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There is no such thing as 'islamophobia' watch

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    (Original post by QE2)
    The title is "There is no such thing as Islamophobia".

    With all due respect, I would suggest that there is no such thing as a unicorn.

    Now, the words describing both things exist. Do you still insist that they must both exist because they have words to describe them?

    No.

    Hardly a red herring if I was responding to a point that you made regarding the subject of the thread. :confused:
    I wasn't arguing whether they exist in physical reality. The OP argued that the word does not exist.

    Lol Islamaphobia according to you does not exist. So anti-Muslim bigotry does not exist? Please look up the definition for Islamaphobia before replying.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    Murdering non-Muslims and committing acts of terror is wrong in any context.
    and i agree completely, infact murdering anyone an creating terror on anyone is completely wrong.... you point is?

    Quran states that the killing of any individual is the same as killing the whole human kind with the exception that the person is a mass murderer them selves or create terror (are terrorist). If you look at the tafsir and when the verse was revealed, it was during a period of time Bedouin and clans kept killing each other in constant feuds and this was done so to end the feuds.....

    Another thing people like to say is about the law of leaving islam they are to be killed... that is utterly false. Quran states there is no compulsion in religion. Quran states that say to those for you is your way(religion) and for me is mine (my religion). However, if you look at high treason laws in any country, there is capital punishment which is the same as leaving the country (betraying it)- same applied in islam
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Please explain how the shariah allows random killing?
    Personally, I think allowing for the killing of people because of their sexaulity, relationship status or religious belief, is pretty "random".

    (By "random" I assumed you meant "unjustifiable".)
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    Anjem Choudary is educated and believes in Sharia and so forth. So do many other Islamic scholars.
    They're not civilised people then
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Lol please learn what the shariah is. The shariah law is a set of regulation every Muslim must follow just like any British citizen must abide by the British law. It covers every aspect of life.

    There is no book of shariah and the Quran does not outline everything in the shariah. Most of shariah is from ahadith, however if it is against the teachings of the quran is not to be applied. The shariah is implemented in different ways depending on the interpretation and situation.
    Well done on stating the obvious after jumping to several conclusion surrounding my viewpoint. Nothing you've stated above is news to me.
    Please explain how the shariah allows random killing?
    Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.

    It may not be random but its disturbingly sick and wrong.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    There was a discussion on here recently and the consensus amongst Muslims (including the females) was that wearing the hijab is compulsory.

    If you believe that it is compulsory in your religion, and you are a devout believer, then by definition, you have no option but to wear it.

    Erm, that's a uniform that is required by a specific job. :confused:

    That is your opinion.

    How is society forcing women to look certain ways? Do you mean advertising and media?
    Just a minute. If being told by god himself to dress a certain way isn't being "forced", how is the media forcing them?
    Are you saying that the power of advertising is greater than the power of Allah?

    So, people should be able to dress how they want, as long as it is "modestly"?
    Sounds a bit like the colour options for the Model-T!
    First off, your first point is meaningless unless it is a given fatwa supported by a majority of scholars, your second point is also no longer relevant.

    A nun is a member of a religious community, not exactly a job. Even if it is her job and it is compulsory for her to wear it, then isnt she being forced by definition?

    That is not my opinion, that is fact that you are being ignorant about.

    God said dress modestly, he also said worship me. He isnt forcing everyone tho. And no lol, you just cant interpret properly, where did u get the impression that media > Allah (in english meaning The God and the only one to be worshiped)

    Dosent really matter what is sounds like, you might be deaf and not hear anything...is that relevant?
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    (Original post by welshiee)

    Sharia teaches that homosexuality is a vile form of fornication, punishable by death.
    Show me where it says that it is punishable by death? And dont give me countries that do that because no country represents islam including Saudi

    Quranic verse is appreciated.
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    First off, your first point is meaningless unless it is a given fatwa supported by a majority of scholars, your second point is also no longer relevant.

    A nun is a member of a religious community, not exactly a job. Even if it is her job and it is compulsory for her to wear it, then isnt she being forced by definition?

    That is not my opinion, that is fact that you are being ignorant about.

    God said dress modestly, he also said worship me. He isnt forcing everyone tho. And no lol, you just cant interpret properly, where did u get the impression that media > Allah (in english meaning The God and the only one to be worshiped)

    Dosent really matter what is sounds like, you might be deaf and not hear anything...is that relevant?
    You can follow Christianity without becoming a nun. It's not the same for Islam.

    And taking that kind of tone with people just makes you sound as if you are running out of arguments and getting desperate. But you know, maybe we're all deaf. Huh.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    This was actually directed at the Jews, not Muslims. The qur'an demands that those who are "innocent" should not be killed, but then has a narrow definition of "innocent". It commands Muslims to murder all heretics, pagans, polytheists, atheists, and those it deems social deviants, and also tells Muslims to kill until there is worship only for Allah, and to commit acts of terror against the unbelievers as Allah itself will do for eternity in the afterlife.
    Quranic verse please.

    also, if it states that only muslims should remain and that god will punish all non muslims, why does he quran state
    Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
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    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    I wasn't arguing whether they exist in physical reality. The OP argued that the word does not exist.
    No they didn't. They said...
    "Islamophobia is a non-word, it has no real meaning. "
    Which I agree with.

    Lol Islamaphobia according to you does not exist. So anti-Muslim bigotry does not exist? Please look up the definition for Islamaphobia before replying.
    Anti-Muslim bigotry exists.
    So does criticism of and opposition to Islam.
    Both of these come under the definition of "Islamophobia", yet they are two completely different things, and those involved in the latter usually condemn the former.
    That is why it is meaningless as a term. A "non-word" as the OP said.

    Would you think it reasonable to use the same word for someone who rejects and argues against atheism, and also someone who hacks atheists to death with machetes because they are atheist? Let's call them "murdering scum".

    Now, as you reject and argue against atheism, you are presumably happy to also be called "murdering scum"?
    No?
    But why not? You are happy to do the same thing with opponents of Islam.
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Show me where it says that it is punishable by death? And dont give me countries that do that because no country represents islam including Saudi

    Quranic verse is appreciated.
    A quick Google search will offer you this website

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/p...sexuality.aspx
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Show me where it says that it is punishable by death? And dont give me countries that do that because no country represents islam including Saudi

    Quranic verse is appreciated.
    You said Sharia Law does not authorise random killing.

    I have proven that it does authorise killing of homosexuals, albeit not randomly, but premeditated.

    What has this got to do with the Quran? I was refuting your claim that Sharia Law does not authorise killing when it clearly does.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    No they didn't. They said...
    "Islamophobia is a non-word, it has no real meaning. "
    Which I agree with.

    Anti-Muslim bigotry exists.
    So does criticism of and opposition to Islam.
    Both of these come under the definition of "Islamophobia", yet they are two completely different things, and those involved in the latter usually condemn the former.
    That is why it is meaningless as a term. A "non-word" as the OP said.

    Would you think it reasonable to use the same word for someone who rejects and argues against atheism, and also someone who hacks atheists to death with machetes because they are atheist? Let's call them "murdering scum".

    Now, as you reject and argue against atheism, you are presumably happy to also be called "murdering scum"?
    No?
    But why not? You are happy to do the same thing with opponents of Islam.
    Stop moving goalposts. If it makes you happy I think all religion and forms of atheism should be criticised.

    Back to the topic at hand. You said anti-Muslim bigotry exists. You said this comes under Islamaphobia. Therefore by definition, Islamaphobia must exist. Before you said it doesn't. Whether the word itself is under scrutiny and ciritcism does not nullify the fact it does exist.
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    (Original post by Onde)
    "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" - 8:12

    "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" - 2:191-193

    "Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord... So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)... If it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost." - 47:3-4
    should've done some research on the verses you were giving me.

    First verse was of a verse reveled during the battle of badr...revealed during war.... need i say more?

    also, bear in mind you need to look at the verse before this one.

    8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill fear into the hearts of the Unbelievers: Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them."
    Badr is the place where it was as if the unseen realm flooded into the world of matter. It is a place where the early Muslims learned the lesson of the power of reliance - of total reliance on Allah. And it is the place where Allah becomes a teacher to the new Muslim community - guiding them and teaching them the way of reliance on Him. Allah sends the angels from the invisible world to give firmness to the believers - their hearts became firm, their feet became firm, and then the angels, rank on rank, bring firmness to the believers at Allah's command. Here the favors of Allah, the assistance He sends have become so overwhelming, so great, that the firmness of the believers manifests itself physically, palably, to the enemy. So Allah throws fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve (not only disbelieve, but become actively, militarily hostile to belief). As already mentioned, some among the Meccans experienced dreams that were taken as bad omens. So there was a decline in confidence as word of these dreams spread through the ranks. Before the battle, the Qurayash sent out a scout on horseback to circle around the Prophet's army and report back on numbers and weaponry. The scout reported that they had few weapons and no reinforcements but he was so taken by the presence and solidity of the soldiers that he expressed uncertainty for the Quraysh despite their numbers. By the time the Meccans lined up for battle, uncertainty and fears gnawed at them. And with the rise of uncertainty and fear their strategies became weak and their superiority in weapons was nullified. As the verse says, their heads (strategies) were cut off and their fingertips (weapons and maneouvres) were nullified.Second verse (2:190) Fight in the way of Allah200 against those who fight against you but do not transgress,201 for Allah does not love transgressors.200. The believers are asked to fight those who hindered their efforts in the cause of God, and acted with hostility towards them merely because they sought to fashion human life according to the revealed guidance of God. Earlier, when they were weak and scattered, the Muslims were asked merely to preach and be patient with the wrongful repression meted out to them by their opponents. However, now that a small city state had been established in Madina they were commanded for the first time to unsheathe their swords against those who had resorted to armed hostility against their movement of reform. It was some time after this injunction that the Battle of Badr took place, to be followed by several other battles.201. The believers are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those who were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to unscrupulous methods or to the indiscriminate killing and pillage which characterized the wars of the pre-Islamic era, the Age of Ignorance. The excesses alluded to in this verse are acts such as taking up arms against women and children, the old and the injured, mutilation of the dead bodies of the enemy, uncalled-for devastation through the destruction of fields and livestock, and other similar acts of injustice and brutality. In the Hadith all these acts have been prohibited. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary.وَاقۡتُلُوۡ هُمۡ حَيۡثُ ثَقِفۡتُمُوۡهُمۡ وَاَخۡرِجُوۡهُمۡ مِّنۡ حَيۡثُ اَخۡرَجُوۡكُمۡ​ وَالۡفِتۡنَةُ اَشَدُّ مِنَ الۡقَتۡلِۚ وَلَا تُقٰتِلُوۡهُمۡ عِنۡدَ الۡمَسۡجِدِ الۡحَـرَامِ حَتّٰى يُقٰتِلُوۡكُمۡ فِيۡهِ​ۚ فَاِنۡ قٰتَلُوۡكُمۡ فَاقۡتُلُوۡهُمۡؕ كَذٰلِكَ جَزَآءُ الۡكٰفِرِيۡنَ‏ (2:191) Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing.202 Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you; but if they fight against you kill them, for that is the reward of such unbelievers.202. Here the word fitnah is used in the sense of 'persecution'. It refers to a situation whereby either a person or a group is subjected to harassment and intimidation for having accepted, as true, a set of ideas contrary to those currently held, and for striving to effect reforms in the existing order of society by preaching what is good and condemning what is wrong. Such a situation must be changed, if need be, by the force of arms.

    Bloodshed is bad, but when one group of people imposes its ideology and forcibly prevents others from accepting the truth, then it becomes guilty of an even more serious crime. In such circumstances, it is perfectly legitimate to remove that oppressive group by the force of arms.فَاِنِ انۡـتَهَوۡا فَاِنَّ اللّٰهَ غَفُوۡرٌ رَّحِيۡمٌ‏ (2:192) Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.203203. God, in whom the believers have faith, is forgiving and ready to pardon even the worst criminals and sinners after they have renounced their arrogant defiance towards Him. It is suggested that this attribute of God should be reflected in the behaviour of the believers as well. As the saying goes: 'Mould your morals according to the attributes of God.' Hence, Whenever the believers have to resort to armed conflict, they should do so not for the sake of quenching their thirst for vengeance but in the cause of God's religion. Their conflict with any group should last only as long as that group resists the cause of God. As soon as it gives up this resistance hostility should cease.وَقٰتِلُوۡهُم ۡ حَتّٰى لَا تَكُوۡنَ فِتۡنَةٌ وَّيَكُوۡنَ الدِّيۡنُ لِلّٰهِ​ؕ فَاِنِ انتَهَوۡا فَلَا عُدۡوَانَ اِلَّا عَلَى الظّٰلِمِيۡنَ‏ (2:193) Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails.204But if they desist, then know that hostility is directed only against the wrong-doers.205204. Here the term fitnah is used in a different sense from the one in which it was used above see( verse 191). It is evident from the context that fitnah refers here to the state of affairs wherein the object of obedience is someone other than God. Hence the purpose of a believer's fighting is that this fitnah should cease and obedience should be consecrated to God alone.

    An investigation of the usages of the word din (which occurs in this verse) reveals that the core of its meaning is obedience. In its technical usage, the word refers to that system of life which arises as a result of a person recognizing someone as his Lord and Sovereign and committing himself to following his commands and ordinances. This explanation of the word din makes it quite clear that when some human beings establish their godhead and absolute dominance over others, this state of affairs is one of fitnah. Islam seeks to put an end to this and replace it by a state of affairs in which people live in obedience to the laws of God alone.205. What is meant here by 'desisting' is not the abandonment of unbelief and polytheism on the part of the unbelievers but rather their desistance from active hostility to the religion enjoined by God. The unbeliever, the polytheist, the atheist, has each been, empowered to hold on to his beliefs and to worship who and whatever he wishes. In order to deliver these people from their error, Muslims are required to counsel them and tell them where their good lies. But Muslims ought not to try to achieve this purpose by resorting to force. At the same time, these misguided people have no right to either enforce the false laws of their own contriving instead of the laws of God or to drive the people of God to bondage of others than God. In order to put an end to this fitnah, both persuasion and force be used, whenever and to the extent to which each of the two is needed, and a true believer will not rest until the unbelievers give up this fitnah.

    The statement that hostility is meant only against wrong-doers seems to imply that when the true system of life replaces the false one, ordinary people should be granted a general amnesty. At the same time, however, it would be justifiable to punish those who exceeded all limits in their hostility to the Truth, at the time when they held the reins of power. Yet in dealing with such people, it becomes the true believers, after they have one final victory, to adopt a general attitude of forgiveness and tolerance towards the vanquished rather than subject them to revenge for the wrongs they committed in the past. Those criminals whose records were exceptionally bad could, however, be punished. The Prophet (peace be on him), availed himself of this permission in respect of some notorious enemies whose hostility had exceeded all limits, even though pardon and forgiveness behoved none more than him. Thus 'Uqbah ibn Abi Mu'avt and Nadr b. Harith from among the captives of the Battle of Badr were put to death and when a general amnesty, was proclaimed after the conquest of Makka four out of seventeen persons were executed. (See Ibn Hisham, vol. 1, p. 644 and vol. 2, pp. 409 ff. - Ed.) These acts were based on the permission to put to the sword those who have been conspicuously ruthless in their hostility to Islam and the Muslims.
    Not sure you even read this far, if you have then ask for the tafsir of the last verse
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Lol please learn what the shariah is. The shariah law is a set of regulation every Muslim must follow just like any British citizen must abide by the British law. It covers every aspect of life.

    There is no book of shariah and the Quran does not outline everything in the shariah. Most of shariah is from ahadith, however if it is against the teachings of the quran is not to be applied. The shariah is implemented in different ways depending on the interpretation and situation.

    Please explain how the shariah allows random killing?
    Shariah Law is an extremely bigotted rule of law, where women are casted to the undergrowth in terms of legal status. Gay people are murdered by the state, and atheists, too. Other religions need to pay a form of "tax" to live by. Thiefs and petty criminals are often punished using extreme barbaric methods, such as sawing off a criminal's hand if he stole a loaf of bread, etc.

    Are you defending this?
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    At the same time, however, it would be justifiable to punish those who exceeded all limits in their hostility to the Truth, at the time when they held the reins of power. Yet in dealing with such people, it becomes the true believers, after they have one final victory, to adopt a general attitude of forgiveness and tolerance towards the vanquished rather than subject them to revenge for the wrongs they committed in the past. Those criminals whose records were exceptionally bad could, however, be punished. The Prophet (peace be on him), availed himself of this permission in respect of some notorious enemies whose hostility had exceeded all limits, even though pardon and forgiveness behoved none more than him.
    What is the "Truth"? Because it certainly doesn't lie in some man-made ancient book. You are trying to impose a "Truth" on people with zero per cent fact, zero per cent evidence and zero per cent credibility.
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    (Original post by welshiee)
    You said Sharia Law does not authorise random killing.

    I have proven that it does authorise killing of homosexuals, albeit not randomly, but premeditated.

    What has this got to do with the Quran? I was refuting your claim that Sharia Law does not authorise killing when it clearly does.
    Give me evidence from a book of shariah that it is permisable?

    You cant because there is no such thing as a book of shariah
    if you looked at my previous post , you would have seen that i stated what the shairah is and what it comes form... it is derrived of the quran.

    Unfortunately, if the law is against the teaching s of the quran then it not a real law hence i asked for evidence form the Qur'an.
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Give me evidence from a book of shariah that it is permisable?

    You cant because there is no such thing as a book of shariah
    if you looked at my previous post , you would have seen that i stated what the shairah is and what it comes form... it is derrived of the quran.

    Unfortunately, if the law is against the teaching s of the quran then it not a real law hence i asked for evidence form the Qur'an.
    Why are you so hung up about some book written by man from the 7th century? Don't you look for facts and evidence rather than fairytales for grown ups?
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Give me evidence from a book of shariah that it is permisable?

    You cant because there is no such thing as a book of shariah
    if you looked at my previous post , you would have seen that i stated what the shairah is and what it comes form... it is derrived of the quran.

    Unfortunately, if the law is against the teaching s of the quran then it not a real law hence i asked for evidence form the Qur'an.
    The Qur'an has about as much credibility as Humpty Dumpty. ZERO per cent. Nothing. Zilch. Just like other religious scriptures, it's all man-made. You're deluded and probably indoctrinated since birth.
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    (Original post by Stormz1)
    Quran states that the killing of any individual is the same as killing the whole human kind with the exception that the person is a mass murderer them selves or create terror (are terrorist).
    Oh no you don't!
    That is not what it says at all. It says "unless for murder or for committing fasad". Fasad does not mean "terrorism". It is a vague term that includes many offences. The tafsir of Ibn Kathir and as Suddi include disobeying god's law under fasad.
    And it needs to be read in the context of the following verse, 5:33.

    If you look at the tafsir and when the verse was revealed, it was during a period of time Bedouin and clans kept killing each other in constant feuds and this was done so to end the feuds.....
    Now, this confuses me a bit. You cite tafsir as evidence that it only applies to tribal feuds in 7th century Quran, yet tafsir also states that the verse is "general in meaning and includes the idolators and all others who commit the types of crimes the Ayah mentioned".

    It also says that the offences include "opposition, contradiction and disbelief".

    It is dishonest to claim tafsir as evidence but then only quote one small part of it. Remember that if you deem it acceptable to cherry-pick the parts that suit your agenda, then it must also be acceptable for others to cherry-pick different parts to fit theirs.

    Another thing people like to say is about the law of leaving islam they are to be killed... that is utterly false. Quran states there is no compulsion in religion.
    It also says that Muslims should fight the disbelievers until all religion is for Allah and there is no more idolatry.
    I know, confusing, isn't it? Perhaps we need to examine the tafsir again.

    Quran states that say to those for you is your way(religion) and for me is mine (my religion).
    "If the Surah is read with this background in mind, one finds that it was not revealed to preach religious tolerance as some people of today seem to think" - Quran.com

    However, if you look at high treason laws in any country, there is capital punishment
    No there isn't!

    which is the same as leaving the country (betraying it)- same applied in islam
    So, in Islam, leaving your religion is as serious as betraying your country. OK.
 
 
 
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