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    (Original post by rhia9)
    Islam is a religion of peace.
    No it isn't.
    It is a religion of peace and violence.

    Is ISIS really "Islamic"
    Yes, but not all Muslims agree with their methods, although they do agree on the ideology.

    or are they just using this as a mask and the real reason for the attacks is the urge to have power?
    There may well be some who have an agenda of personal gain, but when hasn't there been?
    There are clearly plenty who see it purely as an ideological cause.

    Why do people say "Muslims were responsible for the 9/11 attacks, or the Paris bombings?" Were they really?
    Well, the people who carried out the attacks were Muslims, but not all Muslims are to blame - only the ones involed in the attacks, planning, supporting, etc.
    The role of Islam is somewhat different. If an ideology can be used to justify violence, oppression and discrimination, then it is to blame, and should be challenged and made to confront its shortcomings.
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    (Original post by tamanna___)
    I think ISIS are not Muslim at all, they pretend to be and use it as a mask.. If they really were Muslims (pure Muslims as they claim to be) then they would be fasting right now, not bombing, they would most likely also be in Itikaaf... They probably have never read the Quran or understood the basic pillars and principles of Islam which require us to be empathetic towards and look after the poor and needy, not brutally murder them.
    Ironic that your post is clearly made by someone with only a superficial and selective understanding of Islam.
    The Quran and sunnah contain passages that justify peace and violence, tolerance and intolerance, equality and oppression, People will take those parts that suit their agenda - or the ones that they have been told.

    Your dismissal of ISIS as "Not True Muslims" because they favour a different interpretation and agenda, is no different from their dismissal of you, for exactly the same reasons (although their interpretation puts into practice the permission to kill Munafiqun under certain conditions).
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    (Original post by Kadak)
    I know right,people seem to forget in the initial days of the invasion the Iraqi people welcomed the invasion and saw the coalition forces as liberators.Not to mention people forgot Saddam use of poison gas against the Kurds.
    Admittedly America did commit war crimes such as what is referred to as the "Highway of Death". So I'm not going to make America out to be perfect, but one shouldn't take the position of defending Saddam, because he is also guilty of having committed war crimes too. I don't think it is a defendable position to take.

    Many people also are unaware of Saddam's actions against the Madan people (also known as the Marsh Arabs). The Madan people lived very traditionally in the marshes of Southern Iraq for thousands of years. Saddam didn't like them and so he drained some 7,500 square miles (according to wikipedia) of the marshes and turned it into a desert. He turned this:

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    (Original post by tanyapotter)
    ISIS and al-Qaeda are both radical anti-western militant groups. Al-Qaeda was formed to wage insurgency against US troops in Iraq, and the security vacuum left when the US withdrew from Iraq in 2011 was exploited by ISIS - all a consequence of the actions of Bush and Blair. Or is blaming two white men too close to home for comfort?
    such ignorance - al queda existed long before the US invaded iraq - did you forget about 9/11 that predated iraq war? and prior to 9/11 attack on nairobi US embassy, World trade centre bombing etc. islamic terrorism has existed long before US invasions, and islamic sectarian wars are many times older than the United States itself. try opening a book that covers the history of the world before 2004
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    (Original post by rhia9)
    Another point - with the Charleston shooting that was carried out by a WHITE man, I have not heard the word terrorist once.
    Well, you obviously haven't been listening very carefully.
    That attack has been classified as both terrorism and hate crime by experts, usually depending on their field of expertise. The FBI investigated it as both.
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    Sorry, hun, but you've got it wrong; it's not the"religion of peace", it's a religion.

    The only requirement to be a Muslim is to identify oneself as a Muslim, with any link to Islam.
    Ergo ISIL members are presumably Muslim.

    If the attacks are because of problems in the religion, then although many (most) Muslims are not necessarily at fault, it means there are problems which need to be addressed.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Your first sentence is an oft-repeated platitude. The fact is that as well as containing peaceful verses, Islamic scripture is also overflowing with disgusting, violent, aggressive and hateful verses which groups like ISIS use to justify some of their most heinous acts.

    Invoking the No True Scotsman fallacy every time a member of your religion does something you don't like is childish as well as futile, because it's essentially ignoring the problem at its root cause: the ideology.

    what is this tripe?

    Islam is a religion of patience and peace, Muslims are humble, righteous and more rounded individuals.. of course nobody is perfect but theres a reason more people convert to islam over any other religion...
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Admittedly America did commit war crimes such as what is referred to as the "Highway of Death". So I'm not going to make America out to be perfect, but one shouldn't take the position of defending Saddam, because he is also guilty of having committed war crimes too. I don't think it is a defendable position to take.

    Many people also are unaware of Saddam's actions against the Madan people (also known as the Marsh Arabs). The Madan people lived very traditionally in the marshes of Southern Iraq for thousands of years. Saddam didn't like them and so he drained some 7,500 square miles (according to wikipedia) of the marshes and turned it into a desert. He turned this:
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    Into this:
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    I have actually read a bit about the Marsh Arabs but not alot because they dont seem as well known as the Kurds .
    I dont get the controversy around the highway of death,is it wrong to bombard fleeing soldiers ?Or was it the fact the Iraqi soldiers were so helpless ?
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    Of course it...
    We should also blame the Christians for genocide, the jews for slaughter hindus/sikhs for horror and so on
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    (Original post by TheO.G.Slayer)
    what is this tripe?

    Islam is a religion of patience and peace, Muslims are humble, righteous and more rounded individuals..
    if this were factually the case then the islamic world wouldnt be filled with the under-education poverty and poor records on human rights it is. and indeed there wouldnt be constant attrocities all over it committed by those quoting the 'peaceful doctrine' that islamists do
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    (Original post by Tictackilla)
    Im tired of people blaming their problems on a special group of people. If its terrorists its muslim problem, if its something else its the migrants, other things it might be christians. You need to realise only sick people do this kind of stuff.
    Do sick people form armies with a payroll? Do business on the world market? Maintain municipal services and send out utility bills? There is NOTHING sick or insane about these freaks. They are totally dedicated muslims with a vision.
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    (Original post by Adamski191)
    Put it this way; ISIS, along with its mindless supporters, aren't Muslims. They go against virtually everything Islam stands for. Don't get me wrong, I'm not Muslim, and I'm certainly not entirely religious, nor am I an expert of being religious,
    So your opinion is based on what?

    but we need to put into context who is and who is not a Muslim. Go ask an Imam (a Muslim equivalent of a vicar) if they consider ISIS a Muslim organisation, and (hopefully) they will say 'no'.
    Ah yes, the opinion of those with a vested interest. Always the most unbiased and objective commentators.
    I guess that you would ask Goebbels about Hitler, or Communist Party commissars about Stalin?

    As someone who knows a bit about Islam, ISIS are most definately Islamic in their ideology, and most, if not all, of them are certtainly Muslims. However, there are many interpretations and sects of Islam, so naturally, there are Muslims who do not agree with ISIS's interpretation. But that's what happens when the actual and final word of god and the perfect example of his messenger are so ambiguous and contradictory.

    So, NO! It is NOT fair to blame Muslims for the terrorist attacks occurring globally at this point in time.
    Correct! To a point. It is fair to blame the Muslims involved in the attacks, and the ideology that they use as motivation and justification.
    But it is not fair to blame all Muslims.
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    (Original post by Hirondelle127)
    You're right Islam should be and is in fact a religion of peace. The Qu'ran has many peaceful verses. It also has quite bloody verses too - but then again, so do many other religions. There needs to be a clear emphasis on the peaceful verses in muslim communities (like there already are), and more work needs to be done by all (muslims and non alike) to separate the likes of ISIL and, though this may sound controversial, most of Sharia law, from the perceptions people have of 'mainstream' Islam, as the more Islamophobia and division there is, the more vulnerable people will flock to extremism.
    The problem with this approach is that this is what we have at the moment. The vast majority of Muslims would not dream of putting into practice the literalist and retentionist ideology of the likes of ISIS derive from certain passages.

    However, because the Quran (and sunnah, to a lesser extent) are treated as infallible and immutable by all Muslims, those passages are always available to those who choose to use them.
    It's a bit like the gun control argument in the US. The vast majority of gun owners are stable, law obiding citizens, but as long as there is such easy access to guns, there will continue to be massacres.
    The only way to absolutely stop such ideologically motivated attacks is to remove the justification from the ideology. And at the moment, all but the most progressive Muslims categorically reject even the idea of scriptural reformation and ideological enlightenment. So all the passages about killing disbelievers, using slaves for sex, wife beating, death for apostates, gays, adulterers, etc, etc, will have to stay. And because they are there, in the minds of most Muslims, they stilll apply today - they simply come up with a variety of reasons why they will never be implemented.
    ISIS don't bother looking for those excuses.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Are you joking me? You're unaware of the countless verses insulting non-Muslims, describing in detail how they're going to be tortured in the afterlife and all the verses talking about horrible Earthly punishments? I'm sorry to say you can't have read the Quran then. You might want to check out this short list:

    Quran 5:33, 98:6, 3:91, 4:56, 8:39.
    Quran 5:33 - That's for the people who start a war or with Muslims or who cause corruption in earth = Justifiable.
    In America death penalty still exists, and that includes lethal injection, electrocution, or firing squad.

    Quran 98:6 - If you don't believe in Islam, you will go to hell. I think if you're a person who knows that Islam is not a true a religion, then you shouldn't really care about this quote.

    Quran 3:91 - Same as top, if you're a non-Muslim, why do you care about going to hell for not being a Muslim

    Quran 4:56 - 'These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?' - what's wrong with this verse?

    Quran 8:39 - Verse 8:39 is in the context of those non-Muslims who were hostile to the Muslims back then. The verse before it, 8:38 (if you did read it) says 'if they cease, what has previously occurred will be forgiven for them' and if they don't stop then fight them back. Do you expect people to get killed and God telling them to sit down.

    rhia9 This is what ISIS do, the same thing this user just did. Pick out quotes from the Quran and explain them the way they want.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Only a bigot would say all Muslims are to blame for Islamic terrorist attacks, they're clearly not. But the problem with your post is that the definition of who a true Muslim is is subjective. In like manner, ISIS may accuse many Western Muslims of being apostates and will say that they themselves are the true Muslims.
    This is actually quite interesting. If the moderates cannot claim ISIS are not true Muslims then according to your logic, ISIS cannot do the same vice versa. Hence, when ISIS do kill muslims they may say those that are killed were not true Muslims but here they would be playing the no true scottsman fallacy too. Hence, we can say those killed by ISIS are Muslims right? Look at the following verse:

    And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is Hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement...

    So technically after they kill another muslim they aren't "true" or they are unislamic.
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    if this were factually the case then the islamic world wouldnt be filled with the under-education poverty and poor records on human rights it is. and indeed there wouldnt be constant attrocities all over it committed by those quoting the 'peaceful doctrine' that islamists do

    SPARE ME! u think being rich and educated makes you superior? LOL F OFF
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    It’s not fair to blame all Muslims for ISIS. Religion is a choice, they chose to be Muslims, so why should other Muslims apologise for the action of terrorists?

    Let us not forget the KKK, a white-supremacist terrorist group which murdered and harassed people of colour (not just blacks) and yet, nobody asks white Christians to apologise for their actions.

    Muslims are not to blame, whoever believes this is an ignorant fool. One should not be blamed for the actions of another.



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    (Original post by Reformed)
    interestingly much of what you posted could indeed be referenced in part to the spread of islam - ie slavery in africa, wars of colonisation, terrorism, destruction of more advanced ancient societies, poor standards of education and womens rights etc
    however much of your examples cant be tied to a specific ideology that repeats in different circumstance globally if - whereas islamic terrorism tends to occur regularly and over a widspread geographical area, crossing boundaries of ethnicity and race but with same result and under same influce of islamist dogma. it is also by far more common than any other issue you raise.
    Don't be silly bro You've missed the point in its entirety.

    As for the end part, you should reform your thinking as it is blinded by hate which is unhealthy The islamic "dogma" you refer to is followed by billions of people of which maybe a few odd thousand have interpreted it to fit their political and hateful views. Why not look at 99.99999999% of the Muslim population who live peacefully in the world?
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    (Original post by Hirondelle127)
    Though I completely agree with the sentiment, I must be picky about this otherwise someone who is against your argument (which I am not) might be instead. When you mention Hitler and the Nazis - these openly persecuted Christianity as their campaign carried on, so to prove your point you might want to change that.
    Oh that is a interesting point, thanks for letting me know

    If someone were to raise that point I would probably point to their hypocrisy as ISIS slaughter more Muslims than anyone else Not for one second would I call Hitler an exemplar Christian, but that is the point, none of these hateful people should be seen as flag bearers for their religion/society/country/culture

    Thanks for your point though
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The problem with this approach is that this is what we have at the moment. The vast majority of Muslims would not dream of putting into practice the literalist and retentionist ideology of the likes of ISIS derive from certain passages.

    However, because the Quran (and sunnah, to a lesser extent) are treated as infallible and immutable by all Muslims, those passages are always available to those who choose to use them.
    It's a bit like the gun control argument in the US. The vast majority of gun owners are stable, law obiding citizens, but as long as there is such easy access to guns, there will continue to be massacres.
    The only way to absolutely stop such ideologically motivated attacks is to remove the justification from the ideology. And at the moment, all but the most progressive Muslims categorically reject even the idea of scriptural reformation and ideological enlightenment. So all the passages about killing disbelievers, using slaves for sex, wife beating, death for apostates, gays, adulterers, etc, etc, will have to stay. And because they are there, in the minds of most Muslims, they stilll apply today - they simply come up with a variety of reasons why they will never be implemented.
    ISIS don't bother looking for those excuses.

    I think that's an interesting point. To build on that, the other Abrahamic religions seem to have gone through some form of major scriptural reformation at one point or another - at the very least, Christianity has - which has helped making them more 'liberal'. I'm not sure Islam has in exactly the same way. Of course that's not to say that there aren't people who'll interpret the Bible literally and adhere to every single word in it, but oh well, but it's a stretch to do so. And here I really must tread carefully, but in the case of Christianity it's also a stretch to do so because the bulk New Testament is extremely peace-loving and 'trumps' the Old Testament - to the extent whereby extensive talks were had for at least twenty years prior to the First Crusade simply to try to find a way to justify a crusade through scripture. (Which does show that people will always find a way to enforce violence in the name of God.) Despite having its peaceful verses, the Qu'ran is a lot less 'hippy-ish' in parts where it differs to the Bible. Although I do remember the Qu'ran mentioning the prophet Isa/Jesus, it doesn't go into detail about his 'hippy-esque' teachings. I do think the Qu'ran does refer/mention the existence of the Gospel and does so favourably?

    Do you think the more literal interpretations of Islam we see today something which will simply 'slip away' with time as young muslims become more progressive or is this something which needs to be directly addressed by muslim communities?
 
 
 
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