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British woman stabbed to death by knifeman ‘chanting Allahu Akbar’ Watch

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    (Original post by QE2)
    But they haven't ditched it, because they still insist that the Quran is infallible and immutable.

    And don't bring up the tired old "but 1.6 billion Muslims don't behead disbelievers", because the Quran doesn't command all Muslims to do that. It just permits killing those who refuse to submit to Islam (amonst other things), and many Muslims claim that this only applies in the context of an Islamic state in conflict, under orders from its rulers (which is exactly what ISIS and its followers are doing).

    Have you been on ISOC yet and asked them if the Quran if infallible and immutable yet? I predict over 90% will say yes.
    QE2 raises the important questions

    in Islam, there are subtle distinctions and definitions with regard to jihad, to how non-Muslims should be treated, the rules for warfare etc etc

    there is offensive jihad and defensive jihad, it can be an obligation for all individual Muslims (fard al-ayn) or just a collective obligation for the people living in some region (fard al- kifayah). There are specifications for how a legitimate jihad is declared, then there are specific rules for who can be targeted/attacked/killed/captured, with a huge tradition of debates, rules and exceptions

    what movements like Al-Qaida and ISIS have done, is to develop and popularise the most violent and extensive definitions of jihad, which are however present in Islamic tradition

    as said, it is a complex matter . A good introduction, in my view, is here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Salafi-Jiha...alafi+jihadism

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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    If they feel the need to justify their "political" aims through the Quran then they are bringing religion into it. Glad we established that because a few pages ago you were saying the opposite.
    Wait a minute sweetie, isn't that part of Sharia Law though? And isn't that a part of religion.

    I'm sorry but no that's total BS. Where's your evidence to show that losing family leads you to become radicalised very easily? Genuine question, why should non believers like me help an ideology that openly says non Muslims go to hell?

    I hate to break it to you but criticising things is a sign you can think for yourself. And since you blindly say the same thing over and over again, it speaks volumes of how you think.
    The evidence of traumatic events in peoples' lives leading to radicalisation is blatant to anyone who skims over case studies of Islamic terrorists. Family loss is just an example, but someone's life being turned upside down generates negative feelings, these negative feelings mean that they become sympathetic towards groups like ISIS - who provide a legitimate voice for any hateful Muslims in the world. An example of this is the Tunisian beach attacker, he was radicalised because his life was turned upside down during the Libyan civil war, prior to this he reportedly (according to his girlfriend) liked to drink, smoke and breakdance.

    Political unrest and traumatic events in peoples' lives radicalises these individuals, not a heart-filled desire to help Islam. Almost every single terror attack on the west has been done in response to a political stance of the country - such as the Bataclan attackers who vocally spoke out against France's airstrikes in Syria and its role in crushing Islamic State. The ONLY one where I can think of the motive being purely religious is the Kouachi brothers in Charlie Hebdo - but they did not kill anyone other than who they targeted, apart from one police officer. Its also note-worthy that both of these individuals were involved in petty crime, and were jailed for these actions, and then radicalised inside jail - so its quite obvious that them being imprisoned made them predisposed to negative influence from a radical preacher who they met in prison.

    As for your concerns about a religion saying non-believers go to hell, the same is said by many other religions. The fact is, almost no Muslims nowadays readily accept, embrace and act upon the barbarism of the Quran. Furthermore its also worth pointing out that criticising Sharia Law is vague and meaningless, it is interpreted very differently, whether practiced in government or practiced under militant regimes such as in al-Raqqah.

    If there is a human choice of rejecting or embracing Islamic values in the Quran, then the problem is with the people who readily accept the hateful parts and ignore the peaceful ones, just as ISIS do. Some people confusingly say that ISIS follow the Quran to the word, they don't, they cherry pick the violent parts to suit their political aims and oppression in Syria and Iraq. If someone can readily choose what to follow from the Quran, the problem is the hateful people who are clearly not living among the 1.6 billion Muslims who have adapted their values to a modern world, or the millions in western society who live perfectly fruitful lives without conflicting their religious beliefs with our own laws.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    He secretly loves me. I'm just too dazzling
    Maybe that's why he has an obsession with your ex :holmes:
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    the fact that stabbing one person isn't terrorism
    it seems that you have your own definition of terrorism

    how many persons do you have to kill in order to qualify as a fully-fledged terrorist ? 2 ? 5 ? a dozen ? 23.7 ?

    in reality, it's the intention that counts. And you still are not explaining why you are jumping to Islamoapologetic conclusions, before more information about the murder is known

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    it seems that you have your own definition of terrorism

    how many persons do you have to kill in order to qualify as a fully-fledged terrorist ? 2 ? 5 ? a dozen ? 23.7 ?

    in reality, it's the intention that counts. And you still are not explaining why you are jumping to Islamoapologetic conclusions, before more information about the murder is known

    best
    It's not about the number of people killed, its about wanting to enforce political aims as a result of invoking violence to people or property. Its clear that stabbing a random person isn't trying to accomplish this, otherwise they would have vocalised their intentions, or the investigation thus far would have found a link to Islamic terrorism or a terrorist group.

    And constantly whinging about me being an "Islamoapologetic" is not an argument, nor does it reinforce your pre-existing argument.
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    (Original post by iamaslostasyou)
    People tend to fixate on the violent verses in the Qur'an but how about peaceful ones for a change?

    'And verily mankind is a brotherhood, so make peace with your brethren.' Qur'an 49:10
    'Whosoever killed a person, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind.' 5:55

    The Islam that my parents have taught me,
    Unfortunately, they didn't give you the full story. The way you misquote and use verses out of context show that you fer taught a cherry-picked, sanitised version (unless you are being deliberately dishonest about those verses).

    Verse 49:10 actually says that "The believers are a brotherhood...", not "mankind".
    Most passages that talk about conciliation, respect, peace, etc only apply to those who submit to Islam, either as believers or as dhimmis, when you study them in context.

    Verse 5:32 (not 55) actually says that if a person kills someone unless as a punishment for murder or fasad...
    "Fasad" is a vague term that covers everything from treason and sedition to "disobeying god's laws" (from Ibn Kathir).
    Moreover, the next verse (5:33) explains that the punishment for opposing Islam is death and torture.

    Obviously, it is a good thing that people are only being taught the peaceful parts, but the violent, oppressive, discriminatory parts are still there, and if you claim that the Quran is perfect and unchangeable, then you are giving legitimacy to those Muslims who choose to accept the violent bits as well.

    And if you want proof of Muslims being persecuted just look at what happened/is happening in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine.
    The persecution of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan is being done by other Muslims of different sects, and the lot of the Palestinian people would be far better if Hamas stopped using them as a tool in their war with Israel. Israeli Arab Muslims (17% of the population of Israel) are not persecuted and are afforded the same civil rights as Israeli Jews.

    It upsets me to see a divide forming between people who would actually agree that non-violence is the better way to live, but unfortunately and ironically, a larger and larger amount of people are in fact beginning to agree with the Islamic radicals themselves that Islam is a violent and war-like religion - when this is not the case most of the time.
    Islam is a religion of peace and violence, of equality and discrimination, of tolerance and intolerance.
    Simply ignoring one side of the equation will not selp in solving it.
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    (Original post by MildredMalone)
    While I side with you in that particular argument, constantly calling someone "sweetie" makes you sound like a condescending Tumblr feminist
    It's an apt response to someone childishly banging out the same fallacious arguments.
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    Maybe the alleged attacker was shouting

    "A l'ouate bas"

    which in French means "down with wadding" ?

    :dontknow:
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Anders Breivik is one example several years back, the recent Munich shooting was another, the attempted Euro 2016 attacks which were thwarted is another, the attempted Rio 2016 Olympics attacks which were also stopped, arguably all of the shootings in the USA such as those done by Elliot Rodger, Chris Harper Mercer, Adam Lanza, etc - were all attacks intended on invoking terror.

    Furthermore we have this insightful report on how 'rightwing lone-wolves kill more people than Islamic terror' https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...thinktank-rusi

    Ignoring all this still, the CIA produced a report saying that between 1980 and 2005, Muslims only accounted for 6% of terrorist incidents.

    Are you going to respond to my evidence of alienating foreigners, which you tactically ignored? And pretend that my argument is crumbling by choosing what to respond to out of spite? I am curious if your poor academics are a source of your hatred for immigrants and/or Islam.
    You are such a liar!

    Just in a recent thread someone debunked this very claim of yours. These incidents include people acting against animal labs. That person then showed you the number of deaths from terror attacks.

    After that you were suspiciously silent. And now you bring the same twisted statistic again.

    You are such a liar man.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I'm really sorry I can't seem to find it, but Richard Dawkins liked a post on Facebook last week which had all of the statistical evidence needed to suggest that foreigners and migrants are a negligible source of our problems, I will link it as soon as I find it again.
    Any reasonable person knows this, but the effects of immigration on the economy/society is not what we are talking about. We are talking about Islam being a major contributary factor in Islamist attacks, which you deny. I think Dawkins would strongly disagree with you. His comment after Charlie Hebdo...
    "They shouted “We have avenged the Prophet Muhammad.” Some useful idiot will claim it had nothing to do with religion."
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You're going to need to be very specific, "as much damage as Muslim terrorists" could range from 2996 people being killed, to stabbing one person in the street. But Anders Breivik killed more people than the average Islamic terror attack kills. But there's no need for that anyway, because no other religions have ever been situated in a country or region with civil war and/or failed western foreign policy. There are reasons as to why Islamic extremism occurs and not others to nearly the same level, its because Islam is the only religion which has been at the centre of brutal regimes and conflict zones. I am completely sure that we would see Christian extremism if Christianity were majorly situated in Afghanistan, and had suffered the same failed foreign policy attempts and been under the same brutal regimes and been in equally deprived desert regions.

    Islamic extremism is prevalent because of the situation in the Middle East. We have terrorist groups which are thriving because of the chaos of this 5-way proxy war. Almost all terrorist groups which are Islamic have specific political goals. ISIS want to establish a caliphate of Muslims, Boko Haram want to destabilise the countries it is in, al-Shabab wants Somalia to become a fundamentalist Islamic state, and the list goes on.

    Terrorism arises from political unrest. You have to understand the reason as to why a terrorist group does extremism which derives arguably from the Quran.

    These terrorists justify achieving their political aims through parts of the Quran. They do not have a fundamental desire to save Islam or help it in the first place, their need to 'behead non-believers', kill gays, amputate criminals, etc.. it all suits their political aims, for which they use the Quran to justify their actions. These people don't wake up and suddenly want to help Islam, they are radicalised over time by a number of factors. If your country becomes a warzone, and you lose family - you become radicalised very easily. The same can apply for being religiously or racially discriminated - which is what people like you are doing to them. They never have a heart-filled desire to help Islam, they simply want to justify their hateful feelings, and sadly, groups like ISIS provide a legitimate voice for Muslims who have these hateful feelings.

    And you can pretend to be criticising the religion, but what so many people do nowadays is think that the right to criticise gives you the right to hate and discriminate - which is a part of the problem.
    Let me slap your own line of argumentation round your head:

    1. You say that by criticizing Islam, we alienate Muslims, increase cases of extremization and thus of terror attacks.

    2. But the exact flipside of that is Anders Breivik. He targeted people like you, SJWs and leftist, because they, like you, are for an open society, and against criticism of Muslims, etc.

    3. By your logic, they are themselves to blame, because by saying these things they alienated Breivik and ultimately caused him to go down this route.

    So, either you finally admit that your argumentation is complete nonsense, or you take back your example of Breivik.
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    This "not all Muslims are like this, these people aren't Muslims!!" shtick is getting so old. No other religions' members attack and kill in the name of God like Muslims do. There are scriptures about killing non-believers - no other religion teaches this. The religion and what's being taught is against morality. The fact that there are also peaceful scriptures means nothing - that's like someone saying about a serial killer "Yeah, he does very bad things... but for every person he kills, he also does some charity work, so all is fine!". No, it isn't.

    If Islam didn't teach bad things, its people wouldn't do bad things and there wouldn't be mass hatred toward Islam, and you can see why some people have no respect for those that follow such a backward religion (not saying that's my position personally as I see the person as an individual and not a religion, but I understand the thought process all the same).
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    I think it's high time we all invested in stab proof and bullet proof vests. Seriously. Clearly our government is too inept to do anything about these Islamic terrorists on our soil, we should start looking after ourselves
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    This "not all Muslims are like this, these people aren't Muslims!!" shtick is getting so old. No other religions' members attack and kill in the name of God like Muslims do. There are scriptures about killing non-believers - no other religion teaches this. The religion and what's being taught is against morality. The fact that there are also peaceful scriptures means nothing - that's like someone saying about a serial killer "Yeah, he does very bad things... but for every person he kills, he also does some charity work, so all is fine!". No, it isn't.

    If Islam didn't teach bad things, its people wouldn't do bad things and there wouldn't be mass hatred toward Islam, and you can see why some people have no respect for those that follow such a backward religion (not saying that's my position personally as I see the person as an individual and not a religion, but I understand the thought process all the same).
    No other religions have any prominent militant groups which legitimise terrorism and hateful feelings of their followers.

    This is because no other religions have been at the heart of political unrest and conflict zones or regions with brutal regimes.

    Its negligent to think that Islam is the only factor in this.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I'd say its equally likely that they are lone madmen high on drugs or mentally ill, and that they are actual terrorists or extremists, based on research on past incidents just like this
    So far, every case has turned out to be a Muslim acting, at least in part, on some sort of religious justification. I am not aware of a single case where the perpetrator of an Islamist attack, shouting "Allahu akbar" turned out to be a non-Muslim madman, high on drugs.

    If you are aware of any, please present them.
    Thanks
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Islam is the only religion which has been at the centre of brutal regimes
    //snort. Do you even history, bro??

    The Islamic centre of the universe complex once again... You are not the only people to suffer. You are not the only terrorists in the world. But right now the biggest threat to Western civilisation IS widely considered to be Islamic terror...
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    (Original post by otah007)
    Source please? Chapter and verse? As well as the name of the translator (I assume you're not reading it in the original Arabic). I'm sick and tired of people repeating the same bull over and over again without any evidence. Oh, and before you reply to this with the first thing that comes up in a Google search, I can already predict which verse you're going to pick and I've already got my 'out of context' answer ready.
    Ah.

    The age-old "the Quran must be read in context". Yes, the context where Mo was a violent warlord, trying to create an empire with the idea that enslaving people under a religion with him the prophet would be the best way of going about it.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    The evidence of traumatic events in peoples' lives leading to radicalisation is blatant to anyone who skims over case studies of Islamic terrorists. Family loss is just an example, but someone's life being turned upside down generates negative feelings, these negative feelings mean that they become sympathetic towards groups like ISIS - who provide a legitimate voice for any hateful Muslims in the world. An example of this is the Tunisian beach attacker, he was radicalised because his life was turned upside down during the Libyan civil war, prior to this he reportedly (according to his girlfriend) liked to drink, smoke and breakdance.

    Political unrest and traumatic events in peoples' lives radicalises these individuals, not a heart-filled desire to help Islam. Almost every single terror attack on the west has been done in response to a political stance of the country - such as the Bataclan attackers who vocally spoke out against France's airstrikes in Syria and its role in crushing Islamic State. The ONLY one where I can think of the motive being purely religious is the Kouachi brothers in Charlie Hebdo - but they did not kill anyone other than who they targeted, apart from one police officer. Its also note-worthy that both of these individuals were involved in petty crime, and were jailed for these actions, and then radicalised inside jail - so its quite obvious that them being imprisoned made them predisposed to negative influence from a radical preacher who they met in prison.

    As for your concerns about a religion saying non-believers go to hell, the same is said by many other religions. The fact is, almost no Muslims nowadays readily accept, embrace and act upon the barbarism of the Quran. Furthermore its also worth pointing out that criticising Sharia Law is vague and meaningless, it is interpreted very differently, whether practiced in government or practiced under militant regimes such as in al-Raqqah.

    If there is a human choice of rejecting or embracing Islamic values in the Quran, then the problem is with the people who readily accept the hateful parts and ignore the peaceful ones, just as ISIS do. Some people confusingly say that ISIS follow the Quran to the word, they don't, they cherry pick the violent parts to suit their political aims and oppression in Syria and Iraq. If someone can readily choose what to follow from the Quran, the problem is the hateful people who are clearly not living among the 1.6 billion Muslims who have adapted their values to a modern world, or the millions in western society who live perfectly fruitful lives without conflicting their religious beliefs with our own laws.
    Everyone on this planet loses family members for one reason or another but do we all become cleaver/ knife wielding maniacs? No. The problem is with Islam
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    //snort. Do you even history, bro??

    The Islamic centre of the universe complex once again... You are not the only people to suffer. You are not the only terrorists in the world. But right now the biggest threat to Western civilisation IS widely considered to be Islamic terror...
    I disagree, global warming is a far more existential threat to western civilisation. Islamic terror is brutal, harmful, and kills many of our citizens. But the worst ISIS attack on western soil only killed 130 people, that is a small number compared to the billions of us who are at risk because of climate change.
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    (Original post by MHI)
    So since it is a Muslim, it is terrorism and when it is a black man, it is a crime. How comes a white male can claim insanity?
    Obviously there are Islamic extremists that need to be stopped and this is an unfortunate crime, but this isn't an act of terrorism or South London would be the new Iraq.
    If a white Muslim shouted "Allahu akbar" before killing people, or a black Muslim, I'm sure that people would suspect an Islamist attack.
    Likewise, when Muslims commit crimes that do not have any Islamist connotations (the vast majority of Muslims in prison are there for common criminal offences), they are not called terrorists.

    I struggle to see where youre arguemnt comes from, or is going to.
 
 
 
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