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UK Scientists dropped from EU projects because of funding fears Watch

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    (Original post by kingaaran)
    By suggesting that science is pointless or useless, you are effectively being ignorant to how it fuels your daily routines. It would be difficult to not acknowledge the catastrophe that would happen if our electricity supplies suddenly broke down or the satellites that power communications suddenly were misprogrammed to be at a slightly different (and then perhaps less efficient) position in the sky.

    I am speaking in complete hyperbole, because we all know that leaving the EU is not going to stop our source of electricity or alter the position of satellites in the sky. But I am trying to showcase the sheer importance that the scientific community has had on advancing our society and how it will continue to do so on a daily basis: we may choose to ignore it but new ideas are coming together every day.

    A lack of scientific funding will hinder new scientists who have the potential to accelerate the progress the scientific community is making in the physiological, biotechnological, computational, chemical, mathematical, physical - (and the list goes on...) - sectors.

    We are currently within a volatility period and uncertainty is everywhere. So, it is perhaps too quick for people to judge that the funding towards the sciences will be completely destroyed by Brexit, but it is definitely ignorant to disagree with the undeniable importance the sciences have had (and are having) in our societies and hence the upsetting prospect that Brexit might indeed have a negative impact on the science sector.*
    What I denied was the world is ending mentality, plus the bile and pure hate aimed at people who didn't believe the world is ending hence saying step back and wait.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)

    And for your infomation I never said we wouldn't suffer the whole point is we can't predict everything that will happen, you are cherry picking things that are overly logical hence why people always say change is hard, until we have at least a few years after leaving we can make proper judgements then.
    Just imagine being "overly" logic.

    It is not as if there will significant cut in growth/ recession.
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    (Original post by seaholme)
    Perhaps because when you say "viewpoint", you're being very rude to somebody who is expressing their valid concerns, and on top of that implying that what they are doing is worth nothing, when it is in fact a really important part of our economy and society? If that kind of behaviour is what you think the phrase "open minded" means, we have different dictionaries.

    No matter how much we wish on a little star and so on, simply believing in something really hard doesn't make it happen. You cannot simply write off facts as 'fear'! It's straying into the realms of deliberate self-delusion to do so.

    The EU gave millions of pounds of funding to science in the UK. It will no longer be doing so unless the people in charge in Brussels have completely lost track of who is and who isn't a member. This is a "fact". Significant science projects had pan-european collaboration with EU funding, that the UK will forfeit when it leaves. Fact. British scientists are being asked to step down from European projects so as not to prejudice important science. Fact.
    https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...-funding-fears

    You can sit there with fingers in your ears trying to drown out the sound of what is happening and saying it's just 'fear', or you can look at what is the logical consequences and then also the actual consequences, already happening around us.

    Scientists are pretty practical people, who look at logic and results. The facts are that this is a big problem which is already starting to make itself known and logically there is no reason why it would not continue to do so.

    If you wish to somehow pretend to yourself that is imaginary, you're going to have to start some kind of brainwashing cult if you want to find people to play pretend along with you. And honestly if people keep acting the way you do, by the time they finally decide this reality is indeed real and not 'fear' superimposed upon the world, we're going to be even more screwed than if we actually get it together NOW and try to do something to fix it. We don't have the space for people to stick their fingers in their ears and chant "lalalala"...
    Point being the responses from people are they think their "intelligence" makes them know everything and thus is the one undeniable proof, that is arrogance and pride.

    They are so messed up with their logic that they put words into other peoples mouths

    People are in recent years saying that many scientiests even historically showed signs of autism.

    You must of been blind to the swearing and hate written about leavers earlier in the thread basically using the F words.

    Where did I say things don't need to be done? Where Did I say things weren't bad? So tell me who is the one in denial?

    Fear is looking at things are a pure logical way and refusing to think about any other viewpoint as not everything can be explained logically.

    Disagreeing the world is going to end doesn't mean people are sticking fingers in their ears.

    If people had the intelligence they think they have they would realise that, or is the reality they have overthought things.

    I say we are at a point where we can't say whats right and wrong, instead of people on both sides (though the remainers are the worse by far) jumping at every negative thing that happens and using that to spite hate about people.

    I am being defensive, others are attacking.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Just imagine being "overly" logic.

    It is not as if there will significant cut in growth/ recession.
    There may well be, but it wouldn't matter how much in reality as even a small amount will be seen as proof by people.

    I notice no one despite how intelligent they think they are has researched what happened when UK JOINED the EU, the same headlines were in the papers, similar things happened to the economy and we recovered.

    Not to say we will now but its very unlikely as people would have you think its the end of the world.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    There may well be, but it wouldn't matter how much in reality as even a small amount will be seen as proof by people.

    I notice no one despite how intelligent they think they are has researched what happened when UK JOINED the EU, the same headlines were in the papers, similar things happened to the economy and we recovered.

    Not to say we will now but its very unlikely as people would have you think its the end of the world.
    ROFL. The pound depreciated by 15% when we entered the EU and there was a recession?

    Are you sure that this something that you want me to look up?
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    (Original post by Rorschach II)

    the UK evidently has the highest collaboration with other member states in the EU (I'm not willing to calculate the specific lead in collaboration at 5:17am.)(It'd be detrimental to them if they hindered this collaboration with us.)

    https://www.elsevier.com/__data/asse...13.pdf#page=19
    ]

    Found it! Page 45, in appendix c.

    The USA, not a member state of the EU, are in the top 7 ranked pairs for collaboration.
    (Original post by TeaAndSugar)
    Thanks, very informative

    @TeaAndSugar I quoted you because he replied to

    @Rorschach II

    I don't know whether you are trying to be dishonest or whether you are just too tired to read

    The Table title states:

    " Top pairs of collaboration of Europe countries with countries outside Europe"

    So clearly, the USA would be at the top.

    Even ignoring that issue, the USA has the largest amount of research funding in the world and therefore, it is obvious that they will be fairly high up. The UK doesn't.
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    (Original post by Rorschach II)
    Oh get rekt with my post above.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Except ..... it didn't. LOL.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    So someone who reads a book knows more than someone with actual autism

    That is pure stupidity and just shows how messed up logic goes.

    It doesn't matter what I say you will find fault as you seem to think you are some sort of magical genius that knows everything,

    And the same experts like doctors have said it to me, and I have worked with kids with autism myself.

    Or does reading your little books mean you have more knowledge than people with experience.
    Try living in the real world.

    And for your infomation I never said we wouldn't suffer the whole point is we can't predict everything that will happen, you are cherry picking things that are overly logical hence why people always say change is hard, until we have at least a few years after leaving we can make proper judgements then.
    Perhaps you should re-read my post. I explicitly said I have worked in a special school providing psychological support to pupils with moderate to severe autism. Where does that insinuate my only understanding of autism has been from books, and not "real world" experience?

    Good lord. You have an attitude problem. The way you have spoken to others on here as well is just outright offensive. People are already suffering, funding is already being cut for research and that is still not enough for you.

    It would never be enough. When the harsh and negative consequences will come, you and many others would still not have the strength of mind to recognise them. To recognise that perhaps the wrong decision was made. Instead you'll find more proximate excuses to justify why the consequences are a result of something else and not Brexit.

    You say now that you will wait and see, but when that time you are speaking of arrives, you won't have the ability to "see" even then. Instead you'll stay content in your selective blindness. In a way I envy you, how nice must it be to face negativity in the eyes arising from our actions, and to still remain adamant that it does not exist. A nice, self-protective mechanism.

    Nice for you, but harmful for our country as a whole.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    There may well be, but it wouldn't matter how much in reality as even a small amount will be seen as proof by people.

    I notice no one despite how intelligent they think they are has researched what happened when UK JOINED the EU, the same headlines were in the papers, similar things happened to the economy and we recovered.

    Not to say we will now but its very unlikely as people would have you think its the end of the world.
    No one has researched what happened when "UK JOINED the EU"???

    Do you include yourself in that?



    The UK's yearly growth in prosperity improved from the bottom of the G7 economies before we joined the European Economic Comminity to the top spot years after joining the EU.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    Point being the responses from people are they think their "intelligence" makes them know everything and thus is the one undeniable proof, that is arrogance and pride.
    They are so messed up with their logic that they put words into other peoples mouths
    People are in recent years saying that many scientiests even historically showed signs of autism.
    You must of been blind to the swearing and hate written about leavers earlier in the thread basically using the F words.
    Where did I say things don't need to be done? Where Did I say things weren't bad? So tell me who is the one in denial?
    Fear is looking at things are a pure logical way and refusing to think about any other viewpoint as not everything can be explained logically.
    Disagreeing the world is going to end doesn't mean people are sticking fingers in their ears.
    If people had the intelligence they think they have they would realise that, or is the reality they have overthought things.
    I say we are at a point where we can't say whats right and wrong, instead of people on both sides (though the remainers are the worse by far) jumping at every negative thing that happens and using that to spite hate about people.
    I am being defensive, others are attacking.
    Dude this post makes no sense. Specifically I don't think you and I have the same definition of "logic", which to me is to use a set of known principles to reason through something from some initial facts. Logically, from a set of facts, you can come to a conclusion. Whether that conclusion then comes true or not is impossible to tell without the power of future sight. However, in the absence of some intervening factors that may change the picture, it is likely to be the case. If we don't have enough money to fund UK science, it is likely to have a big impact on the productivity and jobs associated with UK science. This is logical, because money is at the source of those jobs and projects. Now maybe Sweden will suddenly decide to start funding UK science. It would be illogical to do so as they gain nothing from it, BUT that would be the kind of thing that would have to happen if you wanted to try and logically refute what is being said here. If you can come up with some reasons why UK science isn't going to suffer, then fabulous, please share and we can have a discussion. If not, you're holding out for some kind of unknown future miracle intervention, whilst accusing everyone else who has reasoned through the probable and indeed already starting to happen impact of this of 'fear', and I hope you can understand why that's just not acceptable for most people. Especially people in the industry whose jobs and futures are obviously going to be affected by anything which affects the industry itself. There is no good reason to just sit with your fingers crossed and then get angry when people suggest actually we may have a problem here, as you are doing.

    To you "logic" seems to mean something I can't even put my finger on, possibly just your own opinion.

    If you feel attacked by people responding to your comments, maybe take some time out and reply later when you're feeling less rattled... that's what I do if I find myself feeling annoyed by other people's replies. Otherwise I might end up saying something rude, which isn't how I like to go about things.
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    (Original post by drbluebox)
    So someone who reads a book knows more than someone with actual autism

    That is pure stupidity and just shows how messed up logic goes.

    It doesn't matter what I say you will find fault as you seem to think you are some sort of magical genius that knows everything,

    And the same experts like doctors have said it to me, and I have worked with kids with autism myself.

    Or does reading your little books mean you have more knowledge than people with experience.
    Try living in the real world.

    And for your infomation I never said we wouldn't suffer the whole point is we can't predict everything that will happen, you are cherry picking things that are overly logical hence why people always say change is hard, until we have at least a few years after leaving we can make proper judgements then.
    I'm autistic and I have no idea what you're rambling on about. You claim you know better, then claim people are blinded by logic, then claim that autistic people are more logical.

    What are you even saying? You seem to be advocating throwing logic away and just guessing because our logical predictions don't fit your narrative.
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    (Original post by Rorschach II)
    X
    I'm not entirely sure why you're being upvoted because none of this at all refutes the Guardian article. Nobody is saying that scientists are the only people who matter but it is a vitally important sector so society should be very concerned about any changes that damage UK science. To counter this with a sarcastic comment that doesn't really say anything isn't a particularly intelligent response in my view.

    I'm also slightly puzzled as to what point you're trying to make with the publications from Elsevier. The statistics very clearly show that on a per capita or per dollar basis, the UK's science collaboration with Europe is disproportionately greater than collaboration with the USA.

    Finally, just like many other people, you are showing remarkable faith in a government that has in the past shown complete contempt for the UK Science. Given this government's track record of repeatedly cutting science and our government's embarrassing lack of funding into R&D as a proportion of GDP in comparison with most other developed countries in the world, I find it rather confusing as to why you think the government is suddenly going to turn around and magically replace all of the money that was previously ring-fenced as a result of our membership in the EU. Anybody with any awareness of this government's history with science would, rightly, be incredibly alarmed about the current situation. I find it exceptionally arrogant of you to assume that the UK scientific community is fabricating some massive drama where there is none.
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    If only someone had told us about this before!!!*
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    I'm not entirely sure why you're being upvoted because none of this at all refutes the Guardian article. Nobody is saying that scientists are the only people who matter but it is a vitally important sector so society should be very concerned about any changes that damage UK science. To counter this with a sarcastic comment that doesn't really say anything isn't a particularly intelligent response in my view.

    I'm also slightly puzzled as to what point you're trying to make with the publications from Elsevier. The statistics very clearly show that on a per capita or per dollar basis, the UK's science collaboration with Europe is disproportionately greater than collaboration with the USA.

    Finally, just like many other people, you are showing remarkable faith in a government that has in the past shown complete contempt for the UK Science. Given this government's track record of repeatedly cutting science and our government's embarrassing lack of funding into R&D as a proportion of GDP in comparison with most other developed countries in the world, I find it rather confusing as to why you think the government is suddenly going to turn around and magically replace all of the money that was previously ring-fenced as a result of our membership in the EU. Anybody with any awareness of this government's history with science would, rightly, be incredibly alarmed about the current situation. I find it exceptionally arrogant of you to assume that the UK scientific community is fabricating some massive drama where there is none.
    Don't you see, it's because they've taken back control! :rolleyes:
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    Hopefully we retain participation in the EU science programmes(likely if we end up with a Norway style deal) so it minimises the impact long term, short term isn't looking good however.
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36835566

    So depressing.
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    It really is. The opportunities that have been taken away from a whole generation (my generation, **** sake) are tragic.

    Fun fact, we're the first generation in recorded history that's expected to be worse off than our parents. We have been royally ****ed.
 
 
 
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