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    (Original post by zayn008)
    That wasn't the point I was making, the point is that the terror and ideology doesn't die with the organisation (as seen with the over throwing of Ba'ath). Instead it splinters and evolves, you get an eruption of new groups some way more extreme than its predecessors.
    The issue here is that Palestine isn't as harshly controlled as Iraq, so there is a lot less to release than was seen in Iraq. Saddam was harshly oppressing these ideas and hence when the anarchy of the American invasion happened the coiled spring was released.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    You have a point. However, it is **** in there, and Israel is a first world country. If Israel was able to occupy it like America did to Germany and Japan it could potentially rebuild it in the same way, while dealing with Hamas somewhat.


    I have met a few people like that, they are quite rare. I think the term regressive left is a good term for these people, as it distinguishes them from genuine progressives and regular leftists when used honestly, although it does become an insult in some hands ( I mean, I have heard people often use right wing as an insult).

    To be fair, a large chunk of the feminist movement and academics are quite anti-men, and that sort of defines the movement as that is what we see the movement doing. There are plenty of terms that mean equality without the feminist name anyway.
    In terms of occupying Gaza on a more internal level and rebuilding it, that would be an idea and may solve it. But honestly, I don't think Israel has any political will to do that. The Israelis are stuck in the same hawkish, neo-Con, demonising the enemy mindset of America - and rebuilding it would require some maturity that doesn't really exist in today's political climate, not to mention resources. They can already protect themselves quite well, and although they are the richest country in the region, they don't quite have the resources of the US (although a lot of their resources are FROM the US!) to be able to accomplish such a task.

    For me, a "regressive left" if there was one - would be what I could "tribal Labour".

    They just vote Labour because they're working class, with no thought to the principles behind it.

    These people are increasingly rare nowadays though (hence, why Labour has struggled so much).

    With regards to feminism, I would call myself a feminist and I genuinely want to see the prominent sources that are anti-men.

    I can never find any (and I'm not saying that merely as a defence of feminism).

    I asked my friend who assures me there are many to cite one and he sighted Woolstonecroft. I remembered thinking "eh?" as we studied her at uni and she was so moderate that she wouldn't really be considered feminist at all by today's standards - she accepted the superiority of men (she was around in the 1700s after all) but still thought that women should have more power than they currently did.

    So I researched Woolstonecroft in the context of demonising men and still no joy. So, my search continues for the men-haters!!

    So I do ask, earnestly, for sources of the prominent, respected and accepted anti-men feminists. Really, so I can verify that it's not just something to bring down the feminist movement (the movement for gender equality - I always specify the real definition even though I feel sad having to do so) and that it is strong and real.

    As someone who has studied feminism as in the context of the advancement of women - not the destruction of men, I can certainly say that the majority of the movement certainly isn't anti-men (at least the prominent mainstream part of it that I am a part of), but I'm genuinely interested to find the fringe, extremist bit and appreciate sources.
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    (Original post by J_89)
    For me, a "regressive left" if there was one - would be what I could "tribal Labour".

    They just vote Labour because they're working class, with no thought to the principles behind it.

    These people are increasingly rare nowadays though (hence, why Labour has struggled so much).

    With regards to feminism, I would call myself a feminist and I genuinely want to see the prominent sources that are anti-men.

    I can never find any (and I'm not saying that merely as a defence of feminism).

    I asked my friend who assures me there are many to cite one and he sighted Woolstonecroft. I remembered thinking "eh?" as we studied her at uni and she was so moderate that she wouldn't really be considered feminist at all by today's standards - she accepted the superiority of men (she was around in the 1700s after all) but still thought that women should have more power than they currently did.

    So I researched Woolstonecroft in the context of demonising men and still no joy. So, my search continues for the men-haters!!

    So I do ask, earnestly, for sources of the prominent anti-men feminists. Really, so I can verify that it's not just something to bring down the feminist movement (the movement for gender equality - I always specify the real definition even though I feel sad having to do so) and that it is strong and real.

    As someone who has studied feminism as in the context of the advancement of women - not the destruction of men, I can certainly say that the majority of the movement certainly isn't anti-men (at least the prominent mainstream part of it that I am a part of), but I'm genuinely interested to find the fringe, extremist bit and appreciate sources.
    Google Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Jessica Valenti and maybe Anita Sarkeesian's stuff on actual feminism for a start. This is the vanguard of the feminist movement and the literature which underlies it. Then go after big red and go into places like GamerGhazi and TwoXChromosomes. You could have a look on /r/mensrights, there are often cases of feminists shutting down MRA things. For instance, they shut down a male domestic abuse shelter, and as a result the founder killed himself.

    Go on Sargon of Akkad's channel too, and watch the videos on feminism there, he has a playlist highlighting hundreds upon thousands of instances of issues within the feminist movement.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    Google Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Jessica Valenti and maybe Anita Sarkeesian's stuff on actual feminism for a start. This is the vanguard of the feminist movement and the literature which underlies it. Then go after big red and go into places like GamerGhazi and TwoXChromosomes. You could have a look on /r/mensrights, there are often cases of feminists shutting down MRA things. For instance, they shut down a male domestic abuse shelter, and as a result the founder killed himself.

    Go on Sargon of Akkad's channel too, and watch the videos on feminism there, he has a playlist highlighting hundreds upon thousands of instances of issues within the feminist movement.
    Will do, thanks for the info.
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    (Original post by J_89)
    Will do, thanks for the info.
    Not a problem.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    Google Andrea Dworkin, Valerie Solanas, Jessica Valenti and maybe Anita Sarkeesian's stuff on actual feminism for a start. This is the vanguard of the feminist movement and the literature which underlies it. Then go after big red and go into places like GamerGhazi and TwoXChromosomes. You could have a look on /r/mensrights, there are often cases of feminists shutting down MRA things. For instance, they shut down a male domestic abuse shelter, and as a result the founder killed himself.

    Go on Sargon of Akkad's channel too, and watch the videos on feminism there, he has a playlist highlighting hundreds upon thousands of instances of issues within the feminist movement.
    Everything I've seen of the MRA movement has just been attacking legit feminism and women's rights issues.

    However, I'm pro REAL men's rights, such as male domestic abuse shelters, paternal custody rights and a man's right to choose whether he is a parent or not (some interesting legislation being introduced in Sweden), so if there are some people calling themselves feminists who are attacking male refuges that is definitely a stain on the movement.
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    (Original post by J_89)
    Everything I've seen of the MRA movement has just been attacking legit feminism and women's rights issues.

    However, I'm pro REAL men's rights, such as male domestic abuse shelters, paternal custody rights and a man's right to choose whether he is a parent or not (some interesting legislation being introduced in Sweden), so if there are some people calling themselves feminists who are attacking male refuges that is definitely a stain on the movement.
    Well, I have a completely different perspective. I have seen some women hating MRAs but the majority of them seem to be ok people.
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    (Original post by TercioOfParma)
    Well, I have a completely different perspective. I have seen some women hating MRAs but the majority of them seem to be ok people.
    Interesting, I'd definitely check more of them out.

    People who genuinely want to enhance men's rights and not just bash feminism, I'm all for.

    I actually thought of joining Father's for Justice as I've known so many men destroyed by the ridiculous legal custody bias.

    The thing is that, feminism, is quite an unfortunate name - it has connotations of the glorification of the feminine.

    But most feminists I know also advocate men's rights. If you take the Emma Watson speech, where she highlighted how rigid gender roles also hurt men.

    The MRA from what I saw, seemed to see no union of the struggle for less discrimination against men for being men with women for being women (and that it is actually two sides of the same coin and the same incorrect system) - and just wanted to enhance the polarity of men vs women (i.e. gender wars) and bury feminism/the advocacy of women's rights.

    But I must say I've not watched a lot of MRA vids so will definitely check more of it out.

    I'd advise you also not to take your view of feminism from a group with a specific point to prove. Things are generally quite nuanced, but you seem like quite a rational guy (or girl lol!)
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    (Original post by zayn008)
    Omg. Someone said why doesn't Israel overthrow Hamas, I said "it's a shame we never tried that with Ba'ath" trying to hint at the consequences it will lead to such as more terrorism, ideological splits and I was pointing out that the ideology doesn't die with the regime, if the regime is over thrown the ideology often splits and evolves allowing room for extremist ideology, that's exactly what happened in Iraq and AQI took advantage
    Hind sight is a fine thing! If you even knows what that means?!?
 
 
 
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