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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I did not say that women are explicitly not allowed to chose STEM subjects? When did I say that?

    I said that because of socialisation and attitudinal barriers women are more likely to chose non-STEM subjects. It's always a surprise when a woman chooses one, whereas with a man it's a given. You are a minority, perhaps you should take time to think why that is.
    Well, maybe men and women are different. Radical idea, I know. Perhaps you are technically right, and in a society with no socialisation or expectations, we would see a higher proportion of women doing STEM, but I honestly think that if we magically got rid of gendered societal pressures, we would still see more men going into STEM. It is the STEMophile (is this a thing? I guess it can be..) culture, and the rather ugly Capitalist expectation of everyone to be competitive and to try to climb the corporate ladder, make something of themselves and put a "career" before anything else, that turn this into a problem.
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    A long time ago: A noble movement of people who where oppressed by a system that did not guarantee them the liberties that they deserved in a rapidly industrializing society.

    Now: well............ best way of putting it is a mob of jealous, foolish, self-interested narcissists who take out all of their insecurities (possibly insecurities based on their gender and what it means for them) on those of the opposite gender.

    In saying that, in certain areas of the world women certainly are being oppressed and whilst I do hate the cultist zealous form of feminism here in the west, there are MINOR issues with how women can be perceived but I would argue its often a lot to do with how they are dressed.

    Equality is what it says on the tin: Every PERSON has equal rights. In the 21st century we should be more broad in how we approach this and not create forms of positive discrimination.
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    Feminism... The word itself is controversial. I prefer the term equalist.
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    (Original post by NotNotBatman)
    Where's the survey?
    https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/BYRBND5
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    I believe in intersectional feminism, as this actually takes into account real life issues that women face worldwide; such as FGM or "honour killings". However, the tricky part about this is that a lot of these issues that women face worldwide are part of the culture of where they life (Middle East or Africa) and Islam is usually a large part of this. And yet, a lot of western feminists are quick to defend Islam as "empowering", so in the end, no actual progress is made. There are women movements in Iran, but overall, it is harder to speak out in these countries; yet in the West, some feminists are too preoccupied arguing over nipples and armpit hair. It's frustrating, but I believe that feminism that actually helps women across the world is beneficial.*
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    You have completely missed the point of my post, to the extent where you actually support it!

    I did not say that women are explicitly not allowed to chose STEM subjects? When did I say that?

    I said that because of socialisation and attitudinal barriers women are more likely to chose non-STEM subjects. It's always a surprise when a woman chooses one, whereas with a man it's a given. You are a minority, perhaps you should take time to think why that is.

    Exactly- who do we blame? What do you think is to blame?

    I can't believe you missed the point. Clearly STEM isn't everything...

    Also, do you want me to give you a "well done" for going to a "very good school" in "Central London"? Why are you looking for social approval from me?

    I went to a **** school in the Valleys, umm poor me?
    I mentioned where it was and the fact that it is good, to show that there were literally no physical barriers. No resource shortages or lack of funding, which some schools do actually have even in the UK. It is a state school so I am not trying to show off or anything, merely trying to say that students at my school have a lot of opportunities and options- so why don't you relax a lil bit?

    Can you give me some examples of 'socialisation and attitudinal barriers' that exist currently?
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I'll do the survey OP. Although I don't think this is the best to recruit participants.

    Firstly how representative are forum users of the normal, student population?

    Secondly, by telling people the topic of the survey, you are going to attract those with the strongest views. Those with more neutral or less extreme views are less likely to spend time filling your survey in.

    I don't think you should have told people the topic of your survey, this is going to skew your results I feel.


    https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/BYRBND5
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    Well, maybe men and women are different. Radical idea, I know. Perhaps you are technically right, and in a society with no socialisation or expectations, we would see a higher proportion of women doing STEM, but I honestly think that if we magically got rid of gendered societal pressures, we would still see more men going into STEM. It is the STEMophile (is this a thing? I guess it can be..) culture, and the rather ugly Capitalist expectation of everyone to be competitive and to try to climb the corporate ladder, make something of themselves and put a "career" before anything else, that turn this into a problem.
    Do you mean in terms of intelligence or personality characteristics?

    The psychological research concerning the environmental differences in influencing education and career choices is much, much more convincing than the research concerning biological differences though. That's from what I've seen anyway. Obviously both factors play an influence, but the environmental factors play a larger role.
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    (Original post by lahorizon)
    I mentioned where it was and the fact that it is good, to show that there were literally no physical barriers. No resource shortages or lack of funding, which some schools do actually have even in the UK. It is a state school so I am not trying to show off or anything, merely trying to say that students at my school have a lot of opportunities and options- so why don't you relax a lil bit?

    Can you give me some examples of 'socialisation and attitudinal barriers' that exist currently?
    I'm sorry but that's so ignorant. I made it so clear that I was not referring to physical barriers. And you seem to think that prejudice or social barriers can only be physical, such as laws and policies. Do you realise how naive that is, there are no longer racist laws in the US, therefore blacks are no longer victims of racism. That is your logic.

    I still see no relevance to your school reference. Other than the fact that you clearly haven't experienced barriers that your working class peers have. But that's besides the point?

    I'll send you research papers later. Better than explaining. Although you should try and use your common sense a little.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    I'm sorry but that's so ignorant. I made it so clear that I was not referring to physical barriers. And you seem to think that prejudice or social barriers can only be physical, such as laws and policies. Do you realise how naive that is, there are no longer racist laws in the US, therefore blacks are no longer victims of racism. That is your logic.

    I still see no relevance to your school reference. Other than the fact that you clearly haven't experienced barriers that your working class peers have. But that's besides the point?

    I'll send you research papers later. Better than explaining. Although you should try and use your common sense a little.
    I simply asked for some examples?

    I know there is racism in USA because I can look at statistics of how many of them are imprisoned and given unfair sentences, and I see people protesting against them in the South. In the UK, I don't see any statistics which suggest people hate women or treat them unfairly.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    Do you mean in terms of intelligence or personality characteristics?

    The psychological research concerning the environmental differences in influencing education and career choices is much, much more convincing than the research concerning biological differences though. That's from what I've seen anyway. Obviously both factors play an influence, but the environmental factors play a larger role.
    I meant personality characteristics. Although it is worth noting that a higher proportion of men have exceptional IQs - either very high or very low - and typically people on STEM courses have higher IQs than people on non-stem courses, and, indeed, relatively high ones compared to the overall population (in the US for instance Physics students have an IQ of 133 on average IIRC, Maths around 130, and other STEM subjects tending to be in the 120s) This might partially explain why less men go to university on the whole but STEM departments tend to have more men.

    Well, I am open-minded with regards to all this, as I have mostly seen empty rhetoric from both sides of the argument. So I would be interested to see something more reliable. I do have a hunch that the teaching of mathematics especially in schools is liable to make the subject put off more girls - more people in general, but especially girls, I think - than it should.
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    I meant personality characteristics. Although it is worth noting that a higher proportion of men have exceptional IQs - either very high or very low - and typically people on STEM courses have higher IQs than people on non-stem courses, and, indeed, relatively high ones compared to the overall population (in the US for instance Physics students have an IQ of 133 on average IIRC, Maths around 130, and other STEM subjects tending to be in the 120s) This might partially explain why less men go to university on the whole but STEM departments tend to have more men.

    Well, I am open-minded with regards to all this, as I have mostly seen empty rhetoric from both sides of the argument. So I would be interested to see something more reliable. I do have a hunch that the teaching of mathematics especially in schools is liable to make the subject put off more girls - more people in general, but especially girls, I think - than it should.
    If you're interested in early socialisation research then http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/11/...plicit-sexism/ is an interesting read - it links to some studies on how parents (mainly mothers tbh) treat their babies differently based on their gender at a critical developmental stage (plus some practical suggestions for how to help raise both boys and girls without falling into those stereotypes). The research papers linked are US based but it surprised me how differently people treat babies based on gender (and doesn't surprise me that socialising babies differently can result in differences in brain and social development)
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    (Original post by lahorizon)
    I simply asked for some examples?

    I know there is racism in USA because I can look at statistics of how many of them are imprisoned and given unfair sentences, and I see people protesting against them in the South. In the UK, I don't see any statistics which suggest people hate women or treat them unfairly.
    There is a gender sentencing gap the gap between men and women is wider than black and whites.

    The courts are actually told that they should be nicer to women as they suffer from disadvantages and the courts should 'bear these matters in mind' they are also told to ask themselves 'whether it is unjust to women' that society has applied it's perceptions of the appropriate to males for female offenders.

    Female on male dv is downplayed in these court guidelines despite studies showing that over 40% of the time men are the victim and in around half it is reciprocal.

    https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont...-amendment.pdf

    The way dv is portrayed as something that is done almost always by males on women shows the attitudes of courts towards men.
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    Wrong.

    Completely wrong. Saying that "I am an egalitarian" is about just as much use as saying "I am not a racist". It's an excuse to give hateful sentences such as "women ruin men's lives on a daily basis". It's a pathetic form of social desirability. Just because you say you are egalitarian, that in no way means that you are. Especially when your actions (your expression of hate filled beliefs) say the precise opposite.

    Egalitarian is defined by a number of cultural beliefs and ideologies, and can be assessed by an evidence based questionnaire which has proven validitity. I've administered that questionnaire over the past year myself and have got significant results using it.

    I can guarantee that if I gave you that questionnaire, you will not provide egalitarian responses.
    I don't believe all women ruin mens lives on a daily basis I said SOME and why do you keep bringing up racism according to your logic if I was a feminist and a
    woman murdered someone I would have to say she is innocent because I'm a
    feminist because you are saying because I believe some women do these things I am not for equality against the sexes
    and I dont have hate filled beliefs
    and egalitarian is an ideology not something you go out and test people for
    I don't really care about your test because as you said it is defined by many
    beliefs and ideologies so how can a simple questionnaire determine it
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    Wrong.

    Completely wrong. Saying that "I am an egalitarian" is about just as much use as saying "I am not a racist". It's an excuse to give hateful sentences such as "women ruin men's lives on a daily basis". It's a pathetic form of social desirability. Just because you say you are egalitarian, that in no way means that you are. Especially when your actions (your expression of hate filled beliefs) say the precise opposite.

    Egalitarian is defined by a number of cultural beliefs and ideologies, and can be assessed by an evidence based questionnaire which has proven validitity. I've administered that questionnaire over the past year myself and have got significant results using it.

    I can guarantee that if I gave you that questionnaire, you will not provide egalitarian responses.
    I don't believe all women ruin mens lives on a daily basis I said SOME and why do you keep bringing up racism according to your logic if I was a feminist and a
    woman murdered someone I would have to say she is innocent because I'm a
    feminist because you are saying because I believe some women do these things I am not for equality against the sexes
    and I dont have hate filled beliefs
    and egalitarian is an ideology not something you go out and test people for
    I don't really care about your test because as you said it is defined by many
    beliefs and ideologies so how can a simple questionnaire determine it
    and also why are we still arguing it is counter productive
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Nowadays, it's mostly boring, empty whines from boring, empty people.

    At least, if the typical university feminist is anything to go by.
    'I'm a right wing student, look how cool, edgy and independent I am'

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