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Guardian: 'We are Europeans. Brexit will make us face up to it' Watch

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    (Original post by Elastichedgehog)
    Well damn, I had no idea, it kind of looks quite cool.

    Anyway, I'm pro European, considering Britain's been part of the EU since I was born and that's literally all I've known. I don't quite understand why we'd make a choice with so much economic uncertainty but hey that's democracy. I understand there are plenty of problems with the EU though, for example the legitimacy of the European Commission etc. and if there was a justified reason for voting out in June then I can't hold anyone against that (presuming that justification wasn't motivated by any racist/xenophobic intent) I suppose I've never identified myself as European but that doesn't mean I don't want to be ^.^
    Your comment is proof so many remainers are ignorant to reality and know no more or even less than the so called uneducated leave supporters. We are European, Europe does not equal the EU, get that in your head and move on.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I thought you said it was about embracing a diverse identity and not about common roots or monoculture. Now you're saying certain unions can't work because of disparate roots, all the while calling people against UK union with Europe on that basis bigots.
    Yes, and that is simple logic - but apparently still too complicated for you Leave voters.

    European countries => Diverse cultures with underlying shared values => an integated union can and does work
    European countries + China/India/etc. => an integrated union cannot work

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Your also assuming there is a great commonality in European cultural and political instincts and British ones, historically or in modern day UK, and I and many leave voters do not unquestioningly accept this and look at our links around the world. We are as different from the mainland as Greece is from Turkey. We have more in common with the anglosphere, judged by the very 'underlying' conditions you are describing.
    Yes, I am assuming that because it is a FACT. What you blather on above is the common narrative xenophobic nationalists like you tell in order to create a pseudo-distinction between Britain and Europe, to elevate Britain from Europe. A disgustingly populist and very dangerous ideology - no wonder extreme right wing parties thrive in your country.

    Boy, you're just another European country - and a pretty insignificant one at that. Overseas you are perceived as nothing else than European, as the article in my original post highlights.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Regardless, we all know the logical conclusion to your arguments is global governance.
    No. The logical conclusion is that inclusive, solidary unions with binding rules can and do work.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You've backtracked. You have smugly and incuriously insulted leave voters intelligence en masse, showing your indoctrinated, authoritarian, blind to objectivity, true colours. It's typical remain. You have called me bigoted from the start, knowing absolutely nothing about my motives. This is what caused more people to vote leave, despite the many that were hectored into by the utterly shameful and desperate 'racist' charge. I didn't make a case based on that, I made it on sovereignty and democracy, and a rejection of corporatism, globalism and authoritarianism, and a rejection of all the absurd charges you remainers made.
    Where have I backtracked? I said from the start that Leave voters are either xenophobic nationalists or un-/misinformed. You are continuously meandering between these groups, losing respect and credibility with every post - you have indeed been trying to make a case based around topics of sovereignty, democracy, rejection of corporatism, globalism and authoritarianism, but your arguments range from being heavily flawed to utterly ridiculous to exposing strong xenophobia, covering both camps.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We have a more successful non ethnic and multi-religious identity than any country in Europe. Too high levels of immigration threaten this cohesion.
    That is a clear contradiction. If you are so successful at integrating foreigners into your society, why can't you take in more? Germany has just absorbed ONE MILLION people who don't even speak the language, yet you ***** about a few hundred thousand economic and political refugees who are ready to work in your country to do the work that the thick white Brits are not willing to do? What a joke.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Wwhen you talk of Islam, I'm not PC. Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, Catholics, Protestants have all gotten along well in the UK. We do, whether you hate it or not, have the most mixed marriages in the world in London, and have the most religous diversity, all under a patriotic Britishness.
    Whether I hate it or not? Hey, I am not the xenophobe here, you are!

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Recent mass Muslim migration is not the same thing and threatens this, and I suspect some of the hatred you direct at me is projection because of Merkels decisions and your feelings about them. To suggest concern over Islam is racist is deeply disingenuous, and the left use this opportunistically and self-servingly. It is a special case of a militant, authoritarian and brutal religion which many people who value our tolerant liberal society are concerned about, because it posits a real threat to our way of life.
    Again, utter *******s and highly contradictory. If you have absorbed a much higher number of people following this 'militant, authoritarian and brutal religion' before, you should be able to do it again, especially with the more tolerant and inclusive society you claim to have built.

    Oh, and I don't direct any hatred at you. I am not one to hate. It's really a mixture of disgust and pity. You're just an uneducated xenophobe -and islamophobe, as it turns out- and need some schooling.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Democratic footing? Look at how policy is made, look what happened with Lisbon, and the Irish and the French Look at the way the British were deceived in the 70's. Look at what was imposed upon the Greeks.
    I do know how policy is made, but do you? It is made in a democratic manner. The British weren't deceived, they were -and are- just poor negotiators.
    The EU bailed out one of its members and, in compliance with the rules EVERY member state signed up to, imposed guidelines. And guess what - it worked. Greece has survived.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”

    Jean Monet, EU founder.
    Countries have no significant democracy, when they have a single currency, no economic sovereignty, when there is a plan for a single army and foreign policy, and a single tax policy. They will have no significant identity if further homogenization, the like of TTIP, so enthusiastically embraced by the entire Euro-establishment go through, allowing US corporates untold power in their countries.
    Please make the effort of spelling the man's name right.

    I -and everyone who matters in Brussels and beyond- disagree. How does a powerful and convenient single currency take away from democracy? Utter nonsense. It might take away from fiscal leeway, but its benefits more than make up for that. EU members will NEVER lose their economic sovereignty, but an aligned policy is for the benefit of all, as would a single army and harmonised foreign policy be.

    It's probably only the undereducated and misinformed British public but the vast majority of EU citizens do understand 'what is happening' and vote in the EU elections, unlike Brits.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    As Daniel Hannan says, if you want to know why people are so angry in the first place, along with being mindlessly, baselessly, self-righteously smeared as racists by insufferable people.....there it is.
    No, it really is the xenophobia, along with lack of education and information, or blind nationalism built on a foundation of a sense of superiority or 'specialness' - rings a bell? Oh yeah, the perfect description of Britain in 2016.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You're not anything like as intelligent as you believe yourself to be.
    I am pretty sure I am. My academic merits, professional success, and intellectual dominance of poor excuses for a troll like you.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    I will await Germany's fall with amusement.
    Awaiting really is the right word, because you'll have to wait a very long time. Britain, isolated, weak, will crumble long before that happens.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You are an mug and a ****.
    Yeah, if I were you I'd resort to personal insults as well. It's all you have left now.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The idea that it is stupid to not speak a language of a country that you will never ever live in, whilst English is the global language,(and whilst Europe is now full of snotty little pricks hating the UK like you) and whilst North America, China and India are all more important than Europe, is a joke.
    English is useful, no doubt. However... http://www.politico.eu/article/engli...it-senior-mep/

    But the fact that you do not see the linguistic and cultural enrichment that learning a foreign language and conversing with native speakers abroad bring to your life - says all about the width of your intellectual and cultural horizon.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Not speaking German, to go and hang out with my 'European brothers and sisters' when I can go to the USA, Canada, Australia, or, you know just live in the country I love. I think my future is destroyed, better get that second referendum, or I might not be able to take the pain of the separation.
    Not destroyed, but a whole lot less interesting and fulfilling.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    'No-one cares about the UK' you've said that quite a lot. What did you do, go around as a German, asking if people there could speak English, and if they cared about the UK? That sounds plausible....

    And for someone who doesn't care about the UK, you seem to be extremely vitriolic about it's exit from the EU. Surely the exit of an insignificant country would not trouble you, you know like Iceland's non-membership? Oh wait.....
    Most Germans, even those without a degree, do speak English pretty decently these days, and learn other foreign languages for enjoyment and enrichment.
    Even though I live abroad I followed the German media coverage of the referendum and its outcome very closely. Like myself, most people don't seem to care about Britain leaving - you lot have been *****ing and whining and slowly leaving the EU since Thatcher; the referendum was really a chance to re-enter Europe rather than to leave it. What gets to us, and the reason I am still entertaining this thread, is (1) the ridiculous and disgusting propaganda that has been spread about the EU and (2) the fact that a country leaves this union of solidarity over such lowly motives as xenophobia and finances

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The EU's not going to crumble.....keep telling yourself that.......positive thinking.........you'll get there
    No positive thinking needed, the evidence is out there.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Ah yes, so when there is history, economics, philosophy, mathematics, science, the arts and English is the global language, plus Europe is a small portion of the world, and when there is the entire anglosphere and commonwealth out there which Brits are curious about, despite your protestations, the only way to show your wide horizons is to know a European language which is useless in studying all of the above.
    It's not the only way, but a very good and popular one, and surely easier (and cheaper and safer) than traveling overseas all the time. As if loads of Brits went to India or South Africa all the time when they can just get hammered in Sahagluf and make the British the most despised in Europe...

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    When are you going to grasp the fact, as a German from what (besides Turks) is one of the biggest monocultures out there, up until this day, that Britain is not monocultural.
    You really believe that? More received wisdom from the Daily Mail? Have you ever even been to Germany? Or abroad, for that matter?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We are already multicultural, with dual identities, Carribean British, Indian British. We are linked by language and heritage to other parts of the world.
    It is quite understandable that many British people do not want another layer of identity on top of this.
    By heritage you mean colonization and exploitation, right?

    Yeah, 'many British people' are uneducated xenophobes who believe that one wave of immigration was totally enough and that any new arrivals could never ever reach the level of integration that people from the Commonwealth, whose home countries really have nothing in common with Britain apart from forced doctrine during colonial times.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You accuse Britain of being monocultural for rejecting union, because you project and see us through the lens of your own monocultural smug country, even though it flies in the face of all evidence and all comparison to Europe.
    The evidence is that Britain has rejected a union with its European brothers and sisters with whom it shares more values and hundreds of years of additional history over anyone from its colonies.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Britain's have an Indian food as their national dish. We eat Caribbean, and Chinese, we have Divali and Hannukah and Asian network, and every musical influence. We have Brick lane, Chinatowns all over the UK. There is diversity and distinct Britishness at once, right in the middle of nowhere in a small town. try finding that in Europe. We have more mixed race children and marriage than anywhere.
    Yet extreme right-wing parties thrive, racial inequality is still rampant, racial violence has spiked since the Brexit - and the whole Leave campaign was ran on a basis of fear-mongering about immigration. Funny, isn't it?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    There are Europeans who are deeply provincial, just because they support the EU says nothing.
    It says everything, ESPECIALLY if they are provincial. They are ten times the proper European that a Brit is that voted Leave so the money goes into the NHS and the immigrants stay out.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    There are extremely provincial attitudes and places all across France, Germany, Italy where only he local food and culture is seen for miles. There are extraordinarily smug mono- cultural supremacists who often border on racial supremacy too. Why do you get to call the country that eats everything under the sun and racially mixes more than anywhere, and has more religions who are all happy to be here, bigoted?
    Because that oh-so-diverse country voted to break up a historic and beneficial union with the nations it shares the most with, which is unheard of and incredibly stupid.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We don't want political union with German dominated Europe.
    Even if the EU were dominated by Germany, you had years to change that. You didn't do that, be it for the lack of motivation or skill.

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    We DO have a more multi-religious(though nrightly worried over Islam), non-ethnic pride, like it or not. Deal with it.
    Positive thinking... keep telling yourself that... conceal the xenophobia and islamophobia...
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You haven't dominated anything.
    Oh, but it does seem like I am dominating you quite comprehensively here.

    Where did your points go?

    The one about mostly uneducated people voting Leave?
    The one about 99.5% of respected institutions, think-tanks and experts warning of a very negative impact of Brexit on Britain?
    The one about Britain having closer ties to continental Europe than any Commonwealth nation?

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Yes, you would have to study it because of it's significance, and the relative insignificance of European languages.
    It's pretty useful - not primarily for business, I could easily earn more money than you ever will working for a German company and only using German... but very useful indeed for exposing and embarrassing xenophobic, nationalist mouth-breathers like you!

    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    And many Brits have zero reason to learn European languages. This is exactly the point, and the fact that you put it down to stupidity and attempt to shame it just shows how in thrall to this pathetic EU-centric view of the world is, that literally want it's citizens indoctrinated into integration and shame them for their lack of an 'outward looking' tendency, which is bizarrely defined solely as learning EU languages and moving amongst EU countries. The shaming tactics, and ludicrous, baseless smears, only serve to show how emotional, irrational and genuinely propagandized so many remainers are.
    If you, as a Brit, think and say you have zero reasons to learn a foreign language, it is DEFINITELY down to stupidity (apart from being very, very uncultured and narrow-minded).
    The EU (apart from every sane parent and good school in the world) wanting people to learn foreign languages has nothing to do with indoctrination into integration - it has to do with building bridges, getting to know each other better, understanding each other, making use of free movement. But what would a confrontational, isolationist nation full of mono-linguists like Britain want with that?
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    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    If you look at solely the money in / money out to the EU, the UK has one of the worst deals.
    I see that. But you know, the European project is not only about money. Brits, as the most cynical people in Europe, don't seem to get that. We all share history. The EU is about growing stronger together, as a bloc, and this includes transfer of funds. If you have more, you give more.

    That being said...

    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    What does the EU really offer?

    1: Single market access
    2: Free movement of people (Now a doubled edged sword)

    At the cost of:
    1.No trade deals allowed outside the EU market.
    2.More devolved power to the EU.
    3. Endless stangnant beuaracracy of the lumbering EU where everything must be debated and agreed upon by all members.
    4. EU rules and regs tieing our hands over how we decide torun the country.
    5. A small but reasonable and increasing amount of money.
    We could argue over this for hours and add many points to both sides - but access to the single market alone outweighs all the negative points, to some of which I don't necessarily agree (no. 1, for example, is being weakened by the almost-ready deal with Canada, and TTIP).

    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    Not good enough I hear you say? OKAY! Not to worry, we'll simply go and talk to the EU about changes to....oh....they told us to get lost....
    You lost that game with your aggressive, entitled style of negotiations. The EU WAS listening, but you blew it.
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    Lets just hope May does the sensible thing and keeps us in the EU.
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    (Original post by JoshDawg)
    The issue with the EU was that everyone had the same voice. Matters that would have bad consequences for the UK but would be good for a few minor EU countries we would be outvoted on, despite being a main player.
    It's a game of trade-offs and compromises. Every big EU country has that problem. The UK just wasn't good at this, given its confrontational and aggressive demeanor in Brussels.

    (Original post by JoshDawg)
    I don't care if it takes 5, 10, 50 years, we'll make a success out of Brexit.
    I don't know how you define success, but I think you'll be lucky if you ever get back to the level of wealth that you have now.

    (Original post by JoshDawg)
    The EU is going downhill fast, and I'm glad we got off the sinking ship. So whilst you're sitting back saying "jumping from us will be a hard fall Britain" we'll be watching you frogs sitting in a pot of slowly boiling water, unaware of your inevitable fallout.
    The thing is though, it's not really going downhill. It's only been the British who have caused unrest and uncertainty, and now that you lot are out, we can regroup and drive the project forward. Greece has been saved, the southern countries are stable, and all remaining member states are committed to the European idea.

    (Original post by JoshDawg)
    P.S. Best thing for Germany is to get Merkel out of power, something that looks like it will happen in 2017.
    Actually, no.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    Du sollst wissen Deutschland wäre von anderen Europäischen Völker geliebt falls es wieder patriotisch sein wied.

    Das Welt braucht wieder ein Deutschland wie es zwischen 1871 und 1918 war.
    What a load of fascist, dangerous nonsense. Posting this in German so you don't get blocked by the moderators?
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    (Original post by slaven)
    The average German (I would say about 80% of Germans) hates its german indetity due to its Nazi past and holocaust. They were thought from early stages that they are basically evil people and that patriotism is something bad.
    Rubbish. We don't 'hate' our German identity, and we have never been taught that we are 'evil people'. Where do you get this stuff from?

    We have been carefully taught about what previous generations did and how it came to that.

    The fact that patriotism is bad was not taught, it's simple deduction. Patriotism leads to nationalists, nationalism leads to irrational, aggressive behaviour, and that leads to suffering or loss of welfare. It can be observed in any history book (not just related to Germany) and in many states all over the world right now.

    You really need to stop acting like you're an expert for Germany, you know nothing.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    I see that. But you know, the European project is not only about money. Brits, as the most cynical people in Europe, don't seem to get that. We all share history. The EU is about growing stronger together, as a bloc, and this includes transfer of funds. If you have more, you give more.

    That being said...



    We could argue over this for hours and add many points to both sides - but access to the single market alone outweighs all the negative points, to some of which I don't necessarily agree (no. 1, for example, is being weakened by the almost-ready deal with Canada, and TTIP).



    You lost that game with your aggressive, entitled style of negotiations. The EU WAS listening, but you blew it.
    Right yeah, so entitled we have to pay the second highest amount into the EU so we can be ignored. If the EU comission wants more money to fund their empowerment project they should have listened. The UK isn't interested in forming closer union and becoming more of a super state, because guess what, it's not part of continental europe. This has a social role too.

    I think there are about 4 countries that could actually say the UK are 'entitled', the rest should really keep quiet since they recieve net profits by investment from the EU. There are three BIG contributors to the EU:, Germany, UK and France, in that order. The UK and Germany are by FAR the largest contributors to the EU coffers. France is a way back in 3rd and Netherlands just behind them in 4th.

    Cameron walked away with pretty much nothing. No one was impressed. If he'd have come back with somthing solid, it didn't have to be amazing or even what we asked for, which wasen't actually a lot to start with then poeple would have been more interested.

    Clearly access to the single market doesn't outweight the negatives otherwise people wouldn't be willing to leave. The UK isn't the the most anti EU country out there either, there are several with higher anti-EU sentiment.
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    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    Right yeah, so entitled we have to pay the second highest amount into the EU so we can be ignored.
    I don't think you were 'ignored'. You bargained (in your usual aggressive, entitled, condescending style), and didn't get what you wanted. You have nobody to blame but yourselves.

    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    The UK isn't interested in forming closer union and becoming more of a super state, because guess what, it's not part of continental europe.
    It's still a European country, and signed up to the EU treaty, thereby buying into the vision of a more integrated Europe. The term 'super state' is Brexiteer propaganda, please don't use it if you want to be taken seriously.

    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    I think there are about 4 countries that could actually say the UK are 'entitled', the rest should really keep quiet since they recieve net profits by investment from the EU. There are three BIG contributors to the EU:, Germany, UK and France, in that order. The UK and Germany are by FAR the largest contributors to the EU coffers. France is a way back in 3rd and Netherlands just behind them in 4th.
    Anyone can call the UK entitled when it bargains for a special deal that it does not deserve according to the rules of the EU, easy.

    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    Cameron walked away with pretty much nothing. No one was impressed. If he'd have come back with somthing solid, it didn't have to be amazing or even what we asked for, which wasen't actually a lot to start with then poeple would have been more interested.
    Yeah, he and his team did a bad job, but so did previous administrations.

    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    Clearly access to the single market doesn't outweight the negatives otherwise people wouldn't be willing to leave.
    Ever considered that 'these people' (why not let's say Brits, because they're really the only people who want to/will leave) are acting highly irrational, motivated by ulterior motives, corrupted by propaganda (i.e. 350m per week straight to the NHS), and are simply making a mistake?

    (Original post by Pegasus2)
    The UK isn't the the most anti EU country out there either, there are several with higher anti-EU sentiment.
    Nonsense. Facts?
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Rubbish. We don't 'hate' our German identity, and we have never been taught that we are 'evil people'. Where do you get this stuff from?

    We have been carefully taught about what previous generations did and how it came to that.

    The fact that patriotism is bad was not taught, it's simple deduction. Patriotism leads to nationalists, nationalism leads to irrational, aggressive behaviour, and that leads to suffering or loss of welfare. It can be observed in any history book (not just related to Germany) and in many states all over the world right now.

    You really need to stop acting like you're an expert for Germany, you know nothing.
    Having spent some time in Germany, I will say that there is a very deeply ingrained sense of guilt; that much is more or less indisputable. I mean, the recent vote on the Armenian genocide says it all. I mean, holding the vote was absolutely deluded, Yes, it was genocide. Yes, everyone knows it was genocide. That vote did nothing to help change what happened; the only consequence it had was to fatally sully Germany's - and by proxy the EU's - relationship with Turkey, at a time when the EU required Turkey's assistance and cooperation more than ever. And yet they held the vote regardless, because of some baffling desire to exorcise their sins. It's absurd.

    Your logical reasoning there is laughable. A can lead to B, which can lead to C, which can lead to D. As D is bad, therefore A is always to be avoided. I mean, where are you getting this stuff?! By that logic, socialism should always be avoided because it can lead to communism, which can lead to anarchism, which is bad. And that ingrained dislike of patriotism is quite apparently a symptom of the aforementioned guilt complex.

    As for the rest of your comments, it's clear you have very little respect for anyone who has a difference of opinion. I voted to leave, for a whole host of reasons, and yet I can fully appreciate that there were reasons to vote remain. I can 100% respect someone's decision to vote the opposite way. Maybe something you should consider working at. When you come out with the sanctimonious ******** about how everyone disagrees with you is misguided/racist/idiotic, it just makes you look like a bigot. Which is ironic really, given as that's what you're trying to accuse everyone else of being.
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    Having spent some time in Germany, I will say that there is a very deeply ingrained sense of guilt; that much is more or less indisputable.
    I am very happy to dispute that. Having spent 30+ years in Germany, I believe I am better positioned to speak to that.
    There is some sense of guilt in my parents and definitely in my grandparents' generation, but to generalise and say there is a deeply ingrained sense of guilt is just wrong.
    People my age and younger are aware what our grandparents' and great-grandparents' generation did and how it came about, but we don't feel guilt. What we do feel is a strong conviction to not let it come to that ever again.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    I mean, the recent vote on the Armenian genocide says it all. I mean, holding the vote was absolutely deluded, Yes, it was genocide. Yes, everyone knows it was genocide. That vote did nothing to help change what happened; the only consequence it had was to fatally sully Germany's - and by proxy the EU's - relationship with Turkey, at a time when the EU required Turkey's assistance and cooperation more than ever. And yet they held the vote regardless, because of some baffling desire to exorcise their sins. It's absurd.
    So you are saying the vote should note have happened, and the genocide should have remained a contested issue? THAT is absurd. The vote was necessary, important, and right.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    Your logical reasoning there is laughable. A can lead to B, which can lead to C, which can lead to D. As D is bad, therefore A is always to be avoided. I mean, where are you getting this stuff?! By that logic, socialism should always be avoided because it can lead to communism, which can lead to anarchism, which is bad. And that ingrained dislike of patriotism is quite apparently a symptom of the aforementioned guilt complex.
    The key point you are missing is likelihood. Communism rarely leads to anarchism (especially these days), while nationalism very often leads to irrational, aggressive behaviour. Outcomes of nationalism are almost exclusively negative, those of communism are not.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    As for the rest of your comments, it's clear you have very little respect for anyone who has a difference of opinion. I voted to leave, for a whole host of reasons, and yet I can fully appreciate that there were reasons to vote remain. I can 100% respect someone's decision to vote the opposite way. Maybe something you should consider working at. When you come out with the sanctimonious ******** about how everyone disagrees with you is misguided/racist/idiotic, it just makes you look like a bigot. Which is ironic really, given as that's what you're trying to accuse everyone else of being.
    I have respect for people with different opinions if they can back them up with good arguments - especially on such an important issue as Brexit. Unfortunately, I have yet to see someone make a compelling case on that.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    I don't think you were 'ignored'. You bargained (in your usual aggressive, entitled, condescending style), and didn't get what you wanted. You have nobody to blame but yourselves.
    I'm not sure where you're going with this bit? Obviously the UK isn't really wanted in the EU, so judging by this statement I think it has made the right choice.

    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    It's still a European country, and signed up to the EU treaty, thereby buying into the vision of a more integrated Europe. The term 'super state' is Brexiteer propaganda, please don't use it if you want to be taken seriously.
    The EU does want more political union. In it's mission statment it mentions harmonization in a lot of areas. The EU does have control in certain areas about what member states can do and what legislation they can and cannot pass.

    We signed up to the EEC in 1969 and had a referendum in 1975. The EEC has changed beyond recognition in the 40 years since that time to become the EU. There was increasing dissillusion that the EU was not going in the right direction for quite a while and that's why a referrendum was held.

    Since we don't want to be part of a more integrated Europe, we should open negotiateion to try to fix the problem or leave. Oh guess what...

    You mention 'more integrated Europe' then deny the idea of a super state. EU integration is only one way and it won't end. Have powers, ceeded by nation states to the EU commission even been transfered back? Yes or No?

    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Anyone can call the UK entitled when it bargains for a special deal that it does not deserve according to the rules of the EU, easy.
    No they can't. They are not the ones paying into the system. If anyone is 'entitled' it's those that are reciving huge investment from the EU. I think recieving huge sums of money for nothing is the definition of entitlement.

    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Ever considered that 'these people' (why not let's say Brits, because they're really the only people who want to/will leave) are acting highly irrational, motivated by ulterior motives, corrupted by propaganda (i.e. 350m per week straight to the NHS), and are simply making a mistake?
    Nonsense. Facts?

    Ok ok, so apart from the fact there is a snowballs chance in hell of you being able to quantify your statement, let me disect this a little. You put forth the idea that that over half the electorate.....17million people.... are 'corrupted by propaganda' and 'highly irrational'.

    Do you realise how nuts that sounds?
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    I am very happy to dispute that. Having spent 30+ years in Germany, I believe I am better positioned to speak to that.
    There is some sense of guilt in my parents and definitely in my grandparents' generation, but to generalise and say there is a deeply ingrained sense of guilt is just wrong.
    People my age and younger are aware what our grandparents' and great-grandparents' generation did and how it came about, but we don't feel guilt. What we do feel is a strong conviction to not let it come to that ever again.
    Indeed so, and I speak only from my own personal experience of Germans and their culture. I would suggest that all right minded people from all countries feel a strong conviction never to see the likes of the Nazis resurface; the difference is that German people seem to be rather more fearful of it that anyone else. A common rebuttal to any anti-immigrant stance in Germany is an immediate comparison to neo-Nazis or fascism in general. This kind of knee jerk reaction speaks to a deeply ingrained, irrational guilt.

    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    So you are saying the vote should note have happened, and the genocide should have remained a contested issue? THAT is absurd. The vote was necessary, important, and right.
    The genocide wasn't a contested issue though; everyone bar the Turks agrees it was genocide. The vote may well be important and right in a wishy-washy principled way, but to claim it was necessary is blatantly untrue. What positive, practical outcome did it have? It didn't do anything to help the hundreds of thousands who died, it doesn't prevent or help prevent something like that happening again. The only actual, tangible outcome, was to stick two fingers up at Turkey.

    My point is that holding that vote when they did was lunacy. Just after asking Turkey to help with one of the biggest crises that the EU is facing, Germany decides to hold a vote whose only effect was to piss off the people they've just asked for help. It's inherently illogical, and that a nation would act in such a way again suggests a deeply ingrained guilt complex. They've knowingly acted in a way that will harm themselves, for no practical benefit; only the knowledge that they have confessed to their sins.

    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    The key point you are missing is likelihood. Communism rarely leads to anarchism (especially these days), while nationalism very often leads to irrational, aggressive behaviour. Outcomes of nationalism are almost exclusively negative, those of communism are not.
    Doesn't it? Name me some Communist states which haven't either descended into anarchism, descended into totalitarianism or stopped being communist. It's a pretty short list. And outcomes of communism are most certainly predominantly negative, hence why there are so few - in fact, pretty much no - successful communist states.

    You're also still missing the flaw in your logic. You seem to be assuming that patriotism all but inevitable leads to nationalism, which is just plain wrong. Supporting your nation at the Olympics is an example of patriotism, but is hardly aggressive. Patriotism is just a word for the shared identity you experience with people whom you share a nation. Its effect is largely positive, notwithstanding those who interpret it as a superiority of their own nation. But unless you can provide any evidence to suggest that patriotism inevitably leads to nationalism, your point is moot.

    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    I have respect for people with different opinions if they can back them up with good arguments - especially on such an important issue as Brexit. Unfortunately, I have yet to see someone make a compelling case on that.
    But you don't. You really really don't. You have assumed throughout that anyone who voted to leave must be motivated by racism/xenophobia or stupidity. There are plenty of economic, political, and foreign policy reasons to vote to leave, which are completely reasonable. Conflating those who disagree with the EU's immigration/foreign policy and racists, is probably the single biggest reason we voted leave at all.
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    A common rebuttal to any anti-immigrant stance in Germany is an immediate comparison to neo-Nazis or fascism in general. This kind of knee jerk reaction speaks to a deeply ingrained, irrational guilt.
    Except that this doesn't happen. Where do you see or hear this? Certainly not by our cabinet or any politician save from maybe the very far left. Is it possible that you just believe how the tabloids are portraying Germans?

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    The genocide wasn't a contested issue though; everyone bar the Turks agrees it was genocide. The vote may well be important and right in a wishy-washy principled way, but to claim it was necessary is blatantly untrue. What positive, practical outcome did it have? It didn't do anything to help the hundreds of thousands who died, it doesn't prevent or help prevent something like that happening again. The only actual, tangible outcome, was to stick two fingers up at Turkey.
    It sure was a contested issue until there was an official government resolution. Turkey's government or bodies like the EU or UN don't care about what 'everyone agrees' on - until there's a vote, it didn't exist. The vote was necessary and overdue, it shouldn't have been delayed another day.

    Actually it does help preventing that again (shows you don't get away with it), and it enables the descendants of survivors living in Germany to receive benefits and to sue the Turkish government.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    My point is that holding that vote when they did was lunacy. Just after asking Turkey to help with one of the biggest crises that the EU is facing, Germany decides to hold a vote whose only effect was to piss off the people they've just asked for help. It's inherently illogical, and that a nation would act in such a way again suggests a deeply ingrained guilt complex. They've knowingly acted in a way that will harm themselves, for no practical benefit; only the knowledge that they have confessed to their sins.
    The timing shows that he German government is not afraid to to the right thing whenever it is ready to be done. Someone has to stand up to Erdogan, you know - the UK sure isn't doing it...

    And the refugees inflow is the biggest crises the EU has faced so far? You must be joking. Shows how blown out of proportion this topic has been in the UK.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    Doesn't it? Name me some Communist states which haven't either descended into anarchism, descended into totalitarianism or stopped being communist. It's a pretty short list. And outcomes of communism are most certainly predominantly negative, hence why there are so few - in fact, pretty much no - successful communist states.
    Your chain of events was communism to anarchism, and the list for that is actually very, very short. But going back and changing your narrative is a lot more convenient than actually having a point, no?

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    You're also still missing the flaw in your logic. You seem to be assuming that patriotism all but inevitable leads to nationalism, which is just plain wrong.
    Except that I never said that.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    Supporting your nation at the Olympics is an example of patriotism, but is hardly aggressive.
    Have you been around British fans? It quite often descends into pure aggression. 'Supporting' your nation means implying, asserting, celebrating its superiority. This is dangerous, against the spirit of the Olympic Games (or any other major event) and to be rejected.

    I did not say that patriotism always leads to nationalism. It often does. And since there is no tangible benefit of patriotism -at least one that doesn't appeal to feelings of national superiority, as they like to be harboured by so many Brits- it is better to reject it given the potentially -and often tangibly- negative consequences.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    But you don't. You really really don't. You have assumed throughout that anyone who voted to leave must be motivated by racism/xenophobia or stupidity.
    Guess how I arrived at this conclusion? By listening to and speaking to hundreds of people, following media outlets from four countries on three continents very closely and with an open mind. However, that is all I saw: xenophobic nationalism and misinformation. So yeah, I really do do.

    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    There are plenty of economic, political, and foreign policy reasons to vote to leave, which are completely reasonable.
    Except that there are not. None of them is objective and rational, let alone guided by solidarity with the rest of Europe, all of them are informed by nationalist feelings or purely national interests. That may be reasonable to you, but it surely isn't in the bigger scheme of things.
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    I love the moralizing about Britain's colonial history. Germany has no moral questions to answer, clearly. Oh, and it's 'unheard of' to leave this regressive undemocratic institution, because Europe has become fear controlled, authoritarian and blackmailing, and the countries have become cowed. It's not unheard of for us to be independent, or most other world countries we have about 7 centuries of history as such. Oh and the more I see your sneering uppity attitude, the more glad I am we left. I couldn't care less about you. The fact that so many remainer are so insufferable and self-satisfied and patronising, not to mention indoctrinated, just makes me more and more delighted we left.

    The counter argument to anyone on this thread to the point about experts is such a glaringly obvious one I can't believe I have to even make it. Expertise and education says nothing about democracy, or who benefits from a decision. Now, if you come at this from the biased, emotive point of view of wanting membership, of course you will not accept this., If you're an unbiased observer you will. The very institutions that make the recommendations are counting on the status quo for their funding and existence. The megabanks and corporates love the EU because it consistently legislate in their favour in order to obliterate competition.
    If you were playing against poker and gambling expert would you take their advice on how to bet?

    The question of motive and conflicting interests isn't even addressed, this is so biased and disingenuous it's untrue.


    To say that Southern Europe benefits from the currency union is a delusion. I've already produced an independent nobel winning economist who rejects 'toxic' TTIP(every European country wanted it, bar France, who Obama sent a Swede to soften up), says the Eurozone is disastrous for Southern Europe, and backs Brexit. This is of course met with obtuseness.

    We couldn't even have a political party who wanted to implement a manifesto for nationalising of rail, because of EU law. Whatever you think of this policy, this is the extent to which the EU obliterate democracy. When taking cheap Labour for paying peanuts, another regressive policy, they even make sure there are no union members. So many remainers are so blindly in love with the EU they bother to find out nothing from the other side of the debate. They are just emotive.

    These points are laid out in more detail, by Tariq Ali (ah, been posted above). Explaining how this is all about the maintenance of the elites power.

    Of course, I'm well aware of the unbelievably smug and condescending response I will get, that'll be a surprise.

    Clearly there are many remainers in our own country who hate their own country, love being patronised and have no perspective on our history, the future, and most of the world have decided that the EU is a paradise and leaving it unconscionable. It is utterly insufferable to watch the propagandised and indoctrinated who have no perspective on history or the world respond to this with such self-satisfied condescension, whilst remaining utterly incurious about any counter arguments. I think it says a lot- they have never known anything else, and are taught bad, PC history.

    And it also speaks volumes about the weakness of their case, and it's emotive nature.
    If remainers didn't act as arrogantly they did towards us, considered both sides, came up with balanced arguments for in, then I would have been more inclined to listen and take them seriously and been open to credible arguments. Because that would show that maybe they had the hallmarks of an objectively viable case. The fact we are listening to such utterly emotional vehemence, sneering, lack of objectivity shout downs of the other side and attempts to hector and bully them says it all. Even the most convincing arguments to pressing issues don't have the degree of apocalyptic prediction nor unanimity as remain claim. That's what detracts from their claim to have monopolized credibility. Allied to the relative unenthusiasm of many remainers before the vote for the EU, and the doubtfulness over choice to enter and change the status quo if in the reverse predicament to many people, we are looking here are those who 'protesteth too much' en masse. More people than you realise have gone over to leave since all of this, the silent majority has grown.

    Oh and once again, we are an incompetent, ignorant, useless, irrelevant country with a hopeless economy. As you say, my 'European Brother'. So you shouldn't miss us too much. What's the problem?

    The fact is, that every time an empire crumbles or an established order knows it has lost it's credibility with the people, and lost it's power, it hits out with vehemence and vitriol. As now, are it's disciples.

    Very happy with the result.

    And keep claiming no-one in Europe is on our side, or that what we did was 'anti-European'.
    In fact it could have been more pro-European. What so many want is a homogenized, centrally controlled, globalised mish mash of Europe with TTIP and the rest, more easily controlled by the US and transatlanticist in nature, obliterating the economic sovereignty of nation states.

    We are looking at a growing silent majority, who are utterly sick of the smug, militant, authoritarian patronisers like Teuton, and who can't wait to reject the orthodoxy.
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    If you go on the web you see countless articles about Brexit voters who regret it and about one by a remain voter who says they wish they voted leave seeing remainers behaviour.

    This is laughable, another thing that just does not even have a hint of statistical feasibility.
    It is propagandizing, and once again it is not in tune with public opinion.

    You will see the exact same thing happen before the US election, I am telling you , and the exact same phenomenon with Corbyn's leadership of Labour. The media, banks, corporates and political class now have an unhealthily close relationship and are continually trying to control the narrative against the democratic will. The media is most culpable of all in it's encouragemnt of this, it is a dereliction of their duty to objectivity.

    But people just see through it and it isn't working.
 
 
 
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