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    (Original post by welshiee)
    Honestly, I don't and I don't trust the Tories one bit. I'm hoping for Labour to kick on and take advantage of the current disarray in the Tory camp. However, its a step in the right direction.
    I agree with you.
    But if that doesn't happen, then you've taken the power from Juncker and given it straight to..Johnson? Gove? The despicable George Osborne? On what planet are they the voices of the working class? I do not trust that their rewriting of the laws are going to protect our workers one bit either.
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    (Original post by tanyapotter)
    I agree with you.
    But if that doesn't happen, then you've taken the power from Juncker and given it straight to..Johnson? Gove? The despicable George Osborne? On what planet are they the voices of the working class? I do not trust that their rewriting of the laws are going to protect our workers one bit either.
    I do not trust the EU Commission or the Westminster elite. I want them all removed and replaced with a socialist Labour PM.
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    (Original post by Fantastic Fan)
    This is how democracy works.

    You cast your vote, wait for the results, and accept it.

    You can't protest a democratic vote, doing that makes you a fascist, so get over it.
    Quite extraordinary how many people today are throwing around the word fascist without understanding what it means.
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    Democracy. Yet scotland voted remain. As did ireland im pretty sure. But just because england and wales voted leave, we have to as well? Does that seem fair? Im all for democracy but this wasnt handled right.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Quite extraordinary how many people today are throwing around the word fascist without understanding what it means.


    So you're saying opposing a democratic vote isn't a sign of fascism?
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    (Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes)
    Yet there are two opportunities to vote and a House of commons vote (which truly seals off the idea of a referendum being advisory/non-binding)?
    If one outcome requires all three votes, one with a qualified majority, and the other simply needs to "win" one then there is an inherent bias towards the latter

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    (Original post by MamzZass)
    Democracy. Yet scotland voted remain. As did ireland im pretty sure. But just because england and wales voted leave, we have to as well? Does that seem fair? Im all for democracy but this wasnt handled right.
    Care to take a look at your passport and tell me what country is named on the front? The idea that once country voting to remain means we should remain is fundamentally undemocratic, it means 1 person could overthrow over 45m; or how about we flip it the other way, why should Scotland and NI force England and Wales to stay?

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    (Original post by welshiee)
    I do not trust the EU Commission or the Westminster elite. I want them all removed and replaced with a socialist Labour PM.
    Jeremy Corbyn will not gain enough support for that to happen because his stance is so ambiguous. We don't even know if we're going to have another general election; it could just be that we're left with an unelected Prime Minister. Wouldn't that be ironic as hell?
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    (Original post by Fantastic Fan)
    So you're saying opposing a democratic vote isn't a sign of fascism?
    No, not when the vote should never have happened in the first place. Believing that there are limits to democracy is not the same thing as rejecting democracy (and it's probably also worth adding at this point that rejecting democracy is not the same thing as fascism, you're thinking of authoritarianism). There's nothing fascist about believing that giving a vote to the public about an issue that the majority are not informed about should be invalid.
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    (Original post by MamzZass)
    Democracy. Yet scotland voted remain. As did ireland im pretty sure. But just because england and wales voted leave, we have to as well? Does that seem fair? Im all for democracy but this wasnt handled right.
    Yes, we are the United Kingdom, perhaps London should become its own country, but then East London would have to become its own country because they wanted to leave, but then Newham would have to become its own country because they voted to stay, but then Mr Smith at number 42 would have to become his own country because he voted to leave. It's just an absurdist argument.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    No, not when the vote should never have happened in the first place. Believing that there are limits to democracy is not the same thing as rejecting democracy (and it's probably also worth adding at this point that rejecting democracy is not the same thing as fascism, you're thinking of authoritarianism). There's nothing fascist about believing that giving a vote to the public about an issue that the majority are not informed about should be invalid.
    Why should it never have happened lol, because you think that the only opinion that counts is yours?

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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    These people telling us to "accept the democratic decision" are only supporting democracy because it benefits them. It's not democratic to lie and manipulate the public with millions of pounds of advertising made up facts, and they'd be sure to tell us that if they'd lost.
    So the £9 million the government spent of tax payers money on a bias remain leaflet delivered to all homes wasn't a form of manipulation ?

    Your statement screams of a fascist ideology !
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    No, not when the vote should never have happened in the first place. Believing that there are limits to democracy is not the same thing as rejecting democracy (and it's probably also worth adding at this point that rejecting democracy is not the same thing as fascism, you're thinking of authoritarianism). There's nothing fascist about believing that giving a vote to the public about an issue that the majority are not informed about should be invalid.


    Looks like you're another one of those "the people were misinformed" people.

    Listen here, do you realise that the EU referendum vote was actually the record highest amount of voters in history according to the Electoral commission?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7095146.html

    So by your logic, if this vote was done by misinformed people then so were all the other elections done on UK soil, so my advice to you is to stop complaining and accept reality. The majority of the votes weren't invalid just because you say so
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Why should it never have happened lol, because you think that the only opinion that counts is yours?

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    Because this is an incredibly complex decision which most of the electorate isn't in the slightest bit informed about. If there was a reasonable belief that the majority of the electorate would put genuine effort into understanding the complexity of the issue and would listen to expert advice then there wouldn't be an issue. But this clearly isn't the case, the majority of the justifications people have used for leaving the EU have either been reasons that have nothing to do with the EU, reasons that won't change by leaving the EU, reasons that are the fault of the UK government and angry people who don't want "to be told what to do by Brussels", despite not having the first clue of what that actually means. Representative Democracy exists because of the understanding that politics is complicated and key policy decisions - and this is policy, not a constitutional issue - should be made by people whose job it is to understand all of the facts and to make decisions based on evidence.
    (Original post by Fantastic Fan)
    Looks like you're another one of those "the people were misinformed" people.Listen here, do you realise that the EU referendum vote was actually the record highest amount of voters in history according to the Electoral commission?http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7095146.htmlSo by your logic, if this vote was done by misinformed people then so were all the other votes done on UK soil, so my advice to you is to stop complaining and accept reality. The majority of the votes weren't invalid just because you say so
    There being a high voter turnout has absolutely nothing to do with people being informed. There is also a massive difference between a general election, where you choose a group of politicians based on your values on a relatively short-term basis, and a decision like this which is highly technical and permanent. It has also repeatedly been shown that the electorate doesn't even understand basic facts about the issue. The Leave campaign also constantly lied and made promises that they knew they couldn't keep, and have already started to admit this. I do not understand why you think a vote on this basis is valid.
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    (Original post by Fantastic Fan)
    Looks like you're another one of those "the people were misinformed" people.

    Listen here, do you realise that the EU referendum vote was actually the record highest amount of voters in history according to the Electoral commission?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7095146.html

    So by your logic, if this vote was done by misinformed people then so were all the other votes done on UK soil, so my advice to you is to stop complaining and accept reality. The majority of the votes weren't invalid just because you say so
    What are you even saying? None of that made any sense.

    The Vote Leave campaign advertised anti-EU lies. It's as simple as that.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    No, not when the vote should never have happened in the first place. Believing that there are limits to democracy is not the same thing as rejecting democracy (and it's probably also worth adding at this point that rejecting democracy is not the same thing as fascism, you're thinking of authoritarianism). There's nothing fascist about believing that giving a vote to the public about an issue that the majority are not informed about should be invalid.
    Rejecting democracy is fascism as you are disagreeing with the majority of the public and rejecting their view as it does not adhere to yours ! Study left wing fascism and you will see you tick tose boxes !

    The public have been informed on this vote for about 2 years or so now. They were fully informed. Their have been numerous debates and publications for both sides. The referendum was announced long in advance. On the day people chose whether to go to the poles and vote or not. They voted to leave ! That is democracy in action I don't know where you have been if you have missed all this ?.

    As a sideline did you know only 36% of 18-25year olds actually bothered to vote !!
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    What are you even saying? None of that made any sense.

    The Vote Leave campaign advertised anti-EU lies. It's as simple as that.
    Exactly what were the lies then apart from the bus misconception?

    And are you really going to ignorantly say that the remain voters didn't also shove lies and eu propaganda down our throats?
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    No, not when the vote should never have happened in the first place. Believing that there are limits to democracy is not the same thing as rejecting democracy (and it's probably also worth adding at this point that rejecting democracy is not the same thing as fascism, you're thinking of authoritarianism). There's nothing fascist about believing that giving a vote to the public about an issue that the majority are not informed about should be invalid.
    There was overwhelming support for the referendum to settle the question, all of the major parties backed the principle of a referendum and 89% of the public wanted one.
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    (Original post by DoctorDC)
    So the £9 million the government spent of tax payers money on a bias remain leaflet delivered to all homes wasn't a form of manipulation ?

    Your statement screams of a fascist ideology !
    No, because those leaflets weren't full of lies.

    (Original post by Fantastic Fan)
    Exactly what were the lies then apart from the bus misconception?

    And are you really going to ignorantly say that the remain voters didn't also shove lies and eu propaganda down our throats?
    I keep asking what lies the remain voters told, and nobody's delivered so far. I keep hearing a lot of things from leavers who clam up when asked to explain. Maybe you can enlighten me?

    All quotes taken from http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/, the official website for the Vote Leave campaign.
    The UK's official EU budget is about £350 million a week. That’s about the same as the cost of building a new NHS hospital every week. We get less than half of this money back, and we have no control over how it’s spent – that’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels, not the people we elect here.
    FALSE. The UK contributes £350 million a week to the EU, but we receive back £97 million directly, as a rebate, which we can spend however we choose. We then receive back another £4.5 billion a year in EU spending. So we actually give the EU about £166 million a week. We receive back more than half of what we give, and most of it we get to spend however we want.
    We cannot stop criminals entering Britain from Europe while job creators from non-European countries are blocked.
    FALSE. The EU citizenship directive 2004 clearly states that free movement in the EU is not an unqualified right, and a country can deny people entry on grounds of "public policy, public security or public health". So no, the EU itself has explicitly stated that we can deny entry to criminals.
    The EU is in charge of our borders, immigration, asylum, and even our intelligence services.
    What the ****? Where did this even come from? FALSE. The Schengen agreement between EU countries abolishes some internal borders, allowing passport-free movement between member states. So yes, we'd have no control over our borders... except for the fact that THE UK IS NOT A PART OF THE SCHENGEN FREE MOVEMENT ZONE. We already have full control of our borders.The UK has agreed to some aspects of the Schengen agreement, such as the Schengen Information Systems. This is an agreement which allows European intelligence agencies to cooperate by sharing law enforcement data, such as information on stolen cars, missing people, and dangerous criminals. In no way whatsoever does this allow the EU to control our intelligence agencies.
    The Government’s deal doesn’t solve the benefits problem. The only way to take control is to Vote Leave.
    Benefits problem? FALSE. The "benefits problem" doesn't exist. EU immigrants are 43% less likely to claim benefits than British people, and contribute 64% more in taxes than they take in benefits (while British natives are the ONLY group that takes more in welfare than it contributes in taxes). The "benefits problem" doesn't exist, and it never has. It's entirely made up.
    You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it. Countries across the world trade with the EU without being members of the EU. Switzerland is not in the EU and exports even more to the EU than we do.
    FALSE. Switzerland, while not a full member of the EU, must allow free migration from the EU, abide by all EU laws and regulations, and they pay into the EU budget. However, since they aren't full members, they get no say in making the laws and allocating the budget. Every country that has a trade agreement with the EU has a similar deal: everything the Leave campaign is telling us we want to get rid of.

    Some more, not from the website but commonly spouted by Leave lemmings:
    The EU is undemocratic
    No, it's really not. Only the European Commission can propose new legislation, but Members of European Parliament (MEPs) decide whether to pass or reject that legislation. About 10% of MEPs represent the UK. We have more MEPs than every country except Germany and France, making us one of the most powerful members of the EU.I'd say that's a hell of a lot more democratic than a monarchy, where all legislation must go through an unelected House of Lords. (HINT: That's the UK.)
    Turkey is joining the EU.
    I saw a picture of a billboard ad saying this, from the champions of truth, Vote Leave. Except... no it's not? I don't even understand this one, because it's just not true, and it has no basis in reality whatsoever. Turkey simply is not joining the EU. And if it were ever to join, the UK alone could stop that from happening.
    The EU threatens the NHS
    This is a really funny one, because the truth is actually the opposite. The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, TTIP, could make it harder to make the NHS public again if it gets privatised. The EU is negotiating new terms specifically for this - to protect public services from privatisation. The irony is that we'll be joining TTIP whether we're in the EU or not - our government has already started privatising the NHS, they've shown they're willing to harm public services for short-term profit, and the Vote Leave campaign themselves have said they want to make trade deals with other countries (which is what TTIP is). The only difference is that the EU has the negotiating power to protect our public services, while the UK on its own won't.That said, I don't really understand why anyone even believes this one. Do people honestly think that Boris Johnson and Iain Duncan Smith are looking to protect the NHS? Get real.
    David Cameron said "Europe will go to war if we leave"
    They're now resorting to fabricating quotes to try to make the Remain campaign look stupid. David Cameron literally just didn't say that. He said "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured?", which is entirely different. I actually find it quite scary how easily people will believe things, and how blatantly corrupt the media are when they're reporting quotes from our Prime Minister that he never actually said.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    Because this is an incredibly complex decision which most of the electorate isn't in the slightest bit informed about. If there was a reasonable belief that the majority of the electorate would put genuine effort into understanding the complexity of the issue and would listen to expert advice then there wouldn't be an issue. But this clearly isn't the case, the majority of the justifications people have used for leaving the EU have either been reasons that have nothing to do with the EU, reasons that won't change by leaving the EU, reasons that are the fault of the UK government and angry people who don't want "to be told what to do by Brussels", despite not having the first clue of what that actually means. Representative Democracy exists because of the understanding that politics is complicated and key policy decisions - and this is policy, not a constitutional issue - should be made by people whose job it is to understand all of the facts and to make decisions based on evidence.

    There being a high voter turnout has absolutely nothing to do with people being informed. There is also a massive difference between a general election, where you choose a group of politicians based on your values on a relatively short-term basis, and a decision like this which is highly technical and permanent. It has also repeatedly been shown that the electorate doesn't even understand basic facts about the issue. The Leave campaign also constantly lied and made promises that they knew they couldn't keep, and have already started to admit this. I do not understand why you think a vote on this basis is valid.

    So by your understanding most the people in this country should not vote ? So would you like to remove the vote for women as well while you are at it ? So it doesn't matter how many people turned out to vote either ? So you would rather such descisions were made by an elite minority than the people ? Say in the same way Hitler decided Germany would elimante the Jews on behalf of his people ! Now what is that sort of un-democratic regime called ??? Oh yes a dictatorship ! Much in the same way North Korea tells its people they are too stupid and ill informed to decide anything for themselves !

    Also did you know that some Remain supporters voted because 1 - they just didn't want change and hadn't studied the issue at all, 2 - some voted because their friends did, 3 - some did so because a fit bird did, 4 - a lot of 18-25's didn't bother to vote !
 
 
 
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