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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Hey dude, no need to be upset. I'm sorry, that comment was ill-formed. I did English for A Level, and it's a beautiful subject (the ultimate expression of psychology, history and philosophy).

    I'm afraid having no experience of other degrees does nothing, however, to undermine my judgement of them. If everyone's opinion were only validated by first-hand experience, it would undermine most of human knowledge. History would be destroyed in one fell swoop, there would be no point using photographic evidence because you 'weren't really there' etc. It's like saying you can't possibly understand what Roman gladiatorial fights were like because you weren't in the audience, despite extensive literary evidence from the period to guide your understanding.

    The point I worded poorly in your quote was intended to refer to the complexity of the reasoning required. No conclusion in English, for example, is so precise as to require formal logic to set it out. This is just a fact. But I don't want to go into this, it's just irrelevant to the discussion. I try to big-up Philosophy, because people often ignore it, but I love the other humanities too, and I love what they can do for people. I'm sure you'll agree with that, at least.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    First of all, I'm not a dude and I'm also not upset.
    Secondly, a-level does not compare with degree level so whilst you may have appreciated the subject, you cannot use your a-level experience to judge an entire degree on.

    I don't require you to have first hand evidence, I specifically asked for you to provide evidence that you could base your opinion of the other degrees on given that you had no first hand experience of them yourself. You can ramble for days about how complex you find Philosophy to be, but without having any evidence to back up your argument that it is more complex than other degrees, you will never be taken seriously. Surely, as someone who has spent this thread focusing on how no other degrees require the same amount of reasoning, you would know that.

    Honestly, I can't comment on what an English essay conclusion would involve as I have zero experience in writing academic papers in English. I can, however, say that I find it almost laughable that you're trying to imply that Philosophy is the only degree out there that requires a high level of precision and logical reasoning. It simply isn't true. I'm sure it does involve a high degree of those things, yes, but any more so than any other degree? Who is to say? There doesn't appear to have been any studies showing evidence of which degrees require the highest levels of these things.

    Like I originally said, I could respect you more if you could convey your passion for Philosophy without trying to belittle degrees that you know nothing about and have made little effort to understand. Not only are all degrees different and far more complex than non-degree educated people will ever understand, but people have different goals and reasons for choosing their degree. They also have different skills. A Philosophy degree just quite simply wouldn't get me anywhere towards my goals. That isn't to say it isn't a good degree, but there were other degree options that suited me more. People often put Philosophy down because the majority of people go to university to directly increase their career prospects and they usually have some idea of what they want to do. While the transferable skills you have developed throughout your degree may be useful in a variety of careers, the jobs directly linked to your degree are relatively undesirable. Most people are turned off by this.
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    (Original post by GoingToBurst)
    First of all, I'm not a dude and I'm also not upset.
    Secondly, a-level does not compare with degree level so whilst you may have appreciated the subject, you cannot use your a-level experience to judge an entire degree on.

    I don't require you to have first hand evidence, I specifically asked for you to provide evidence that you could base your opinion of the other degrees on given that you had no first hand experience of them yourself. You can ramble for days about how complex you find Philosophy to be, but without having any evidence to back up your argument that it is more complex than other degrees, you will never be taken seriously. Surely, as someone who has spent this thread focusing on how no other degrees require the same amount of reasoning, you would know that.

    Honestly, I can't comment on what an English essay conclusion would involve as I have zero experience in writing academic papers in English. I can, however, say that I find it almost laughable that you're trying to imply that Philosophy is the only degree out there that requires a high level of precision and logical reasoning. It simply isn't true. I'm sure it does involve a high degree of those things, yes, but any more so than any other degree? Who is to say? There doesn't appear to have been any studies showing evidence of which degrees require the highest levels of these things.

    Like I originally said, I could respect you more if you could convey your passion for Philosophy without trying to belittle degrees that you know nothing about and have made little effort to understand. Not only are all degrees different and far more complex than non-degree educated people will ever understand, but people have different goals and reasons for choosing their degree. They also have different skills. A Philosophy degree just quite simply wouldn't get me anywhere towards my goals. That isn't to say it isn't a good degree, but there were other degree options that suited me more. People often put Philosophy down because the majority of people go to university to directly increase their career prospects and they usually have some idea of what they want to do. While the transferable skills you have developed throughout your degree may be useful in a variety of careers, the jobs directly linked to your degree are relatively undesirable. Most people are turned off by this.
    Alright,

    Firstly, if you read what I write, not once have I suggested Philosophy is the only degree requiring precision and logical reasoning. I mean, not once. If you want to be taken seriously, perhaps don't make things up. I've even said many times that Science is extremely challenging and important, and that I consider Physics and Philosophy the best degree. Why didn't you read that before having a go at me?

    As for job prospects, did you not read my opening post? There's a whole point addressing perceived job prospects. As I and others have pointed out, the jobs that are made acccessible by a Philosophy degree are many and varied, ranging from management consultancy to law, teaching to investment banking and marketing to computer programming. Again, I'm forced to ask, did you read any of this?

    I have said many times that other humanities are excellent also, as are sciences. I even said 'degrees are what you make of them'. Does this sound like belittling other degrees to you?

    My point about complexity of reasoning was that Philosophy requires the use of formal logic notation, which, in my opinion, is reason to believe it is elevated in this regard above subjects which do not, like English. Is this an objective measure? No. Does it make English any less valuable? No. Nothing I'm saying is especially controversial here.

    Source:
    http://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/b...19841346388353



    Also check out:
    http://www.naceweb.org/s02242016/top...ates-2016.aspx
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Alright,

    Firstly, if you read what I write, not once have I suggested Philosophy is the only degree requiring precision and logical reasoning. I mean, not once. If you want to be taken seriously, perhaps don't make things up. I've even said many times that Science is extremely challenging and important, and that I consider Physics and Philosophy the best degree. Why didn't you read that before having a go at me?

    As for job prospects, did you not read my opening post? There's a whole point addressing perceived job prospects. As I and others have pointed out, the jobs that are made acccessible by a Philosophy degree are many and varied, ranging from management consultancy to law, teaching to investment banking and marketing to computer programming. Again, I'm forced to ask, did you read any of this?

    I have said many times that other humanities are excellent also, as are sciences. I even said 'degrees are what you make of them'. Does this sound like belittling other degrees to you?

    My point about complexity of reasoning was that Philosophy requires the use of formal logic notation, which, in my opinion, is reason to believe it is elevated in this regard above subjects which do not, like English. Is this an objective measure? No. Does it make English any less valuable? No. Nothing I'm saying is especially controversial here.

    Source:
    http://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/b...19841346388353



    Also check out:
    http://www.naceweb.org/s02242016/top...ates-2016.aspx
    Great. So philosophy students are excellent at reading and writing about nonsense.
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    Great. So philosophy students are excellent at reading and writing about nonsense.
    Philosophy is a natural and beautiful activity, and it makes you a powerful thinker and operator, as these results show. I just hope you see that some time.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Philosophy is a natural and beautiful activity, and it makes you a powerful thinker and operator, as these results show. I just hope you see that some time.
    I have no doubt that philosophy helps expand your thinking, just no more than any other subject.
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    I have no doubt that philosophy helps expand your thinking, just no more than any other subject.
    Please read my original post - what parts are you unsure about?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Please read my originial post - what parts are you unsure about?
    I did read it way back when and understood it all. I maintain my stance.
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    I did read it way back when and understood it all. I maintain my stance.
    OK, so which parts are you unsure about?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    OK, so which parts are you unsure about?
    What part of my response confused you?
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    What part of my response confused you?
    Well, I explain at some length why Philosophy is arguably superior to many degrees in its ability to combine skills from both arts an humanities into one degree, and in the incredibly high level of analytical skill it produces in its students (if only I'd been doing it longer). It's a contradiction to accept these points and then say it's only as good as any other degree.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Well, I explain at some length why Philosophy is arguably superior to many degrees in its ability to combine skills from both arts an humanities into one degree, and in the incredibly high level of analytical skill it produces in its students (if only I'd been doing it longer). It's a contradiction to accept these points and then say it's only as good as any other degree.
    I never accepted those points as stated. I accepted them in so far that it provides no better analytical skills than any other degree.

    If you had studied a STEM subject then you could've better analysed my response.
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    I came here to find arguing and name calling but all I found is actual discussion and graphs
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    (Original post by lucabrasi98)
    I came here to find arguing and name calling but all I found is actual discussion and graphs
    Haha I'm going to take that as a compliment!!
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    if they’re a STEM Nazi
    Heil Newton! Stormtrooper stepping up.

    1) In terms of skill in logical thought and precision, Philosophy matches any science or quantitative subject. Formal Logic notation is notorious for its complexity, and on Oxford’s website, in the description of the Logic unit, it warns that even students who took Further Maths A Level ‘will struggle’.
    Agreed. Formal logic is basically maths. So your conclusion is that maths is a very hard and rigorous subject (especially at Oxford).

    2) At the same time, it hones writing, argumentative and analytical skills to the same extent as any other humanities subject, like History or English Literature. Hence combining the best aspects of the arts with the sciences.
    Many subjects do this.

    3) It involves the study of, quite simply, the greatest minds to have ever walked the Earth.
    Not a single scientist in your list? Many scientists are a cut above those you list. Are you an anti-STEM nazi. :P

    4) Philosophy is the original and oldest subject. There’s a reason Newton named his work ‘Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy’. Science (formerly Natural Philosophy) is a child of Philosophy, and simply cannot function without it.
    You're playing semantics again. "Science is great, science (and maths) used to be called philosophy, therefore philosophy is great". So why bother doing all the stuff philosophy students do and just do science or maths instead?

    Every day, budding young scientists carry out their investigations, all the while oblivious to the fact that they rely on the work of philosophers like Thomas Kuhn, Karl Popper and Francis Bacon to do so.
    The idea of falsification is very important but pretty easy to get. Please tell me what else scientists wouldn't be able to do without these philosophers? Also, I believe great science was done long before these people were born.

    5) Employers know that the soft skills many science students lack can be found in a Philosophy student.
    That must be why philosophy is so employable.

    6) Philosophy has shaped our world more than any other subject.
    Semantic trickery on a David Copperfield scale! Antibiotics weren't really created by science, it was philosophy. It isn't engineering that created aeroplanes and nuclear energy, it was philosophy. If you define your subject so broadly it becomes meaningless.

    I'm not actually against philosophy. I think all scientists and humanities students would benefit from formal training at university. It should just be a minor component of their course. I think of philosophy like seasoning in a meal. A little bit can transform the ordinary into something special. But science (or whatever) is still the meat. To do a whole cookery course on seasoning alone would be bizarre.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    When you tell someone you’re taking Philosophy, you often get the impression the person you’re talking to (especially, it must be said, if they’re a STEM Nazi) doesn’t know what the subject actually is, and assumes it’s just sitting (mainly in the reclined position) considering the meaning of stuff in a whimsical way. Oh the ignorance. So I’ve decided to give some reasons why Philosophy should be (and is, by employers and those who know), considered one of the most prestigious, challenging and rewarding subjects out there (yes, right up there with medicine, physics, law and maths):

    1) In terms of skill in logical thought and precision, Philosophy matches any science or quantitative subject. Formal Logic notation is notorious for its complexity, and on Oxford’s website, in the description of the Logic unit, it warns that even students who took Further Maths A Level ‘will struggle’.

    2) At the same time, it hones writing, argumentative and analytical skills to the same extent as any other humanities subject, like History or English Literature. Hence combining the best aspects of the arts with the sciences.

    3) It involves the study of, quite simply, the greatest minds to have ever walked the Earth. While Geography students are off learning about rates of coastal erosion on the Norfolk coastline, you’re learning about the intricacies of the work of Aristotle, Plato, Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Descartes, Nietzsche, Sartre, Hume, Socrates, Machiavelli, Aquinas, Augustine, Voltaire, Kant, Camus, Russell, Mill, Epicurus, Confucius and so many more. Philosophy's scope means it's near impossible not to find deep interest somewhere.

    4) Philosophy is the original and oldest subject. There’s a reason Newton named his work ‘Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy’. Science (formerly Natural Philosophy) is a child of Philosophy, and simply cannot function without it. Every day, budding young scientists carry out their investigations, all the while oblivious to the fact that they rely on the work of philosophers like Thomas Kuhn, Karl Popper and Francis Bacon to do so.

    5) Employers know that the soft skills many science students lack can be found in a Philosophy student. The subject is best done as a verbal process or through structured verbal argument, thus perfecting your communication, debating and verbal reasoning skills. Spend time studying syllogisms and analytic philosophy and, in all likelihood, you will be the most ferocious debater for miles around. If you want, training in philosophical reasoning can allow you to dominate your philosophically illiterate opponents (which, sadly, will be most of them).

    6) Philosophy has shaped our world more than any other subject. From every war begun in the name of a particular philosophy of religion, to every revolution caused by a philosophy of politics, to every scientific invention born of philosophy of science, Philosophy is there, in the background, always.

    Thanks for reading this; I’d be happy to have a discussion below. I leave you with my personal favourite Plato quotation:

    “There will be no end to the troubles of states, or of humanity itself, till philosophers become kings in this world, or till those we now call kings and rulers really and truly become philosophers, and political power and philosophy thus come into the same hands”.

    Here are some statistics from the USA for those people hardest to persuade:

    Source:
    http://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/b...19841346388353



    totally agree with everything you said there. Philosophy is totally awesome and totally matters. Ancient greeks used to hire philosophers to run the country (give advice I mean). I love philosophy. Especially philosophy of language and political philosophy.
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    (Original post by lucabrasi98)
    I came here to find arguing and name calling but all I found is actual discussion and graphs
    That bit in bold is a complete lie. Or are you just thick. It's shocking you are the result of our education system.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    There. Feel better.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Here are some statistics from the USA for those people hardest to persuade:
    Do you learn about correlation and causation in philosophy?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Hey dude, thanks for the post,
    On the one hand you say philosophy was a 'stepping stone' to true empiricism, and on the other you say science isn't dependent on philosophy. This seems like a contradiction, since, by your own admission, empirical science wouldn't have been reached without philosophy. If something cannot exist without another thing, it is reliant upon that other thing having existed.
    Posted from TSR Mobile
    That's my whole point though. In the past philosophy and science were a lot closer tied, and you can argue the existence of science today might depend on philosophy, but it is untrue to say that the subject as it stands today depends on philosophy. A child is dependent on their parents until they leave the house and then no longer.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Do you learn about correlation and causation in philosophy?
    Of course. The website it's from actually addresses this:

    'Also, correlation does not necessarily indicate causation. Just because physics majors perform extremely well on this exam doesn't necessarily imply that their physics education is entirely the cause. It's possible that physics departments attract some of the best high school students, and these students would have performed well on the GRE regardless of their major in college.

    Nonetheless, I suspect that undergraduate majors can play a significant role in determining a student's success on the GREs. Philosophy departments focus heavily on logical reasoning and identifying logical fallacies, most likely leading to philosophy students' dominance of the verbal and analytical writing sections.'

    I can find similar stats for post-qualification if you'd prefer.
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    Spoiler:
    Show
    There. Feel better.
    Much better. An accusation of false information despite providing no credible proof yourself. Then topping it off with an un needed insult at the end.

    Now that's the TSR I know!
 
 
 
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