Ask any question about Shia-Islam thread

Announcements Posted on
How helpful is our apprenticeship zone? Have your say with our short survey 02-12-2016
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mercuryman)
    The Shias rejected Abu Bakr RA being fairly elected by the current Muslim community as the new caliph after our prophet pbuh passed away because they believed in family succession and wanted Ali RA to be the successor.
    This is not true. The reason why we adhere to the ahlulbayt asws of Muhammed s.a.w is not because we believe in family succession and thus want Ali ibn abi talib a.s to be the leader after.

    We believe Rasullah s.a.w clearly appointed Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, and clearly told us to follow two weighty things, the Quran, and the Ahlulbayt a.s. We believe in following the ahlulbayt a.s not due to believing in family succession, but because it was a command of the Prophet Muhammed s.a.w, and thus a command of Allah azwj. We believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s should have led after him because it was Muhammed s.a.w who had chosen and appointed him, by command of Allah azwj.

    It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:
    Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (S) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call.

    Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance...The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."•

    Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of ‘Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v 4, p1873, Tradition #36.






    "When the Messenger of Allah (saw) returned from the farewell pilgrimage and stopped at Ghadeer Khum, he said: "It's as if I have received a call and I answered it - and that I am leaving among you two weighty things with one being greater than the other - the book of Allah and the progeny of my Ahlulbayt (as), so look at how they will be left with you after me. Verily they will not separate from each other until they reach me at the Lake-fount".

    Then he said: "Verily Allah is my Mawla (master), and I am the Mawla of every believer". Then he grabbed the hands of 'Ali and said: "So whomsoever I am his Mawla then 'Ali is his Mawla. O Allah, support those who support him and oppose those who oppose him". Then I asked Zayd: Did you hear it from Allah's messenger? He answered: There was no one there who did not see and hear it with their eyes and ears. [Khasa'is Amir al-Mu'mineen, al-Nasa'i, page 96]
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by shazy2014)
    x
    Time only permits me to answer some of the issues brother Zamestaneh has raised. I hope this is of benefit to you and to users in general.

    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    - Hadith of 12 Caliphs after the Prophet SAW - Did not refer to the Ahlul Bayt, and to refer to them would be greatly beyond the text of the hadith
    No shia argues [or should argue] purely based on this hadith, that there are twelve Imams , and that it therefore proves shia Islam. The proof of Shia Islam is based on more solid groundwork, clear ahadith, and clear argumentation. This hadith is thus used only after affirming the clear, for anyone seeking truth to recognise that, despite distortion of ahadith, there was some truth that remained, and some reference to a truth.

    - Hadith of the two weighty things - The Hadith does not instruct Muslims to take their deen and leadership solely from the Ahlul Bayt, rather to be mindful and respectful.
    You know, whenever i ask my brothers in the ahlus-sunnah about this, i often get different replies. On the i-soc thread itself, a few brothers admitted it means following the Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w as preserved by the ahlulbayt. It's really important to understand that these are your intepretations of these matters - and not what the matters are. So let us examine the hadith:

    It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:
    Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (S) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call.

    Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance...The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."•

    Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of ‘Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v 4, p1873, Tradition #36.


    Important points:

    1. The context of the hadith is important. Muhammed s.a.w knows he will soon die, and has this one chance to tell the people of the important things to latch onto after him, in a sense, it is an ultimatum.

    2. Muhammed s.a.w clearly states he is leaving behind two precious things, two hings of vital importance. This denote's that whatever it is Muhammed s.a.w is leaving must have enormous benefit to the muslims, and must be of immense importance. The muslims must be able to truly benefit from these two things - and as Muhammed s.a.w himself is about to die, these are the two things he is leaving behind for his people thus, to latch onto.

    3. The first of them is the Quran, and the second is the Ahlulbayt a.s. You see, Muhammed s.a.w places the Ahlulbayt a.s next to the Quran as two precious things muslims must hold onto for guidance after his death.

    4. Not just once, but three times does he tell the people about the Ahlulbayt a.s


    For any truth-seeking individual, they must objectively analyse this hadith and ask themselves, given the context, the way the words are are arranged, the manner in which things are said, does it really only mean to look after the Ahlulbayt a.s , and be good to them ? Does it not clearly mean, after the death of Muhammed s.a.w, in the vacuum that then ensues, he is commanding the Ummah to latch onto two precious things, two forms of guidance, two weighty things that will be of enormous benefit, and not merely a matter of 'just look after my family' ?

    We find that you have many sheikhs in the ahlus-sunnah who also agree with me on this, and would disagree with you, i highly recommend you to watch this video of a sheikh from the ahlus-sunnah:







    - Ali RA named his child after his 'enemy' (according to Shia) Abu Bakr which does not make sense.
    Abu Bakr is a Qunyah , note a name. No-one names their child Abu Bakr, and Abu Bakr's father did not even name his child Abu Bakr himself. The son of Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s who was given the Qunyah 'Abu Bakr' - a very famous and common Qunyah at that time (there were many, many 'Abu Bakr's) does not mean Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s named his son that.

    With regards to actual naming of other sons , I can name my child George , for example, a very common name in the UK (i know i wouldn't, but this is for illustration). Am i naming him after George Bush?



    - The hadith of Fatimah whoever angers Fatimah angers the Prophet SAW - This hadith was ironically stated when Ali RA expressed a desire to marry the daughter of Abu Lahab (the hated kafir uncle if the Prophet SAW), so do Shia believe Ali is hated by the Prophet SAW? Ofc they don't, so they are inconsistent.
    This argument does not really hold. We reject that Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s angered Fatima a.s. We also do not need that hadith you speak of to prove that angering Fatima a.s is like Angering Rasulullah s.a.w. It would be the case even if that hadith was not accepted, as we find many ahadith about the love Rasulullah s.a.w had for Fatima a.s

    However, for sake of argument lets say that did happen. Once can argue that Fatima a.s would have forgiven Ali ibn abi talib a.s and quickly gotten over it in a matter of days, if not weeks.

    As for Hazrat Abu Bakr, not only did Fatima a.s get angry with him, she stopped speaking to him until she died, died angry with him, and was buried secretly at night. This is all contained in Saheeh Al Bukhari:

    Saheeh Al Bukhari

    "She(Fatima) forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself. During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people. After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him. So he sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months."

    Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Messenger"
    http://sunnah.com/bukhari/57/2



    - There were no chains of narration for Naghul Balagha - an 'authentic' Shia collection of sermons by Ali RA during his caliphate. It is a staple book for Shia but does not meet even basic hadith standards, having a disconnected chain of narrators by a few hundred years.
    This shows , with due respect, a lack of understanding about nahjul balagha, and shia books in general.

    Firstly, nahjul balagha is not regarded as saheeh or an 'authentic' collection of sermons. Secondly, while the chains of the individual sermons and narrations are not contained in the book, many of the narrations, sermons, do have chains and these chains are found in other sources, and other classical shia books of hadith.

    A number of the narrations and sermons are even agreed upon by the ahlus-sunnah, and are taken from sunni sources, and used by sunni's in their own historical works and books

    Furthermore, nahjul balagha does not rank in our top four books of ahadith. They are Al Kafi, manyaradul faqih, etc.

    Eitherway, it is a wonderful book, it has its place and position, each sermon and narration and hadith is examined not just by isnaad (which we can find for many) but also matn - content, among many other factors.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    This is not true. The reason why we adhere to the ahlulbayt asws of Muhammed s.a.w is not because we believe in family succession and thus want Ali ibn abi talib a.s to be the leader after.

    We believe Rasullah s.a.w clearly appointed Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s, and clearly told us to follow two weighty things, the Quran, and the Ahlulbayt a.s. We believe in following the ahlulbayt a.s not due to believing in family succession, but because it was a command of the Prophet Muhammed s.a.w, and thus a command of Allah azwj. We believe that Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s should have led after him because it was Muhammed s.a.w who had chosen and appointed him, by command of Allah azwj.

    It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:
    Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (S) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call.

    Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance...The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."•

    Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of ‘Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v 4, p1873, Tradition #36.






    "When the Messenger of Allah (saw) returned from the farewell pilgrimage and stopped at Ghadeer Khum, he said: "It's as if I have received a call and I answered it - and that I am leaving among you two weighty things with one being greater than the other - the book of Allah and the progeny of my Ahlulbayt (as), so look at how they will be left with you after me. Verily they will not separate from each other until they reach me at the Lake-fount".

    Then he said: "Verily Allah is my Mawla (master), and I am the Mawla of every believer". Then he grabbed the hands of 'Ali and said: "So whomsoever I am his Mawla then 'Ali is his Mawla. O Allah, support those who support him and oppose those who oppose him". Then I asked Zayd: Did you hear it from Allah's messenger? He answered: There was no one there who did not see and hear it with their eyes and ears. [Khasa'is Amir al-Mu'mineen, al-Nasa'i, page 96]

    Thank you for the response brother. But I didn't post that in this thread. I wanted you to answer Scythia 's question.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mercuryman)
    Thank you for the response brother. But I didn't post that in this thread. I wanted you to answer s question.
    You are welcome. I brought it on this thread as this thread is about questions about shia Islam, and it would be useful to have the answer on here also.

    I don't curse or abuse any of the mentioned names. Whatever someone decides to do privately, is between them and Allah (azwj), according to shariah law, even something as haram as homosexual-sex , if done privately, is not within the bounds of shariah to punish, and it will be on Allah azwj to do so in the hereafter. It is on Allah azwj to punish those who do wrong. It is also not permitted to start telling people to privately curse them, and encourage it, and so i do not.

    As i stated, to insult or abuse Hazrat Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman is forbidden. So when discussing why i disagree with actions they have done, i will do so in a respectful manner recognizing that for some of my brothers in the ahlus-sunnah, these figure's are highly revered.

    If you love Hazrat Abu Bakr, you will empower the message i am bringing, and not of a minority of shia's who sadly do abuse these figures. Give power to my voice, not theirs. Unless ofcourse, you would rather many layman shia's are influenced by those people and misguided into abusing, insulting and so on.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    You are managing two threads' worth of responses, so take your time and do not overwhelm yourself inshaAllah
    JazakAllah Khayr for understanding.

    Just to add, my posts in response are never personal against you. It's all academic. I enjoy discussing these issues with you, welcome disageement, and hope we can continue the academic tone and nature of our discussion, no matter how much we may end up disagreeing on either sources, methods, used.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    ibn Abi Talib a.s had a God-given right to succeed Muhammed s.a.w, and that Muhammed s.a.w had appointed him.
    Can you please provide me with a single clear instruction from the quran informing of this right.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Salamunalaykum,

    I've written (this is my own work, based on the works of others, and hence not just a copy and paste), an answer to the issue of Ali ibn abi Talib naming his son Abu Bakr.

    You may read this reply during Eid, and hence i want to wish you Eid Mubarak! May Allah azwj have mercy on us, accept our good deeds, and guide us all.

    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    x
    (Original post by King7)
    x


    Also could you please demonstrate that the kunya Abu Bakr was common amongst the people? I do appreciate that might be difficult since there were no statistics of names and nicknames back then, but perhaps you could show me examples of multiple Abu Bakrs during the time of the Prophet (SAW), before the time of the Prophetic call, and very soon after?

    [/QUOTE]





    Abu Bakr, son of Ali (r.a)

    My response:

    Before formulating any answer, it is necessary to first try to understand what 'Abu Bakr' means, and what the title in a wider sense, denotes. Firstly, Abu Bakr is a Qunya. It is a title given to somebody. Abu Bakr's real name was not actually Abu Bakr. Rather, we hear reports that his name was Abdullah, some say also say Atiq. That is what his father named him, and Abu Bakr was a title given to him after.

    What does Abu Bakr mean ?

    "A kunya may also be a nickname expressing the attachment of an individual to a certain thing, as in Abu Bakr, "father of the camel foal", given because of this person's love for camels."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunya_(Arabic)

    It's not entirely surprising for a Qunya to develop for those living in arabia at that time, where the use of Camels were really widespread and an almost essential part of day to day life arabs, which made reference to love of camels, or being the father of a Camel Foal. We find that there is also another Abu Bakr - a notable one, in books of history, who converted to Islam and later apostates, who was called Abu Bakr bin Sha’oub. According to Ibn Hajar (quoting Ibn Hisham). Abu Bakr bin Sha'oub also fought against the muslims in the battle of Badr.

    You find anti-shia websites make a rather logically erroneous claim that, because we only find two famous Abu Bakr's in books of history [two that sunni's will agree on], it means that these names were only exclusively used for these two, and Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s either named his son Abu Bakr after the kaffir apostate, or the first Caliph. And thus, they argue, we shia's defy reason to suggest he would have named it after the apostate, and hence, it must surely have been a name for Abu Bakr.

    There are a number of problems with this line of reasoning:

    1. The very fact there is another prominent Abu Bakr is of great importance. It means that indeed, Abu Bakr was not a Qunya that was only ever associated with the son of Abdallāh bin Abī Quḥāfah, rather it was given to someone unrelated to him, unconnected to him, who may also due to his day to day life, his work , or any other reason, develop the nick name of Abu Bakr (father of the young camel). It lends evidence to the notion that in a land where camels were so prevalent, it is not surprising for others to also be dubbed with this nick-name.

    2. It is highly possible that there may have been, in those days, many others across Arabia , who reared camels, and perhaps due to this, were subsequently given the nick-name of 'Abu Bakr ' , however, were not as notable, and not as famous, not as central to Islam and not as prominent. You see, not only do we not know the actual names of many of the companions of Muhammed s.a.w (large swathes are unknown in name), we also do not really know the names of the majority of arabs at the time. All having names enables us to do is know the prominent ones, and it lends evidence that such names were also common among others who were not as prominent and whose names are not recorded.

    3. It is also possible that, due to the prominence of the famous or notable Abu Bakr's, the nick-name became more popular. If you consider , again, that we are talking about a land where camels are prevalent, it may have been the fact that those who already had the nick name of Abu Bakr (father of a young camel) may have caused arabian culture to begin to adopt such a title/nick name more commonly for those perhaps who had a vocation where they worked with camels closely, or were known for their love of camels. This may not have been due to naming people in honour of Abu Bakr (though it did occur i won't doubt), but rather, the idea of giving a nick name of Abu Bakr to people who were associated with camels/young camels as a nick name , in and of itself may have been more popular.

    4. According to some, (another) Abu Bakr son of Hazim al-Ansari who had lived in the time of both the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) and Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s was an Arab originally from Yemen and a companion of Ali ibn abi Talib a.s

    4. The nick-name 'Abu Hurairah' i.e father of cats, would have in my own humble opinion, been of a greater weight in proving exclusivity, rather than father of a young camel, in arabia, a land full of camels. Even then, it would not be sufficient.

    Did Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s name his son Abu Bakr?

    In todays society, you often find people naming their children Abu Bakr. Thus, they believe Abu Bakr has always been a name you are given at birth. Many shia's and sunni's , and perhaps even non-muslims who study the life of the first Caliph themselves may be surprised to find out that his real name was not Abu Bakr. His father did not name him Abu Bakr - as stated at the beginning of this post.

    The crux of this argument relies on the notion that Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s literally named his son 'Abu Bakr'. If one can prove that actually, his birth name was not Abu Bakr, it lends evidence to the notion that this was a Qunya - a title, given to him, and not what he was named from birth. The anti-shia website claims that the fact that Abu Bakr was a Qunya, and not a name, means that by Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s naming his son Abu Bakr, it almost exclusively means it was him. I have already touched on the Qunya of Abu Bakr, and how even then it would not be the case.
    However, do we have evidence that the birth name of Abu Bakr, the son of Ali ibn Abi talib a.s, was actually not Abu Bakr [thus lending evidence to the argument that it was a Qunya later given]?

    There is certianly evidence to suggest Abu Bakr was not a birth-name
    There is disagreement in terms of the actual name of Abu Bakr the son of Ali ibn abi talib a.s, suffice to say, the main point is, there is evidence that was not his birth name.

    Ibn al-Sabbagh al-Maliki reported: "…and Muhammad al-Asghar whose secondary name (i.e. Kunya) was Abu Bakr and [another son of Amir al-Mu'mineen] Abdullah. They had been martyred with their brother Hussain in Karbala. Their mother is Laila daughter of Masoud…" (al-Fusul al-Muhimmah, vol. 1 p. 644)

    Al-Masudi, a famous historian, has reported that Ali ibn Abi Talib had: "eleven sons, al-Hassan and al-Hussain their mother was Fatima daughter of Allah's Apostle peace be upon him and his family" further on he mentioned: "…and Muhammad al-Asghar, his secondary name was Abu Bakr…" (al-Tanbih wa-l-Ashraf, p. 258).

    This renowned shia scholar, al-Sheikh al-Mufid has said: "Amir al-Mu'mineen may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him had a total of twenty-seven sons and daughters…" further on he mentioned: "Muhammad al-Asghar, whose secondary name was Abu Bakr, and Ubaidullah, both had been martyred alongside their brother Hussain peace be upon him in Taff, their mother is Laila daughter of Masoud al-Darimiyyah." (al-Irshad, vol. 1, p. 354).

    Abu Hayyan al-Tawhidi: "…from Laila daughter of Masoud [Imam Ali] had Ubaidullah who is Abu Bakr…" (al-Basa'ir wa-l-Dhakha'ir, vol. 1, p. 214).

    Ibn A'tham al-Kufi states: "… al-Hussain's brothers thereupon came forward. They were intent on sacrificing their lives for his sake.Abu Bakr son of Ali, whose name was Abdullah, was the first to come forward. His mother was Laila daughter of Masoud…" (al-Futouh, vol. 5, p. 112).

    al-Mujdi has reported: "Abu Bakr, whose name was Abdullahwas killed during the [battle] of Taff along with Abu Ali, who is Ubaidullah. Their mother is [Laila] al-Nahsha'iya al-Darimiyyah (i.e. Laila daughter of Masoud)." (Ansab al-Talibiyyin, p. 198).

    Closing points:

    Just as Abu Bakr's father may not have given him the Qunya Abu Bakr , nor the father of Abu Bakr bin Sha’oub named him Abu Bakr, nor any of the other Abu Bakrs, who had this nick-name at that time, before that time, and after that time, similarly, Ali ibn Abi Talib a.s named his son either Muhammed Al-Asghar, Abaidullah, or Abdullah. That was the birth name given, and the Qunya was not necessarily given to him by Ali ibn Abi talib a.s, and thus, the Qunya may have been something later given to Muhammed Al Asghar/ Abaidullah/ Abdullah.

    Furthermore, the very fact the term 'Abu Bakr' means 'father of the young camel' in a land full of camels, coupled with the fact there are names of others who also held this Qunya (nick-name per say), means that it is also highly likely many others not prominent or notable who we do not know the names of (majority of the sahaba, and majority of arabs at the time) may have also held such a Qunya. If you consider this in terms of probability, in a population , the chances of an Abu Bakr being notable is of a certian percent, dependent on the number of Abu Bakrs dubbed with such a Qunya at the time, and a number of complex factors. Thus, those Abu Bakrs we do then know , and do have the names of, only means of the population of Abu Bakrs existing, these are the ones who gained notability. It thus means it is highly likely many other Abu Bakrs existed at the time , and a few then gained that notability. Only having a number of Abu Bakrs recorded/noted down absoutely does not mean only that number existed at the time.

    It is not difficult to see that in a land full of camels, why one would be given that nick-name. Additionally, it is also not difficult to see why the qunya Abu Bakr perhaps - and i am not saying this is the case- but perhaps grew prominence as i argued before, not out of honour of Abu Bakr, but because a famous personality who has a nick name may cause culture of the time to begin to make such a nick-name more popular. Yes, it could be that in cases it was in honour of the caliph, but it is highly likely that again, in a land full of camels, with very famous people having a certain nick name that is fairly concordant with life at the time (living in a land full of camels) the nick name itself became more popular as a way to perhaps refer to people who had a love for camels, or worked with camels.

    Thus, for anyone to say that Ali ibn Abi Talib named his son Abu Bakr, is a false claim. Rather, he named his son Muhammed Al Asghar/ Abaidullah/ Abdullah, and the Qunya 'Abu Bakr' was later given. For anyone to go even further and ignore this, and claim that he named his son Abu Bakr, in honour of the first Caliph, as the absolute truth, makes an even more unsubstantiated claim ignoring the nuances of this paticular discussion.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Salamunalaykum! Eid Mubarak brother!

    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    It was a kunya but later on developed into a name.
    So my question still stands, and I'd appreciate any references of his name.
    ps: if it is a kunya then it is even worse (how can offspring of the infallible develop the characteristics of a fallible usurper)
    If you refer to the post i have shown earlier, i conclusively prove that Abubakr Ibn Ali was not named that as a name by his father, Ali ibn abi Talib a.s, and rather still at that point in time, it was a Qunya.

    With due respect, i believe your use of fallible/infallible is more aimed at in a sense, word play, than anything else. The son of Adam pbuh, and the son of Nuh, pbuh, both sons came from pure fathers, and were astray. Abu Bakr, the son of Ali , however, did not necessarily have to be 'pure' simply due to his father either. However, may Allah azwj be pleased with him, for he was a brave matyr, who layed out his life to defend Hussain a.s, on the plains of Kerbala, against the forces of the handpicked son of Muawiyah , the tyrant, Yazid.

    Directly addressing your point, the Qunya Abu Bakr means father of young camels. Others in Arabia also had this title. It's not surprising, that in a land where you are so dependent on camels, a nick name of father of young camels is used. Therefore there is absolutely no relevance to having this nick name, and resembling someone who had that nick name, or that it means you have the characteristics of that individual.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    considers shia scholars/sheikhs as kaffirs, shia's as mushriks/polytheists, and saved only from kufr by virtue of being a layman.
    Salaam

    I will attempt to address other responses in due course, but based on this section of a quote, you reminded me of a matter I wished to clarify:

    Irrespective of your personal beliefs (which you might have perhaps explained on ShiaChat), could you tell me if:

    (1) Asking Muhammad (SAW) or the Ahlul Bayt *directly* to ask Allah for something on your behalf is shirk? This is different to asking Allah to accept the dua by His love for these people.
    (2) The Shia ullema said this is permissible or haram?
    (3) The Shia ullema clasify those who engage in this method of dua as Mushrikoon?
    (4) Believing that the Prophet (SAW) or any of the Ahlul Bayt can answer duas by the permission of Allah is a part of Shia belief; what has the Shia ullema/classical books said about this?

    I understand these questions might perhaps be sensitive due to the implications of some answers, but I ask out of genuine interest to understand Shi'ism from the eyes of those who follow it.

    Thank you

    Edit:

    Q. Is it original Shia belief that the Quran has been changed; is the Quran we have today agreed by Shia to be the revelations which Muhammad (SAW) finalised (in the exact number and arrangement of verses and the arrangement of Surahs)?
    Q. Is anyone who believes that the Quran has been altered in number of verses, arrangement of verses and arrangement of Surahs a kafir?

    Q. How can Shia hadith even be trusted when Shia rijjal studies started so late and is only a shadow compared to its Sunnis rijjali counterpart, and also parts of Shia rijjal comes from Sunni rijjal?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    x
    Edit:
    Great questions, and you're right, for a long while i was a firm opposor of istigatha in this sense. I'll update you and give you answers, because it is an area i have been obsessed with, as you may guess.

    I'll also address the Quran questions , inshAllah.

    Also, take your time in the answers. We're discussing too many topics on far too threads, so you can priorotise what you want to answer.

    I just want to add this to my previous answer about naming:

    I take you to Kerbala, where ubdayallah ibn Ziyad was the commander at the time, leading to the slaughter of Hussain a.s, and much of the family of Hussain a.s, and Hasan a.s , and the absolute persecution of them. Imam Zain Al Abideen the fourth Imam a.s, was the father of Imam Muhammed Baqir a.s. One must note that he must have seen Ubaydallah, the commander, and his visciousness, and history tells us the sorrow of Kerbala had such a profound effect on the fourth Imam a.s, and there is absolutely no doubt Imam Muhammed Baqir a.s would have absolutely known the man who led the absolute brutal charge against his grandfather, Hussain a.s, was none other than Ubaydallah ibn Ziyad.

    In Saheeh Bukhari, they state:
    "Anas bin Malik said, "The head of Al-Husain was brought to 'Ubaidullah bin Ziyad and was put in a tray, and then Ibn Ziyad started playing with a stick at the nose and mouth of Al-Husain's head and saying something about his handsome features." Anas then said (to him), "Al-Husain resembled the Prophet more than the others did." Anas added, "His (i.e. Al-Husain's) hair was dyed with Wasma (i.e. a kind of plant used as a dye)"

    Yet, we find Imam Muhammed Baqir a.s naming one of his sons Ubaydullah , the son of the Imam a.s was Ubaydullah ibn Muhammed Al Baqir

    : Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Baqir#

    Not only, that, we find Imam Musa Al Kadhim a.s, also naming one of his sons Ubaydullah/dillah: Ubaydull/dillah ibn Musa Al Kadhim
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_al-Kadhim

    Did the Imams a.s name their sons after the famous commander who led the forces , which by his command slaughtered Hussain a.s, his sahaba r.a and his family? And then proceeded to play with the decapitated head of Imam Hussain a.s?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    There are certian names today, which are cultural names one has. For many english speaking people, they name their children George, or Tony. This does not mean they are naming their kids after George Bush, or Tony Blair, many name their children this, but are firmly against George or Tony.

    Only after decades or centuries, - but perhaps a century or more- did the name begin to transition from being simply cultural, to being strongly associated with a personality and only that personality.

    In todays age, naming your child Umar or Uthman almost always will be linked to the Caliph, Umar, and Uthman.

    However, in those days, we know it was almost certian these were common names, people were named Umar and Uthman before Umar and Uthman, after him, during his life time, unconnected to him etc.

    Perhaps you may have had people who named their sons in honour of these two, but in those days, no-one would have immediately jumped to the conclusion they have named their sons after the two caliphs, but rather two quite common names.

    In todays society however, due to the prominence these two have gained, the respect, the names Uthman and Umar are almost exclusively linked to the two Caliphs.

    As i have shown in my post, shia's everywhere in Muharam condemn the wicked tyrant, Ubaydallah Ibn Ziyad, the butcher of Hussain a.s, and the one who played with his decapitated head with a stick. I have yet to see a shia name their sons Ubaydallah. Yet, the grandson of Hussain a.s and the fith Imam a.s named one of his sons Ubaydallah a.s, and his grandson, the seventh Imam a.s also named one of his sons Ubaydallah.
    In those days, it was a common name, and no-one will argue they named them after arguably the most notorious ubaydallah. However today, culture has changed and if you name your son Ubaydallah, it is really linked to the tyrant.

    In shia hadith, we find some called 'Yazid', and are followers of the Ahlulbayt asws. Many Umars too, and even Muawiyahs afaik, and many Abu Bakr's. Some are shia's, are followers of the Imams a.s and narrate ahadith from them.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zamestaneh)
    It's okay, none of us view Yassir Al Habib as a model Shia :lol: The guy is a nutjob of the most extreme nature, and it is unfortunate that he gives Shia a bad name (and some people even listen to him); I would rather critically appraise Shi'ism for it's merits and demerits more fairly than base my judgement on someone as foul as him
    Excellent brother. You know, Yassir Habib also goes after shia's[reports are he performed L'anah on Ay. Khamanei, according to sources. He's badmouthed him in his video's, and a number of our ulema have condemned him]. Accusing Umm Aisha of commiting adultery, and killing Rasullah s.a.w , and other absurd things just causes shia's to lose credibility due to him.

    My sunni cousin for a while thought i shared his views and beliefs and methodology, until i told him - No, just no.

    I owe you a reply on the jaysh al fatah post, and i've been doing a lot of research on it.

    We are covering a lot of topics over many threads, so don't feel like you need to reply today, tommorow or even next week.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Excellent brother. You know, Yassir Habib also goes after shia's[reports are he performed L'anah on Ay. Khamanei, according to sources. He's badmouthed him in his video's, and a number of our ulema have condemned him]. Accusing Umm Aisha of commiting adultery, and killing Rasullah s.a.w , and other absurd things just causes shia's to lose credibility due to him.

    My sunni cousin for a while thought i shared his views and beliefs and methodology, until i told him - No, just no.

    I owe you a reply on the jaysh al fatah post, and i've been doing a lot of research on it.

    We are covering a lot of topics over many threads, so don't feel like you need to reply today, tommorow or even next week.
    Is it true u guys carry out Nikah mut'ah, (temporary marriage)?
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Just to add, In shia hadith, we find some called 'Yazid', and are followers of the Ahlulbayt asws. Many Umars too, and even Muawiyahs afaik, and many Abu Bakr's. Many afaik are shia's, are followers of the Imams a.s and narrate ahadith from them.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Just to add, In shia hadith, we find some called 'Yazid', and are followers of the Ahlulbayt asws. Many Umars too, and even Muawiyahs afaik, and many Abu Bakr's. Many afaik are shia's, are followers of the Imams a.s and narrate ahadith from them.
    Salaam.
    So you don't believe in that the name carries the significance and weight of who was named with it.
    Hence to you the name Mohamed is just a name that carries no significance of the one you name after.
    Therefore the name hamaan is also a good name? would you name your child hamaan?
    What about Qaroon, name your children qaroon yes? no? why? It is just a name right?
    Or even Hitler, it just a name, its been such a long time ago?
    The names hold a significance, they hold love/ emulation, they hold respect.
    Would you name your children after someone who has wronged you, not only that someone that has wronged the entire ummah,(allegedly)
    Someone that has disobeyed the direct orders of the prophet (allegedly)
    Someone that has disobeyed the direct orders of God (allegedly)
    Someone that caused the death of your wife (allegedly)
    I could go on with the list of accusations labled against Abu-bakar (ra)
    And yet Ali was comfortable with:
    -best case scenario: naming him directly after abu-bakar
    -worst case senario: attaching to him the kunya of abu-bakar (ie developed characteristics of the man)
    And it is not just Abubakar bin Ali that has a name of the 3 khaliifs:
    -Abu-bakr bin Ali
    -Umar bin Ali
    -Uthman bin Ali
    Do you see a pattern forming?!
    I know you might come back with: others were named these names, and here is my answer
    1-these 3 were the most famous and well known of their names
    2- mostly others took up those names in emulation of the great 3
    4- Why would I risk putting my self and kids into disrepute by using these supposed enemies and evil men who caused the death of my wife (the mother of the kids) I mean how cruel to name my children after the supposed conspirators who caused the death of my kids. What would the kids think (even if others are named these names) finding out they share names with their mother's (supposed) killers.
    Was Ali ra cruel?
    What about naming after/even sharing a name with the supposed greatest wrong doers who defied both prophet and divine will.
    What will that say to my followers?
    would it not create doubt ( shubuhaat)?
    What happened to the endless knowledge of the unseen that Ali had? or his knowledge of the future?

    But the Buck doesn't end there.
    AL-Hasaan my Allah be pleased with him out of 8 boys named two:
    -Abubakar
    -Umar
    Al-Husain may Allah be pleased with him also had sons named:
    -Abu-bakar
    -Umar

    Same questions apply. Regardless of how spread these names are ( go back to my earlier argument that these names became widespread due to the fame and love of the 3 and people took these names in emulation of the 3)
    How cruel can the two be naming their kids after the murderers of their mother, usurpers of their father, those disobedient of god and prophet....etc
    What message does that send to the mumi'ns (shia) and to the laymen (sunni)
    Does it not cause doubt and create many shubuhaat? Where has the knowledge of the unseen gone?

    And the buck doesn't stop there either it keeps rolling.
    -Al-Hassan bin Al-Hasaan bin Ali also had a son named Abu-bakar
    -Musa bin Ja'afar bin Al-Kadim also had children named Abu-bakar, Umar and even Aisha.
    It makes no sense and your answer so far quenches nothing brother.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Just to add, In shia hadith, we find some called 'Yazid', and are followers of the Ahlulbayt asws. Many Umars too, and even Muawiyahs afaik, and many Abu Bakr's. Many afaik are shia's, are followers of the Imams a.s and narrate ahadith from them.
    Ques2:
    Do you mind listing those men who narrate hadith and are accepted to be thiqaat by shia rijal men?
    What are their gradings, and how many sahih narrations are they in?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Please explain the Sunnis hateing Shia and vice-versa?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Napp)
    Please explain the Sunnis hateing Shia and vice-versa?
    No one should hate the other, and no difference between both sides could or should cause any bloodshed.
    Any differences can and should be resolved in amicable discussion.
    Else let each other be.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    No one should hate the other, and no difference between both sides could or should cause any bloodshed.
    Any differences can and should be resolved in amicable discussion.
    Else let each other be.
    Indeed buttheres a huge golf between ideals and reality ...
    I was aiming at situations like the sectarian violence in iraq etc.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by PrincessBO$$)
    Is it true u guys carry out Nikah mut'ah, (temporary marriage)?
    Yeah,I remember reading about this on the bbc,its pretty much dating isn`t it ?
 
 
 
Write a reply… Reply
Submit reply

Register

Thanks for posting! You just need to create an account in order to submit the post
  1. this can't be left blank
    that username has been taken, please choose another Forgotten your password?
  2. this can't be left blank
    this email is already registered. Forgotten your password?
  3. this can't be left blank

    6 characters or longer with both numbers and letters is safer

  4. this can't be left empty
    your full birthday is required
  1. Oops, you need to agree to our Ts&Cs to register
  2. Slide to join now Processing…

Updated: December 1, 2016
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Today on TSR
Poll
Would you rather have...?
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Quick reply
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.