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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Name one thing a person from Hartlepool gets from Brexit that is quantifiably a good thing. I'll warrant you cannot think of any - its not like there are zillions of Poles walking around Hartlepool taking all the jobs up there. From the available stats there are hardly any East Europeans in Hartlepool at all.

    Whereas an EU contractor loses his family's income and could end up in a financial mess.

    So yes, being outed as a Homosexual in the 1950s probably would mean the loss of your job and perhaps ended up with you in prison.

    Being outed as a UK worker in the EU after Brexit has completed would mean the loss of your job (no longer EU citizen) and perhaps ended up with you in prison (working in the EU but not a citizen is a crime).
    So what ? move to Germany and apply to become a German citizen, the idea that the EU has zero impact on the lives of average Joe is as insulting to Mr.Joe as it is to the EU.

    Are you then saying that the EU body is a superfluous institution given how little influence on the inhabitants of it's member states, because that's what it sounds like.

    At this point you are flogging a dead horse, the votes are in and we are leaving, again I'll say it, maybe you should consider moving to an EU member state and applying to become a citizen.

    I would ask if you had any desirable skills, but, it doesn't matter at the moment, I hear Germany are accepting everyone. Which again is mainly Africans/Arabs and this I believe was the tipping point for Brexit, these groups are causing so much trouble in every country that they reside in.

    Report it if you like, the statistics speak for themselves and everyone knows about it, people have stopped caring about the cause, more still have started to (and rightly so) get angry when they are told that we are the reason, that we are somehow causing Muslims to blow us up or we are causing blacks to commit disproportionate levels of crime in our cities and towns.
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    I'm not so sure. I suspect if a new referendum was taken it would probably be 65% in favour of staying in the EU
    Which is why polling still shows a leave lead and a majority say it was the right decision. Throw on top of that having a load of soft remainers going leave because there has just been a referendum and you see a big leave win

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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    People worked in Europe before the EU, and they'll continue to do so after. It might even be on the same terms.
    These rights are not guaranteed by Brexit. It is entirely possible for us to lose freedom of movement, as many leavers want, though whether we will will depend on what kind of deal the Government gets with the EU.

    'People working in Europe' isn't the same thing as free movement.
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    (Original post by ZeroFree)
    These rights are not guaranteed by Brexit. It is entirely possible for us to lose freedom of movement, as many leavers want, though whether we will will depend on what kind of deal the Government gets with the EU.

    'People working in Europe' isn't the same thing as free movement.
    Of course it's not guaranteed - but it might work out ok. And if it doesn't - my point is it won't be that bad. A few people at the margins will lose out in a small way or be inconvenienced a little bit.
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    Of course it's not guaranteed - but it might work out ok. And if it doesn't - my point is it won't be that bad. A few people at the margins will lose out in a small way or be inconvenienced a little bit.
    Then your original post was wrong. This isn't all ''UK statute''. Some things may indeed change, which is what the OP was saying.

    Do you know how many people, British and European, travel to/from the UK every year?
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    (Original post by ZeroFree)
    Then your original post was wrong. This isn't all ''UK statute''. Some things may indeed change, which is what the OP was saying.

    Do you know how many people, British and European, travel to/from the UK every year?
    This isn't sensible. Of course it's UK statute, otherwise it would have no legal effect.

    The point is that all this law which originated from EU membership is given effect by UK (or rather English) law. The fact of Brexit does not mean these laws will be automatically repealed - which is the clear implication and scaremongering that has been rife from bitter Remainers.

    Sure- the statute is not guaranteed. But no statute is guaranteed. There is nothing stopping the government repealing any law. The compulsory wearing of seatbelts could be repealed.

    But EU-orignated law like WTD won't automatically disappear. Why should it?

    For example - as a result of EU, there are legal guides on what child ca seats may or may not be used. As a result of Brexit, are you seriously suggesting that this would change? Why would it? Without any pressing reason, we won't change that framework and you'll still be obliged by UK law - based on older EU law to use certain child seats

    Why would Labour Law be any different? Do you think we'll suddenly go back to using pounds and ounces?

    And all these negatives - what about the positives? Would you be in favour of a return to the lower rate of VAT that we used to have on energy bills before the EU enforced the full rate?
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    This isn't sensible. Of course it's UK statute, otherwise it would have no legal effect.

    The point is that all this law which originated from EU membership is given effect by UK (or rather English) law. The fact of Brexit does not mean these laws will be automatically repealed - which is the clear implication and scaremongering that has been rife from bitter Remainers.

    Sure- the statute is not guaranteed. But no statute is guaranteed. There is nothing stopping the government repealing any law. The compulsory wearing of seatbelts could be repealed.

    But EU-orignated law like WTD won't automatically disappear. Why should it?

    For example - as a result of EU, there are legal guides on what child ca seats may or may not be used. As a result of Brexit, are you seriously suggesting that this would change? Why would it? Without any pressing reason, we won't change that framework and you'll still be obliged by UK law - based on older EU law to use certain child seats

    Why would Labour Law be any different? Do you think we'll suddenly go back to using pounds and ounces?

    And all these negatives - what about the positives? Would you be in favour of a return to the lower rate of VAT that we used to have on energy bills before the EU enforced the full rate?
    My argument isn't about the WTD, labour laws, etc. Why are you bringing these up?

    I'm talking about free movement, which isn't comparable to any of those as it does not necessitate collaboration between two separate countries. Free movement does.
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    (Original post by ZeroFree)
    My argument isn't about the WTD, labour laws, etc. Why are you bringing these up?

    I'm talking about free movement, which isn't comparable to any of those as it does not necessitate collaboration between two separate countries. Free movement does.
    This whole thread is about Brexit apparently "stealing" a whole host of rights. It wasn't clear to me which you were thinking might disappear.

    Free movement might well go - then again it might not. We don't know.

    But if it does, at very worst, we'll be in no different a situation to most other countries outside the EU. British people live and work in other non- EU countries all the time without too much difficulty.

    My question would be - how much of a detriment is it really to not be able to go to an EU country at will and seek work there? How many people actually ever did so?
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    This whole thread is about Brexit apparently "stealing" a whole host of rights. It wasn't clear to me which you were thinking might disappear.

    Free movement might well go - then again it might not. We don't know.

    But if it does, at very worst, we'll be in no different a situation to most other countries outside the EU. British people live and work in other non- EU countries all the time without too much difficulty.

    My question would be - how much of a detriment is it really to not be able to go to an EU country at will and seek work there? How many people actually ever did so?
    Mostly required in complex stuff where collaboration is required between departments in different countries, I assume; like in science (which as I believe is pretty important to the UK)
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Mostly required in complex stuff where collaboration is required between departments in different countries, I assume; like in science (which as I believe is pretty important to the UK)
    So I am to believe that trans-national scientific collaboration between the UK and non-EU countries is nigh on impossible?

    Good thing they built that CERN thing in the EU, wasn't it?

    Oh wait...
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    So I am to believe that trans-national scientific collaboration between the UK and non-EU countries is nigh on impossible?

    Good thing they built that CERN thing in the EU, wasn't it?

    Oh wait...
    Maybe if we sneak over to CERN and steal the collider to 'make Britain great again'?
    Suppose wouldn't be an issue if was just huge projects such as that.
    But appears to be an issue for every sub-field of every science. Though suppose maybe equally an issue in getting the expertise over here.

    I assume that getting in and out of the country will be difficult - considering we need to considerably upscale staff in those departments, and with no one to do the jobs. A bit like our supply of GP's and, increasingly nurses.
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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Maybe if we sneak over to CERN and steal the collider to 'make Britain great again'?
    Suppose wouldn't be an issue if was just huge projects such as that.
    But appears to be an issue for every sub-field of every science. Though suppose maybe equally an issue in getting the expertise over here.

    I assume that getting in and out of the country will be difficult - considering we need to considerably upscale staff in those departments, and with no one to do the jobs. A bit like our supply of GP's and, increasingly nurses.
    It doesn't seem to be a problem in any university department I've seen - the overwhelming barrier seems not to be trans-national bureacracy, but culture, legal system and overwhelmingly language.

    We do a ton of collaboration with Americans because they speak English, are culturally similar and have similar intellectual property protections. We don't do a ton of work with China because of the opposite case. Europe I suppose is in-between
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    It doesn't seem to be a problem in any university department I've seen - the overwhelming barrier seems not to be trans-national bureacracy, but culture, legal system and overwhelmingly language.

    We do a ton of collaboration with Americans because they speak English, are culturally similar and have similar intellectual property protections. We don't do a ton of work with China because of the opposite case. Europe I suppose is in-between
    Yeah, completely agree. I rarely see any collaboration between the Chinese or Japanese and English. Which is a shame.
    At the moment it seems fine. But I imagine if there is a sort of semi-closed border policy as was wished for by Brexiters, such collaboration will be considerably inhibited?
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    It doesn't seem to be a problem in any university department I've seen - the overwhelming barrier seems not to be trans-national bureacracy, but culture, legal system and overwhelmingly language.

    We do a ton of collaboration with Americans because they speak English, are culturally similar and have similar intellectual property protections. We don't do a ton of work with China because of the opposite case. Europe I suppose is in-between
    We're a lot closer to most of the world than Europe, simply because of empire, English is a very common language outside Europe, especially professionally, you have common law rather than Napoleonic law, and generally strong relations in the first place.

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    (Original post by hellodave5)
    Yeah, completely agree. I rarely see any collaboration between the Chinese or Japanese and English. Which is a shame.
    At the moment it seems fine. But I imagine if there is a sort of semi-closed border policy as was wished for by Brexiters, such collaboration will be considerably inhibited?
    I don't understand why this would be the case - as so many things with Brexit.

    Brexit is about relations with the EU - surely this would mean better relations with other countries, not worse.
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    (Original post by Trinculo)
    I don't understand why this would be the case - as so many things with Brexit.

    Brexit is about relations with the EU - surely this would mean better relations with other countries, not worse.
    I'm not an expert on these things, so I can only approach it with lay assumptions and knowledge really.

    I assume the loss of freedom to go to other places at your need brings a bit of an ache, especially when you have to collaberate closely on an international level and over long periods of time on projects. With the lack of staffing of immigration peoples, I imagine there will be problems at least in the short to mid term?

    Brexit has been voted for by the lay people seemingly in the way of creating a practical wall around us, to prevent them from getting in... or infiltrating us.
    We have lost a considerable amount of soft power or will do eventually. I don't see there being better relations as a consequence of 'Brexit'.

    Though, I would be very interested and happy to hear why that may be the case that better relations may be fostered! Some positivity out of this whole mess is always nice!
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