergo I ignore these (un)credible instituions.

    I think the only thing that could damage us long-term in the case of a Brexit is if the EU deliberately tries to screw us over out of spite / make an example os us. But that's petty revenge and that would be ignorign the economic advantage of still trading with us.

    Like when people we won't haveaccess to the single market; we'd presumably make a trade deal considering we're the biggest export market for goods for the rest of the EU (not services, but goods.)

    I don't see a reason to not still keep trading unless it's just spite for leaving, and that's beyond silly and petty and not to their advantage in the case of a Brexit.

    (There are other economic arguments regarding food prices and CAP (Common Agricultural Policy), setting our own tariffs (but weirdly business sectary in Cameron's gov atm had issue with the proposal by the EU to increase tariffs on dumped Stinese e.g. by the Chinese.))

    I just don't see any compelling reasons by the remain to stay economically/economics-wise.

    Polar opposites on this regard.

    (I don't know and haven't debated the fisheries argument so I don't mention that.)

    Edit #1: P.S. Sorry for the bad spelling; I was typing under pressure (gonna do a bit of revision before my chemistry exam in 39 minutes.)
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    I hope we leave.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    How so?

    Please substantiate your points.
    That is exactly what I could have asked hence I bolded that part of your post...mine was an ironic post.

    Not very fast, are we?
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    (Original post by Supersaps)
    It also begs the question:


    Are students out of touch with UK society? Given the gulf in voting intentions between students and the rest of the population.

    SS
    Yes, all these unthinkingly pro EU, pro unlimited immigration students are laughably out of touch with UK society. But it doesn't matter because most are too stupid to vote.

    Ever wondered why we have an unaffordable triple lock on old age pensions and yet some of the highest fees for students in the world?
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    (Original post by generallee)

    Ever wondered why we have an unaffordable triple lock on old age pensions and yet some of the highest fees for students in the world?
    Mmmmm.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    Yes, all these unthinkingly pro EU, pro unlimited immigration students are laughably out of touch with UK society. But it doesn't matter because most are too stupid to vote.

    Ever wondered why we have an unaffordable triple lock on old age pensions and yet some of the highest fees for students in the world?
    I'm confused as to why each of those things are relevant to each other? Do you propose we make university 'free' and have an even more unaffordable situation??

    Also, considering the extremely high quality of our education, we would expect it to have some of the highest fees in the world. Compared to other countries of similar quality its actually good value:

    http://indy100.independent.co.uk/art...es--WJ0S5a4BQg
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    When you say "let the multinationals fend for themselves", you mean you will be happy to see about 2m jobs walk out of the country as the major car manufacturers relocate?

    Do you think BMW, Nissan, Toyota, etc, etc are going to stay here if the UK leaves?
    Many car companies said the same thing in 2002 regarding the UK & the Euro. Needless to say, they're still here.

    The set-up cost of building a new factory isn't exactly cheap - I can't find any figures for how much the Toyota factory in Derbyshire cost but it took three years before a car rolled off the production line. Unless the UK literally has no trade deal with the EU whatsoever I highly doubt the car manufacturers will close up & move on.
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    (Original post by Tempest II)
    Many car companies said the same thing in 2002 regarding the UK & the Euro. Needless to say, they're still here.

    The set-up cost of building a new factory isn't exactly cheap - I can't find any figures for how much the Toyota factory in Derbyshire cost but it took threes before a car rolled off the production line. Unless the UK literally has no trade deal with the EU whatsoever I highly doubt the car manufacturers will close up & move on.
    Of course it wouldn't happen in a week. It's about the direction of policy. Where will they be in five years time when they next review their major locations?

    As with everything, the religious faith of the leavers that everything will somehow, by some magical process, be better after departure, trumps any analysis of actual economic reality.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course it wouldn't happen in a week. It's about the direction of policy. Where will they be in five years time when they next review their major locations?

    As with everything, the religious faith of the leavers that everything will somehow, by some magical process, be better after departure, trumps any analysis of actual economic reality.
    The economic reality is that they are unlikely to move their HQ because it still wouldn't be cost effective...
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    (Original post by generallee)
    We did OK governing ourselves in the thousand years between 1066
    We got absolutely shredded by invading French people in 1066...
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    I'm confused as to why each of those things are relevant to each other? Do you propose we make university 'free' and have an even more unaffordable situation??

    Also, considering the extremely high quality of our education, we would expect it to have some of the highest fees in the world. Compared to other countries of similar quality its actually good value:

    http://indy100.independent.co.uk/art...es--WJ0S5a4BQg
    I was talking about the difference in political power exerted by students and OAP's.

    Old people believe it is important to vote, do so in very high numbers and form a very formidable lobby group for their interests.

    The old age pension has been unfairly (in my view) protected because of the fear of their ability to influence elections. No government dare mess with them. Even though, arguably, it is in the national interest that there be pension reform.

    I was not arguing the pros and cons of student tuition fees, but just observing that students have been ignored as a political lobby by both parties on the issue at various times. Because they vote in much smaller numbers.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    I was talking about the difference in political power exerted by students and OAP's.

    Old people believe it is important to vote, do so in very high numbers and form a very formidable lobby group for their interests.

    The old age pension has been unfairly (in my view) protected because of the fear of their ability to influence elections. No government dare mess with them. Even though, arguably, it is in the national interest that there be pension reform.

    I was not arguing the pros and cons of student tuition fees, but just observing that students have been ignored as a political lobby by both parties on the issue at various times. Because they vote in much smaller numbers.
    I think it's quite right that OAPs pensions can be protected, it's not like elderly people can just go back to work and earn more money to avoid fuel poverty if their pension gets cut.

    Likewise if young people can't be bothered to vote/not interested then it's their fault that their views are not implemented.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course it wouldn't happen in a week. It's about the direction of policy. Where will they be in five years time when they next review their major locations?

    As with everything, the religious faith of the leavers that everything will somehow, by some magical process, be better after departure, trumps any analysis of actual economic reality.
    I unfortunately highly doubt anyone can give a good prediction in five years regardless of whether we're in or out the EU.

    The UK has below average corporation tax (20%) which is actually set to lower further over the next few years which'll help keep car manufacturers here.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but you don't exactly strike me as being a champion for large multi-national companies who on the whole desire minimal legislation & legislative uniformity to keep their costs down rather than having the best interests of the UK people?
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    (Original post by Inexorably)
    Silly, fairly obvious question, from myself - will there be an exit poll after the vote takes place like with the General Election? 'Cause if so, I think that's the only poll I'm going to be even seriously considering.
    I read that they won't do it because the methods that make the exit polls accurate in general elections aren't available for the referendum. Specifically, they can't measure the change from previous elections at particular polling stations because, obviously, we haven't had a recent referendum on this issue.
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    (Original post by Retired_Messiah)
    We got absolutely shredded by invading French people in 1066...
    Yes we did!

    I said there were ups and downs.

    Actually the history of the post Norman Conquest is another very good argument for leave.

    Because of it successive English Kings got caught in a sort of early European Union, with lands all over France. It caused all sorts of rivalries and problems.

    We didn't see the end of centuries of warfare until we finally lost all those possessions in continental Europe.
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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    The economic reality is that they are unlikely to move their HQ because it still wouldn't be cost effective...
    The voice of faith.

    The big car manufacturers came to the UK to set up their major plants precisely because Britain is in the EU.

    Answers on a postcard as to why they won't decide to leave when we do.
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    (Original post by generallee)
    Yes we did!

    I said there were ups and downs.

    Actually the history of the post Norman Conquest is another very good argument for leave.

    Because of it successive English Kings got caught in a sort of early European Union, with lands all over France. It caused all sorts of rivalries and problems.

    We didn't see the end of centuries of warfare until we finally lost all those possessions in continental Europe.
    Lol, now we are going back to 1066 to seek reasons to Leave - I thought it was all about the 1950s!
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The voice of faith.

    The big car manufacturers came to the UK to set up their major plants precisely because Britain is in the EU.

    Answers on a postcard as to why they won't decide to leave when we do.
    We used to have our own car manufacturers before our government sold them down the river.


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    (Original post by Sun_Bear)
    I think it's quite right that OAPs pensions can be protected, it's not like elderly people can just go back to work and earn more money to avoid fuel poverty if their pension gets cut.

    Likewise if young people can't be bothered to vote/not interested then it's their fault that their views are not implemented.
    On the second part I agree.

    On the first, I think the universal aspect of old age pensions is the problem. I understand the (very good) arguments for it, but it leads to rich elderly people getting money they don't need in a time of austerity, and the pensions part of the overall governmental budget getting bigger and bigger as a proportion of the total because people are living so much longer.
 
 
 
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