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Do you think we will actually end up leaving the eu? Watch

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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    That's not the definition of democracy. I think you probably meant paragon, and not paradigm.

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...nglish/paragon

    For something to be a paragon, it has to be an ideal example of something, which is what you seem to be going for.

    The reason paradigm doesn't work in your sentence is because for something to be a paradigm, it merely has to be an example of something that fits a pattern. But to be a paragon, it has to be worthy of emulation, a model, an ideal... do you see the difference?

    It's much easier to make the argument that it's not a paragon of democracy, than it is to make the argument that it's not a paradigm of democracy. If you claim the former, you're claiming that this wasn't the best example of democracy and that there are better ways it could be conducted. I think that argument could be made.

    If you claim the latter, you're claiming that the referendum isn't an example of democracy at all, because you believe that democracy as a concept precludes uninformed voters from being agitated by people with a specific agenda. That's easily debunked, because democracy is merely defined as rule by the majority of people in a group.

    If you're still not convinced, let me show you some negative/critical quotes about democracy that show that this obviously isn't the definition:

    "The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all." -- John F. Kennedy

    "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." -- Winston Churchill

    "Democracy is the power of equal votes for unequal minds." -- Charles I of England

    Now, if the definition of democracy required voters to be well-informed, those quotes wouldn't make sense. If anything, most critiques of democracy are based on the fact that the concept does allow uninformed voters that are easily led to make decisions.

    I wouldn't ask you to accept that the referendum was a good example (paragon) of democracy, but I would ask that you accept that it in fact represents an example or pattern typical of democracy (paradigm).
    You're right, I should have used paragon. I knew there was a better word but it completely escaped my mind so I went for paradigm.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Sterling at a lower level means that our exporters are more competitive. It also means that British goods are more attractive to UK buyers. That is a double bonus.
    Double bonus indeed. It is just the shame we import more than we export by quite a lot and whilst exports are cheap to foreign countries, imports, including consumer items and energy are much more expensive. As prices go up, so too does inflation. If the BofE determines that inflation is more important than our weak economy, interest rates go up, mortgages and rent go up, the price of living goes up, wages go down and we are all foobared.

    Worst case scenario indeed, but a weak pound is no saving grace.
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    I agree about Turkey -- however it would surprise me if anyone from UKIP is brave enough to get in the middle of this shambles.

    Circumstances have changed - promises broken - politicians leaving en masse - call a new referendum with 'carry on with this lack of planning and lack of politicians willing to be the scapegoat' and 'get Cameron on his knees in the EU Parliament to let us stay' and I have to say I think many people would change their minds.

    I have problems with people saying the second referendum would be undemocratic - it would only either affirm that we as a people are willing to suffer for what we want or else that we've reconsidered. You know, seeing as most of the Leave campaign have also reconsidered.

    I also think if a PM resigned and most of the Opposition too, within 24 hours of a general election, we'd probably end up back to the Polls then, too.
    Fair points but all I was saying there is that if the next government rejected the democratic will of the British people, this would inevitably lead to an increase in votes for UKIP


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    (Original post by thad33)
    You're assuming that we will sign FTA's with all these countries immediately with no issue. Until then we are going to struggle.
    The deals will take a long time due to the amount that need to be done.
    And we will lose leverage. The EU and US are trying to strike a deal, although we all know there's been many problems but it's obvious that the US would rather deal with the EU as a whole rather than just us.

    If we want to continue FTA with the EU which is what is most likely going to happen then we will still be subject to most of their rules and we will still have to pay in. We just won't have any say in what those rules will be.

    You also have to consider the impact it will have on our finance sector which is the biggest contributor to our GDP. Investment into the country will most likely drop and businesses pull out of the country to mainland Europe.

    Most agree that for the next few years our economy will suffer and we'll be playing catchup for a long time. All of this for a small chance that we increase our GDP by a few percent. Is it all worth throwing away the many benefits being in the EU brings, not just talking about money.

    Although I agree that having an FTA with the US would be great and we should have pushed to be allowed to strike one by ourselves while remaining in the EU. And more should be done to protect the wages of low skilled workers in the UK.

    I actually welcome views from, what seems to be, intelligent leave voters. I hope we do well outside the EU. There was no need to get personal at the end though.


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    I respect your points but you're assuming that the EU has leverage on us here and will bully us into all of their rules. The EU needs us as much as we need them and I think we'll end up with a deal that suits both parties- the EU are not going to risk car manufacturing jobs in the country of their biggest contributor.



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    (Original post by Samiz)
    It hasn't needed to happen, the £4,300 worse off and the 3,000,000 job losses were called as lies by Factcheck/Reality Check during the campaign.

    And the biggest lie was the remainers was about, 'we know the EU isn't perfect, but let's remain in the EU and reform it from inside'. When the day before the vote, Mr Juncker said that there would be no more reform, no more negotiation, and the deal David Cameron got was the maximum deal Britain would get.

    All I'm saying is there were lies on both sides. And we don't know how immigration will work until the government decides what they want. I'd be disappointed if we couldn't have an Australian style points system but immigration was merely one of many factors why I voted.
    Economic forecasts are unreliable in the best of times so I took those figures with a pinch of salt. Still, the exact figures and the methodology used may be wrong, but the UK economy will almost certainly suffer unless we negotiate a free trade deal with the EU. The lies on the leave side were a bit different and there has already been a bit of backtracking. Whoever leads the negotiations will most probably not even seek an Australian style points system, because that rules out any free trade deal.

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...nt-maintained/

    I agree that had we voted remain, there would have been next to no chance of reforming the EU. That's actually one of the reasons I nearly voted leave.
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    (Original post by Shumaya)
    Economic forecasts are unreliable in the best of times so I took those figures with a pinch of salt. Still, the exact figures and the methodology used may be wrong, but the UK economy will almost certainly suffer unless we negotiate a free trade deal with the EU. The lies on the leave side were a bit different and there has already been a bit of backtracking. Whoever leads the negotiations will most probably not even seek an Australian style points system, because that rules out free trade.

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...nt-maintained/

    I agree that had we voted remain, there would have been next to no chance of reforming the EU. That's actually one of the reasons I nearly voted leave.
    I do respect your points and I think most people knew and were prepared for an initial short term economic shock. But it would of been interesting, if remain won, to see the backtracking from some remainers when the EU opened more talks with Turkey on June 30th. It would have been a much nicer, more optimistic debate for both sides without needless lies.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Double bonus indeed. It is just the shame we import more than we export by quite a lot and whilst exports are cheap to foreign countries, imports, including consumer items and energy are much more expensive.
    We have a positive trade balance of £31 billion with non-EU countries, despite tariffs. The prospect of tariffs will improve that situation, and so does a low pound.

    With the EU we have a larger, negative trade balance. If the EU chooses a tariff option, a 10% tariff on cars, for instance, with a 10% lower pound is neutral for our exports but adds 20% to the cost of a German car coming in to the UK. British consumers will thus be encouraged to buy something made locally, while continental customers can still afford our exports.

    If the EU chooses to allow free trade then all is well anyway.
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    (Original post by Samiz)
    And let's stop this lies thing as if it was completely one sided. Where are the 3,000,000 jobs lost? Where is Mr. Osborne's emergency budget? What happened to families being £4,300 worse off?
    And for a bit of perspective, where is the £350 million a week we were promised. What we do know is that the markets are in turmoil not seen for 30 odd years, both the Labour and Tory parties are falling to pieces and the likes of Boris and Gove suddenly seem in no rush whatsoever to leave the EU. Bizarre!
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    And for a bit of perspective, where is the £350 million a week we were promised. What we do know is that the markets are in turmoil not seen for 30 odd years, both the Labour and Tory parties are falling to pieces and the likes of Boris and Gove suddenly seem in no rush whatsoever to leave the EU. Bizarre!
    The FTSE100 is at the same broad level it has been since 2012. Sterling has dropped and our export prospects improve. What is the problem?
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    (Original post by Samiz)
    I respect your points but you're assuming that the EU has leverage on us here and will bully us into all of their rules. The EU needs us as much as we need them and I think we'll end up with a deal that suits both parties- the EU are not going to risk car manufacturing jobs in the country of their biggest contributor.



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    The leverage that I mean is that if we want to trade with the EU it will be like Norway. They still pay money into it and have to abide by their rules.

    Would you have voted in if we were allowed to strike our own deals outside of the EU?


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    (Original post by lifestuck)
    its a fact now which cant be changed
    um... no it's not

    the referendum was only advisory, so parliament could quite happily vote against us leaving the EU if it came to it...
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    We have a positive trade balance of £31 billion with non-EU countries, despite tariffs. The prospect of tariffs will improve that situation, and so does a low pound.
    Yes. But you are not looking at the bigger picture. Our total exports is in the £250 - £300 billion region. I don't understand this idea that trading far away will be easier than trading with the EU and will replace things. Trading with the EU is so easy. It is a couple of hours flight away. Most folks speak English and have similar cultures to our own. By contrast, dealing with a country like China and even the UK is a different kettle of fish.

    Why are some so happy to see Europe sail into the wind to be replaced by something so much more challenging?
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    (Original post by thad33)
    The leverage that I mean is that if we want to trade with the EU it will be like Norway. They still pay money into it and have to abide by their rules.

    Would you have voted in if we were allowed to strike our own deals outside of the EU?


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    Whilst it was a large factor for me, nope.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    The FTSE100 is at the same broad level it has been since 2012. Sterling has dropped and our export prospects improve. What is the problem?
    FTSE 100 is made of primarily foreign owned companies and doesn't really reflect the UK economy. But the FTSE 250 does not show happy reading:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-mar...mmary/ftse-250

    To say nothing of the banks. The UK government has lost about £3 billion in value on its shares with Lloyds and RBS. Good job we will gain £350 million a week in EU fees.... hang on wait...
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    Even if we decide we don't want to, the EU have made it very clear that they now want us gone, I don't think there's any sweet-talking our way back in now
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    (Original post by rubybrown1234)
    Even if we decide we don't want to, the EU have made it very clear that they now want us gone, I don't think there's any sweet-talking our way back in now
    You haven't heard me sweet talk
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    . I don't understand this idea that trading far away will be easier than trading with the EU
    How, then, do we have a positive trade balance with the non-EU countries of £31 billion, and a negative one (i.e. we import more than we export) of £68 billion with the EU, despite tariffs against our good outside the EU?

    Will postal services, telephones, the internet, aeroplanes and ships cease to exist when we leave the EU? Or will our businesses suddenly be unable to manage any journey over 300 miles?

    12% of our car exports go to the USA (and we export 77% of what we make). How is distance a factor. 43% of car exports are outside the EU already.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    FTSE 100 is made of primarily foreign owned companies and doesn't really reflect the UK economy. But the FTSE 250 does not show happy reading:

    http://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-mar...mmary/ftse-250
    The FTSE250 is doing just as well: it is about 20% higher now than it was in 2012, right where it was a year ago.
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    Sadly, I think its not avoidable now. All that sensible young people like me and the other remainers should do now is to call it quits on England. Its done. If you are in a career field that is in demand like my one, move to a country that demands it. England is done as a country.
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    (Original post by karl pilkington)
    erm you do realise that the fishing industry has been destroyed by the EU partly because they have opened up our waters to other EU countries
    And we will have to keep them open to EU countries if we want their waters to remain open to us. Plus several EU countries have historical fishing rights in UK waters, so we're still going to have to haggle over access rights every year with EU countries. The CFP gave us the second biggest catch quota in the EU and free access to the largest EEZ in the world. Are you sure we'll get a better deal?
 
 
 
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