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Motion of No Confidence in the Government watch

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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    And the sense that Jammy is using is not the usual one. Here, the MoNC has not ended (i.e. reached its end), it has been withdrawn. It would sound weird to say 'the match ended' when it was called off.
    There are three options:
    1) it never started, easy to prove otherwise unless Fez gets the old thread binned;
    2) it is still in progress, easy to argue otherwise given it was withdrawn and this motion unconstitutionally raised;
    3) it ended.

    So are you going to continue arguing that there was no motion even though we all saw it, or are you going to argue that it is still ongoing?

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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Because I was, as I stated, using it in the decidedly abnormal sense that Jammy used it, not the normal one. There is no good reason for taking an interpretation of 'ended' other than 'reached its end' here.
    How can something reach its ends and not progress and somehow be neither ongoing or ended?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    How can something reach its ends and not progress and somehow be neither ongoing or ended?
    Because neither is convenient

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    There are three options:
    1) it never started, easy to prove otherwise unless Fez gets the old thread binned;
    2) it is still in progress, easy to argue otherwise given it was withdrawn and this motion unconstitutionally raised;
    3) it ended.

    So are you going to continue arguing that there was no motion even though we all saw it, or are you going to argue that it is still ongoing?

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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    How can something reach its ends and not progress and somehow be neither ongoing or ended?
    Ended does not normally mean simply 'not ongoing'. It means, in common language, that it has reached a point, defined in advance, which is noted to be its termination. You are twisting the language to suit your point.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Ended does not normally mean simply 'not ongoing'. It means, in common language, that it has reached a point, defined in advance, which is noted to be its termination. You are twisting the language to suit your point.
    Ummm...

    "a point that marks the limit of something : the point at which something no longer continues to happen or exist"

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/end

    I'm not sure perfectly confirming to definition is "twisting the language," unless you're also changing the definition of that phrase too.

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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Ended does not normally mean simply 'not ongoing'. It means, in common language, that it has reached a point, defined in advance, which is noted to be its termination. You are twisting the language to suit your point.

    One side definitely is twisting language:
    Google definitions of ended
    come or bring to a final point; finish.
    reach a point and go no further.
    perform a final act.

    It reached a point where it has gone no further so it has ended.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Ummm...

    "a point that marks the limit of something : the point at which something no longer continues to happen or exist"

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/end

    I'm not sure perfectly confirming to definition is "twisting the language," unless you're also changing the definition of that phrase too.

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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    One side definitely is twisting language:
    Google definitions of ended
    come or bring to a final point; finish.
    reach a point and go no further.
    perform a final act.

    It reached a point where it has gone no further so it has ended.
    The only one of these definitions which supports your interpretations is 'reach a point and go no further'. Something is 'final' is when it reaches the defined point at which it is intended to finish. The point which marks the limit of something is directly contrary to something being brought abruptly to an end.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    The only one of these definitions which supports your interpretations is 'reach a point and go no further'. Something is 'final' is when it reaches the defined point at which it is intended to finish. The point which marks the limit of something is directly contrary to something being brought abruptly to an end.
    So the definition says it has ended.
    come or bring to a final point; finish. Is the original motion continuing or has it reached a final point?

    The point at which something no longer continues to happen or exist. It exists that is unquestionable, is it now continuing?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    So the definition says it has ended.
    come or bring to a final point; finish. Is the original motion continuing or has it reached a final point?

    The point at which something no longer continues to happen or exist. It exists that is unquestionable, is it now continuing?
    It is neither continuing, nor has it reached a final point. A final point is a specific type of ceasing: one which is planned; expected. The conventional meaning of ending is the same.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    It is neither continuing, nor has it reached a final point. A final point is a specific type of ceasing: one which is planned; expected. The conventional meaning of ending is the same.
    No it has reached its final point, a final point doesn't require it to be planned or expected it is where it ends up.

    If a vote has to take place for it to count as ended why does the constitution not say vote instead of motion?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    No it has reached its final point, a final point doesn't require it to be planned or expected it is where it ends up.

    If a vote has to take place for it to count as ended why does the constitution not say vote instead of motion?
    The GD uses 'vote' and 'motion' interchangeably, they are clearly regarded as the same.

    Again, think back to the football game. If it is called off at half time, nobody reasonable would say it has reached its 'final point'.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    The GD uses 'vote' and 'motion' interchangeably, they are clearly regarded as the same.

    Again, think back to the football game. If it is called off at half time, nobody reasonable would say it has reached its 'final point'.
    That is because in England the game would be restarted as the rules dictate it is still the same game just restarted, can you restart the original motion?

    If we are going to use a sport to compare it to it should be baseball when a game is rained off half way through it is classed as complete so it has reached its final point, this is more applicable as abandoned football game rules vary significantly depending on the competition.

    Test match Cricket the game starts from the last point unless all remaining play is rained out in which case it is called a tie but it still reaches a final point.

    Or in other sports the game continues from where it last was, so can you continue the last motion?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    That is because in England the game would be restarted as the rules dictate it is still the same game just restarted, can you restart the original motion?

    If we are going to use a sport to compare it to it should be baseball when a game is rained off half way through it is classed as complete so it has reached its final point, this is more applicable as abandoned football game rules vary significantly depending on the competition.

    Test match Cricket the game starts from the last point unless all remaining play is rained out in which case it is called a tie but it still reaches a final point.

    Or in other sports the game continues from where it last was, so can you continue the last motion?
    The situation is most analogous to football. Crucially, no result has been reached. The motion did not fail.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    The situation is most analogous to football. Crucially, no result has been reached. The motion did not fail.
    Ending does not require success or failure, it requires cessation. Until you can prove that somehow the process never ceased the previous motion failed. Unless you can then go on to prove that it never started we then have to ask why a second motion was accepted.

    Or alternatively you go and get on the phone and explain that the definitions are wrong and ask for them to be changed.

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    I will be supporting this MoNC (unless my party finds a way to de-select me first... :rolleyes:). The Tories behaviour over the last few days has been atrocious.
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    (Original post by TitanCream)
    I can no longer support this government as a liberal MP. I realise that I am most likely going to be criticised and possibly lose my role but I think that us liberals need a break from government and perhaps a one party government is better for the house.
    Point of note as a newbie but if you ever want to lead the Liberals in the moons to come , this is the type of thing that you bring up internally. By publicly backing a VoNC what your also saying is that you don't have confidence in the governing parties and by extension Liberals.

    That said, your reason is at least more valid than most even if you did declare unwavering support less than a week ago.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Point of note as a newbie but if you ever want to lead the Liberals in the moons to come , this is the type of thing that you bring up internally. By publicly backing a VoNC what your also saying is that you don't have confidence in the governing parties and by extension Liberals.

    That said, your reason is at least more valid than most even if you did declare unwavering support less than a week ago.
    A valid reason raised repeatedly by members of the party, ignored by the Liberal leadership.
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    (Original post by JoeL1994)
    A valid reason raised repeatedly by members of the party, ignored by the Liberal leadership.
    Then instead of declaring no confidence in your own party publicly you should have declared no confidence in your leadership and pushed for coalition withdrawl.

    One can only assume that since you felt the need to defect, Petros is rather secure and supported by the masses even if a minority want out.
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    Given the evidence, i say Aye.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Ending does not require success or failure, it requires cessation. Until you can prove that somehow the process never ceased the previous motion failed. Unless you can then go on to prove that it never started we then have to ask why a second motion was accepted.

    Or alternatively you go and get on the phone and explain that the definitions are wrong and ask for them to be changed.

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    I mean, this is just pulled out of your arse, isn't it. The MoNC quite possibly won't pass, but these desperate, ridiculous contortions quite against the spirit of the game expose quite how far the Tory party is willing to go to 'win' at this silly game.
 
 
 
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