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Baroness Warsi defects from Leave to Remain Watch

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The lure of the EU has democratized numerous countries.
    Which countries are these? The ones that were behind the iron curtain and then were democratised when the USSR collapsed?

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Inflation in 1975 was running off the clock at 24% (salaries were even index-linked on a monthly basis) and the pound was worth $2.22. In 2016 we have zero inflation and a pound worth $1.48.
    What exactly is your point? Has anyone here predicted a return to inflation of 24%?

    All I said was that there would an increase in Inflation which is something that would happen as imports become more expensive.
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    Britain leaves the EU - A primate-drawn shape distances itself from other primate-drawn shapes.

    Britain stays in the EU - A primate drawn shape doesn't distance itself from other primate drawn-shapes.

    In other words - nobody cares.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    What exactly is your point? Has anyone here predicted a return to inflation of 24%?

    All I said was that there would an increase in Inflation which is something that would happen as imports become more expensive.
    My point is that a lower pound and higher inflation do not necessarily go together as you imply. In any case, the imports would dry up as armageddon hit us and recession took its toll on Britain, according to remain orthodoxy.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    hehe Be careful. If you say that often enough someone might believe you.

    The remain camp have claimed that leaving the EU will lead to inflation, recession, financial shock akin to the banking crash, war, even (from Mr Tusk) the end of western civilisation. That is Project Fear.

    Yet we wouldn't even be deciding if Cameron had not asked us to do so. If things could be that bad, surely no PM would contemplate giving the public a chance to **** things up?

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06...s-donald-tusk/
    Pointing out very real risks to an inherently risky decision is not scaremongering - it's sensible. Almost every expert thinks we're economically better off and more secure in the EU.
    The Leave campaign has not provided a single viable alternative or blueprint for a post-Brexit Britain. Not one.

    Apparently according to you, pointing out very real risks and asking the other side how they would cope with them is scaremongering.
    So it must be scaremongering when we're told not to drink and drive or to wear a seatbelt?
    If a mechanic says your car is not in a fit condition to be driven that must also be scaremongering?


    The leave campaign on the other hand have lied and scaremongered about Turkey, lied about EU legislation, lied about how much money it costs us.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The Leave campaign has not provided a single viable alternative or blueprint for a post-Brexit Britain. Not one.
    For the simple reason that the future depends on the post-referendum debate on what our strategy should be as well as what party is in power.

    The remain camp is purporting to offer steady as she goes but this is obviously not true, hence the attempt to future damaging accessions and their effects on social and economic cohesion, just as Blair did before he changed the face of Britain's demographics by a cynical attempt to manipulate the composition of the electorate via mass migration.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The EU costing £350 million a week
    Pre-rebate, gross, average, weekly dues are £350 million. It is disingenuous to present this as an amount that goes to the EU, however, plainly it does not. I personally prefer to go with £250 million per week gross, and £165 million per week net. Whichever figure you chose, it's a heck of a lot of money that we could do with controlling ourselves! #TakeControl

    Turkey joining the EU
    Short of EU collapse this is going to happen sooner or later. Perhaps not in the next year or so but we presently have absolutely no guarantees re: veto from Cameron, who ducked the opportunity on several occasions (shameful)

    Over 60% of our laws being made in the EU
    Over half of our laws originate in/are influenced by the EU now. If they've worded this inaccurately then that's a shame/possibly disingenuous but again, this is, in essence, a fact

    you're a bunch of opportunistic compulsive liars
    I have just dealt with your charges, so unless you have any others I suggest you retract this baseless prejudicial defamation :yy:
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Pre-rebate, gross, average, weekly dues are £350 million. It is disingenuous to present this as an amount that goes to the EU, however, plainly it does not. I personally prefer to go with £250 million per week gross, and £165 million per week net. Whichever figure you chose, it's a heck of a lot of money that we could do with controlling ourselves! #TakeControl

    Short of EU collapse this is going to happen sooner or later. Perhaps not in the next year or so but we presently have absolutely no guarantees re: veto from Cameron, who ducked the opportunity on several occasions (shameful)

    Over half of our laws originate in/are influenced by the EU now. If they've worded this inaccurately then that's a shame/possibly disingenuous but again, this is, in essence, a fact

    I have just dealt with your charges, so unless you have any others I suggest you retract this baseless prejudicial defamation :yy:
    Saying things that are technically true in an intentionally misleading manner counts as lying.

    You do realise it would cost us almost as much to join the single market?
    You didn't rebut the turkey lie. Even Boris johnson said there is no chance of them joining. Sooner or later? Not for decades, perhaps centuries.

    Can you possibly give me a vision of post Brexit Britain? Which trade deals would we sign?
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Pre-rebate, gross, average, weekly dues are £350 million. It is disingenuous to present this as an amount that goes to the EU, however, plainly it does not. I personally prefer to go with £250 million per week gross, and £165 million per week net. Whichever figure you chose, it's a heck of a lot of money that we could do with controlling ourselves! #TakeControl

    Short of EU collapse this is going to happen sooner or later. Perhaps not in the next year or so but we presently have absolutely no guarantees re: veto from Cameron, who ducked the opportunity on several occasions (shameful)

    Over half of our laws originate in/are influenced by the EU now. If they've worded this inaccurately then that's a shame/possibly disingenuous but again, this is, in essence, a fact

    I have just dealt with your charges, so unless you have any others I suggest you retract this baseless prejudicial defamation :yy:
    So take the disingenuous £350m off the bus.

    Turkey, later much later, if ever. Definitely not sooner.

    The vast majority of those laws which we supported anyway.

    And if we weren't in EU but signed up to a trade agreement many of which we'd have to adopt anyway. With no say on them. At all.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Saying things that are technically true in an intentionally misleading manner counts as lying.

    You didn't rebut the turkey lie. Even Boris johnson said there is no chance of them joining. Sooner or later? Not for decades, perhaps centuries.
    I do love it when you change definitions, do you know what a lie is? It's this: an intentionally false statement.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Saying things that are technically true in an intentionally misleading manner counts as lying
    It counts as deceit,* were done knowingly/deliberately, aye, and I agree that the way the 350 million figure has been used has been less than straightforward

    You do realise it would cost us almost as much to join the single market?
    You sound rather certain about that (when in fact it is impossible to say with certainty what it would cost us, were we keen to remain a part of the EFTA). Not exactly on terra firmer banging on about mistruths.. :mmm:

    You didn't rebut the turkey lie
    I dealt with the issue. If you want to quote the #VoteLeave leadership in making a particular, categorical claim with regards to Turkey I will happily address it

    Sooner or later? Not for decades, perhaps centuries
    Impossible to predict, albeit that it's the kind of country that could really turn things round and satisfy most of the criteria with a single change of government - as you may know, Turkey is really quite modern in many respects

    Which trade deals would we sign?
    We'd have to: 1) Review present arrangements (establish where there is a need for trade deals/revisions a la WTO protocols; 2) Prioritise by virtue of: A) Trade volume (biggest first); B) Willingness to negotiate of other party (most willing to the 'front of the queue'); C) Projected chronology of negotiations (most complex/longest lasting ideally commenced without delay)

    (Original post by jneill)
    So take the disingenuous £350m off the bus
    Unfortunately I don’t run the campaign, or I’d have been out with me can of spray paint adjusting it for accuracy

    The vast majority of those laws which we supported anyway
    Fair point, albeit that not all that many wash completely with the bulk of the electorate e.g. especially the more pinickety/red tapey ones that do hinder/curtail SME’s (hence 2/3 of SME business leaders are for #Brexit)

    And if we weren't in EU but signed up to a trade agreement many of which we'd have to adopt anyway
    The relevant ones, for sure, but look more deeply into precisely what proportion of EU law the likes of Norway/Switz actually have to adhere to, FYR

    With no say on them. At all
    No say except to say that if the EU take the piss then they’ll soon learn that non-tariff barriers can go up in both directions. Our nation does not have a rich history of being mugged off, far from it! :captain:
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Fair point, albeit that not all that many wash completely with the bulk of the electorate e.g. especially the more pinickety/red tapey ones that do hinder/curtail SME’s (hence 2/3 of SME business leaders are for #Brexit)
    Source?

    The Federation of Small Businesses surveyed their members: 47% Remain, 41% Leave, 11% undecided.

    If anything I'd expect adding Medium-sized businesses to that poll would increase the Remain result.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    My point is that a lower pound and higher inflation do not necessarily go together as you imply. In any case, the imports would dry up as armageddon hit us and recession took its toll on Britain, according to remain orthodoxy.
    That isn't my argument in this case either. Inflation isn't always caused by a lower pound.

    I have no clue about the state of either economy in 1975, so picking random data points is a bit daft.

    My argument is that in this situation there should be an increase in inflation. That is also the expectation of major banks as well.
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    Amazing how hypocritical posters such as Good bloke, who were vehemently against Scottish independence are now arguing for Brexit. Couldn't make it up lol
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    (Original post by IamJacksContempt)
    Amazing how hypocritical posters such as Good bloke, who were vehemently against Scottish independence are now arguing for Brexit. Couldn't make it up lol
    Perhaps you could explain how supporting one and not the other is hypocritical.

    It seems logical, to me, that the British nation state should be both united and independent.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Perhaps you could explain how supporting one and not the other is hypocritical.

    It seems logical, to me, that the British nation state should be both united and independent.
    The arguments for Britain leaving the EU parallel that of the Scottish independence campaign. The pursuit of "greater democracy" despite the economic drawbacks which, funnily enough you describe as "scaremongering". Hmmm wonder where I've heard that before.
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    (Original post by IamJacksContempt)
    The arguments for Britain leaving the EU parallel that of the Scottish independence campaign. The pursuit of "greater democracy" despite the economic drawbacks which, funnily enough you describe as "scaremongering". Hmmm wonder where I've heard that before.
    The remain campaign rely on short termism, reconciling fearmongering reports on the economy, with even optimistic recovery assumptions, always leads to stronger log term growth with brexit, the most extreme pairings leading to nearly 1% p/a stronger growth.

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    (Original post by IamJacksContempt)
    The arguments for Britain leaving the EU parallel that of the Scottish independence campaign. The pursuit of "greater democracy" despite the economic drawbacks which, funnily enough you describe as "scaremongering". Hmmm wonder where I've heard that before.
    Except that the EU does not represent the bulk of the UK's foreign trade and the proportion is falling, and there are no currency issues in leaving whereas trade with the rest of the UK is, by a huge margin, is the bulk of Scotland's trade and there was no viable strategy for which currency to use without losing a measure of sovereignty.
 
 
 
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