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    This is no longer liberalism. This is oppression.
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    (Original post by lawyer3c)
    This is not a freedom I am aware of...

    We don't allow the adhan (Muslim call to prayer) or for Sharia law to govern relations of Muslim communities, so clearly we do not accept such a 'freedom' (and nor should we).
    I find this strange, the Adhan should be allowed since it causes no objective harm and so should the burkini. Laws should not be decided on the basis of societal tastes but whether or not harm is caused by the act. This type of thinking is what lead to homosexuality being banned.
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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    Would you expect Islamic countries to bend their social/cultural norms to accommodate Christianity or Westerners?
    No, because they are not tolerant countries like us in the West. That doesn't mean we should stoop to their level- we need to continue being a free country where people can wear what they want.
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    Seriously though... 😑
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    No, because they are not tolerant countries like us in the West. That doesn't mean we should stoop to their level- we need to continue being a free country where people can wear what they want.
    True, but it's the West's pathological altruism that has caused the friction between communities. Sticking with it may have dire consequences.
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    (Original post by The Sexathlete)
    I find this strange, the Adhan should be allowed since it causes no objective harm and so should the burkini. Laws should not be decided on the basis of societal tastes but whether or not harm is caused by the act. This type of thinking is what lead to homosexuality being banned.
    I was making the general point that we don't allow the unlimited expression of religious beliefs (and that this is preferable).

    I'm not sure what you mean by "objective harm" - even courts these days allow damages for certain types of psychological harm which are less easy to quantify (do money laundering laws, for example, cause "objective harm"?).
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    (Original post by lawyer3c)
    I was making the general point that we don't allow the unlimited expression of religious beliefs (and that this is preferable).
    In my opinion we should and the West shouldn't preemtively assume Muslim = terrorist, also it seems hypocritical to allow those bloody church bells and not the adhan


    (Original post by lawyer3c)
    I'm not sure what you mean by "objective harm" - even courts these days allow damages for certain types of psychological harm which are less easy to quantify (do money laundering laws, for example, cause "objective harm"?).
    Objective harm is the difference between killing someone and nonsensical hate speech laws. On the issue of money laundering, I think it should be completely legal provided the person laundering the money doesn't resort to illegal means to ensure payment.
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    you're right about London girls, we get hot blonde horse riding women but they're just so inbred, the hunter boots are cool tho
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    (Original post by Truths)
    This is no longer liberalism. This is oppression.
    To some extent, liberalism has to be opressive, just to defend itself.
    But this maybe indeed to far. There are more important problems to be dealt with.
    Postulating the Sharia for example, is against toleration, therefore freedom of speech should be limited in this area. This should be treated the same as propagation of nazism.

    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    If a Muslim woman lives in Britain, she should have her right to choose what she wants to wear respected.
    I would agree with that, only as long as there would be no public health insurance.
    Burka doesn't allow enough light to skin, causing D vitamin deficiency. It would be justified therefore to ban it, or to introduce a special health tax.

    (Original post by kiwi94)
    Here, Liberté Egalité Fraternité only applies when you're white ( and your parents aren't too poor).
    If thats the case, then why so many people of arabic and african origin are living out there?
    I personally think that being Polish in Poland is harder, than being anything in France, at least in terms of money.
    [/QUOTE]


    (Original post by SMEGGGY)

    Here Muslims are targetted, the more they push the more the fantics will be empowered. Carry on France and any other country....
    This will change nothing. Jihadist's mentality has no logic, and knows no facts, they only follow their own delusions, almost like a person with schizophrenia. Watch "Jihadist Next Door"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DsG9yQrdD4
    documentary- for these radicals even freedom is bad, and whatever they think Islam tells them is good. In their eyes everthing non-islamic is bad and has to be destroyed. Freedom, democracy, freedom of speech... they don't understand basic values of this rules, they don't understand that these values are best solution for any society, they believe that Islam (and the very their version) is the only and ultimate good solution.
    They only use our solutions to widespread their ideology in most hipocrityc manner. Same as protestants used to be in XVIth century, most of them wanted tolerance only in countries where they were persecuted minorities, and believed that persecutions are wrong only when those are against them, because they are right, and their opponent wrong.

    I can see only two possible, positive solutions:

    1. Everything will be sorted out through debates like in XVIth and XVIIth century, but their result as well, will be only accepted because of horrific casualties on both sides.
    2. Europe arrests and deports all muslims right now, and isolates from the Middle East. This sooner or later effects in regular world war. The "positive" possible solution is that the western world wins every war. (similar manner like Israel, but on far larger scale).
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    (Original post by The Sexathlete)
    In my opinion we should and the West shouldn't preemtively assume Muslim = terrorist, also it seems hypocritical to allow those bloody church bells and not the adhan
    Unlimited expression of one's religious beliefs could lead to FGM etc, which is what I had in mind.

    Tbh if the adhan was allowed that would just cause more anger and hatred and those worst affected would be muslims themselves so I'm not sure that's a good idea even from a muslim pov.

    Objective harm is the difference between killing someone and nonsensical hate speech laws. On the issue of money laundering, I think it should be completely legal provided the person laundering the money doesn't resort to illegal means to ensure payment.
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    you're right about London girls, we get hot blonde horse riding women but they're just so inbred, the hunter boots are cool tho
    that distinction has no logical basis and isn't upheld in our laws
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    To some extent, liberalism has to be opressive, just to defend itself.
    But this maybe indeed to far. There are more important problems to be dealt with.
    Postulating the Sharia for example, is against toleration, therefore freedom of speech should be limited in this area. This should be treated the same as propagation of nazism.



    I would agree with that, only as long as there would be no public health insurance.
    Burka doesn't allow enough light to skin, causing D vitamin deficiency. It would be justified therefore to ban it, or to introduce a special health tax.



    If thats the case, then why so many people of arabic and african origin are living out there?
    I personally think that being Polish in Poland is harder, than being anything in France, at least in terms of money.




    Because they were colonized,and France ruined almost the whole of Africa so after France made a mess and went home, guess who was left here to rot with shattered countries ? Africans. And after enrolling men by force in the WW2 and all the other wicked **** the French did,( such as drowning arab men in the Seine) it's only fair Africans came to France to find a job and feed their kids. Also, French people needed cheap immigrants to do their dirty work so they gladly accepted them. And yes I am quite sure that the situation in Poland is worse, I never said anything about that, and I'm not moving to Poland I'm moving to the UK so I don't really get the point.
    But it doesn't erase the fact that we are victim of daily racism here in France and people tell us to go back to our country, but it's France, and was actually France for my parents as well since they were born in " French Algeria".
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    (Original post by leinad2012)
    Or perhaps, their increasing needless aggression towards innocent Muslims is the reason WHY they have had the most attacks on their land and people in Europe.

    How the **** does banning what is effectively a wetsuit with a scarf having "balls"?
    "Aggression"
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    (Original post by kiwi94)
    these advantages don't matter to me when I'm being discriminated against for being an arab muslim. It's really difficult for me to find a flat to rent, even though I have good references and people who earn large amounts backed me up, but some landlords straight up told me " we don't like arabs" , I was also told by a teacher when I was 12 that I was a nasty thug arab girl from the ghetto ( couldn't be further from the truth, as I live in a nice neighbourhood, and my mom wouldn't let me go out of the neighbourhood on my own until I was 15, but clichés, you know?) I was also denied jobs because of my last name, when I had all the qualifications required and more , and my white friends who had no previous summer job experience whatsoever and did not have her own car were hired. It's also a proven fact that children from north african and black parents are discriminated against at school and for jobs, and many of them are emigrating to other countries of europe where they find jobs in their fields of studies very quickly and are treated with more respect.
    People always assume I live in a poor and deprived area just because I look arab. White french people grant themselves the right to ask me where do I come from and when I tell them the name of my birth city where I was born and raised and lived for 18 years of my life, they tell me " no but really ? you're not white so you're not from here" . My mom was verbally assaulted in the street last year by some ignorant fools who said t o her " you ****ing whore we'll kill you " why ? because she wears a hijab. I'm also harassed a lot in french airports, and while I can't prove it's because of the color of my skin or the origin of my last name, everyone I know tells me so, including white french people, so I'm not "imagining" things, you know. I could go on and on and on, but I'll just end with this : At age 4 , while in school, the son of a rich white family refused to sit near me and when the teacher asked why he said " my parents said arabs are bad people we should not sit next to them" and that 4 year old hitler also thought it useful to tell all the other white kids who to befriend : " you can't be friends with the black girl, because she is too dark skinned, but you can be just a little friendly with her ( me) , because she's dark but not as much as the black girl" . I rest my case .
    Don't think that everything bad that has happened to you is because you are Arab Muslim. I am French too and had to leave the country to find a real job because I didn't have the proper network; I was insulted as well (included by Arabs who said "dirty white") - some people are mean, that's a fact, and you'll find racists in every country; it was hard for me to find a place to live because landlords are obnoxious (I think they are worse in the UK), etc. But saying that France is a "*****y place" because you can't wear a burqa and a veil in class or on the beach is a gross exaggeration.
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    This is a total non story. France is a secular country. Muslim goes to beach knowing this and wears a burkini anyway. Obviously is made to comply with the policy. No **** Sherlock? Do you think we could go to Muslim countries and walk around in a bikini? I don't think so. If she doesn't like it she should live somewhere that isn't known to be secular...I have no sympathy for her*
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    (Original post by kiwi94)
    Because they were colonized,and France ruined almost the whole of Africa so after France made a mess and went home, guess who was left here to rot with shattered countries ? Africans. And after enrolling men by force in the WW2 and all the other wicked **** the French did,( such as drowning arab men in the Seine) it's only fair Africans came to France to find a job and feed their kids. Also, French people needed cheap immigrants to do their dirty work so they gladly accepted them. And yes I am quite sure that the situation in Poland is worse, I never said anything about that, and I'm not moving to Poland I'm moving to the UK so I don't really get the point.
    But it doesn't erase the fact that we are victim of daily racism here in France and people tell us to go back to our country, but it's France, and was actually France for my parents as well since they were born in " French Algeria".
    You previously claimed africans are massively discriminated against citing your own rejection from jobs etc then go on to say the above. So are the nasty white French exploiting you poor souls to do the crappy jobs or are they discriminating against you and giving the dirty work to the priviledged Native white frenchies? Which is it?

    How did your parents get good jobs to live in wealthy neighbourhood??

    With a victim mentality and paranoia like yours, im sure you will very quickly find many anecdotes to twist and concoct to fit your victim narrative here in the UK aswell
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    You previously claimed africans are massively discriminated against citing your own rejection from jobs etc then go on to say the above. So are the nasty white French exploiting you poor souls to do the crappy jobs or are they discriminating against you and giving the dirty work to the priviledged Native white frenchies? Which is it?

    How did your parents get good jobs to live in wealthy neighbourhood??

    With a victim mentality and paranoia like yours, im sure you will very quickly find many anecdotes to twist and concoct to fit your victim narrative here in the UK aswell
    you're twisting my words so not even gonna bother, but like I said, that's a good thing that french people gave them these jobs because at least they gave them something you know ? It will never be enough of course for all the damage they have done but still at the time it was something. And lmao I never said I lived in a wealthy neighbourhood. And also my parents aren't concerned by this as they were born during French Algeria so obtaining the french nationality was just a matter of them asking and filling a form and that was it, they didn't need to be granted " permission" to be there. And LOL what paranoia. please live a day in my life, you'll see how some french people look at me and you'll understand.
    Honestly you're really upsetting me because you make me out to be some kind of nut job whereas it's really simple to understand and that's something EVERYONE knows in France, even some racist people will tell you straight that arabs and blacks shouldn't be given good jobs and get into good schools etc, it's merely hidden tbh nowadays.


    but fiy , I lived in Ireland and I visited England and Scotland and I have never seen people that are more nice and friendly and helpful in my entire life, so stop pretending like I'm a whiny little *****. I talk from experience when I say how things were for me (and any arab/african person I ever talked to, like literally, I'm not lying, they all told me the same things happened to them ) in France, I have seen that other countries are so lovely compared to France and its twisted society and you can't say I'm wrong, you can't say to a whole community which has experienced discrimination that they haven't lol.
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    (Original post by kiwi94)
    Because they were colonized,and France ruined almost the whole of Africa so after France made a mess and went home, guess who was left here to rot with shattered countries ?
    The policial influency and creation of this synthetic states was bad indeed, but this also shows an african the lack of ability to get control over own land.


    (Original post by kiwi94)
    And after enrolling men by force in the WW2 and all the other wicked **** the French did,( such as drowning arab men in the Seine)
    This is indeed horrible, but this is a past. The Poles suffered something similar from Germans and we are not complaining about terrible living conditions in germany. A proper compensation for World War 2 and partitions of Poland would be nice, but I also have no doubt that 50% of such would be wasted by government, unless paid directly to families.

    (Original post by kiwi94)
    it's only fair Africans came to France to find a job and feed their kids.
    This is the first not proper argument. African economy was too primitive to be vulnerable to any significant harm. If someone really had to emigrate too feed children, it either means the one wanted too much to be achieved in Africa, was too lazy to work as a farmer, or had too many children.

    I can't afford kids, so I don't have any. I don't have a wife or a girfriend neither, so I don't have to go abroad to work in terrible job. I can play piano, read nooks repair my family house, and take part in debates on solving vital problems of our societies.

    (Original post by kiwi94)
    Also, French people needed cheap immigrants to do their dirty work so they gladly accepted them. And yes I am quite sure that the situation in Poland is worse, I never said anything about that, and I'm not moving to Poland I'm moving to the UK so I don't really get the point.
    The point is, that there is probably no country in the world, where an outlander will be fully accepted by everyone, exept from the opened part of medium class, and some left wing fanatics (ex leftist and current liberal speaking), and you can't achieve too much even in your own country, without money and connections. It is like that everywhere and always was. If you are poor, you can become eg. an engineer and advance to middle class, so your son can go higher, but nothing more and only if you work very, very hard, unless you have rare, extreme luck.
    Average Pole is rich, compared to average Ukrainian or Belarussian. If you are a good engineer, programmer for example, with 10 years of experience, you can earn 3-5 times more than an average Pole. And If you do, it means that you earn as much as cleaner or storage worker in Germany- a person with no education or experience.
    Your problem is that you want too much, and can't enjoy what you have. In Bhutan people are as poor as African and they concern themselves as happiest nation on Earth.

    (Original post by kiwi94)
    But it doesn't erase the fact that we are victim of daily racism here in France and people tell us to go back to our country, but it's France, and was actually France for my parents as well since they were born in " French Algeria".
    If I were rich, I would pay expences on concerts and promotion, become a music star and maybe multiple my money, by I'm not.
    Life is hard, and then you die. Get on with it.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    Don't think that everything bad that has happened to you is because you are Arab Muslim. I am French too and had to leave the country to find a real job because I didn't have the proper network; I was insulted as well (included by Arabs who said "dirty white" - some people are mean, that's a fact, and you'll find racists in every country; it was hard for me to find a place to live because landlords are obnoxious (I think they are worse in the UK), etc. But saying that France is a "*****y place" because you can't wear a burqa and a veil in class or on the beach is a gross exaggeration.
    I never said it was super easy and fluffy stuff for white people in France either, of course, if you come from money you'll get a job no questions asked, and that's not fair to other people who worked hard, but please, do not even try to compare your situation with mine. So many cases have been done to prove that with equal qualifications, the guy with a white sounding name will be chosen more , then the jewish one, and lastly the muslim. ( I don't have a link to it, it must be somewhere online though) , but yeah you're right, France doesn't stop with ethnicity and religion, they also did the same test with names such as " Charles" and then wrote the same cv with "Kevin" etc that kind of name and of course charles was chosen but not Kevin. I am not denying that it's absolutely true and really revolting, but please stop acting like I don't know what I'm talking about. When landlords tell you they won't give you the flat cause' you're an arab, you can't say they didn't not give me the flat because I'm an arab, right ?
    And plenty of stuff happened to me for other reasons, but I was listing some of the things that are 100% because of my ethnicity and religion so please don't tell me I'm wrong to be pissed about it.

    And I maintain that France is crap because it doesn't respect other people's liberties of wearing what they want etc, it's not even about the burkini or what, it's deeper than that, France has to control everything that is not seen as properly French. I very much doubt nuns would be asked to remove their veil thingy in the street.
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    (Original post by kiwi94)
    you're twisting my words so not even gonna bother, but like I said, that's a good thing that french people gave them these jobs because at least they gave them something you know ? It will never be enough of course for all the damage they have done but still at the time it was something. And lmao I never said I lived in a wealthy neighbourhood. And also my parents aren't concerned by this as they were born during French Algeria so obtaining the french nationality was just a matter of them asking and filling a form and that was it, they didn't need to be granted " permission" to be there. And LOL what paranoia. please live a day in my life, you'll see how some french people look at me and you'll understand.
    Honestly you're really upsetting me because you make me out to be some kind of nut job whereas it's really simple to understand and that's something EVERYONE knows in France, even some racist people will tell you straight that arabs and blacks shouldn't be given good jobs and get into good schools etc, it's merely hidden tbh nowadays.


    but fiy , I lived in Ireland and I visited England and Scotland and I have never seen people that are more nice and friendly and helpful in my entire life, so stop pretending like I'm a whiny little *****. I talk from experience when I say how things were for me (and any arab/african person I ever talked to, like literally, I'm not lying, they all told me the same things happened to them ) in France, I have seen that other countries are so lovely compared to France and its twisted society and you can't say I'm wrong, you can't say to a whole community which has experienced discrimination that they haven't lol.
    Cmon i am not twisting anything. You cite how France is rife with discrimination for jobs and renting property and then say France brings them there to do the nasty jobs. Your parents come from a non ghetto another thing you allude to.. so how did they afford that? Did they get decent job or a good opportunity in France?

    I have never lived in France and cannot say at what level discrimination is there but given the examples you are citing and anecdotes, i am not wholly convinced in your personal judgement.

    For example, i a white British male went through airport security and the scanner went off. 3 security people rushed over and moved me to the side barked at me to stand shoulder width apart and vigorously patted me down numerous times (Gave my schlong a good tickle too) demanding i empty my pockets etc. I was pretty taken a back by how annoyed / direct they were with me. Now if that happened to you... you would be 100% sure in no doubt that this was because you were muslim or Arab or African... The narrative would be racist ******** targeted me and violated me because i am muslim

    We have racist people here in the UK that will tell you similar things.
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    (Original post by PTMalewski)
    The policial influency and creation of this synthetic states was bad indeed, but this also shows an african the lack of ability to get control over own land.



    This is indeed horrible, but this is a past. The Poles suffered something similar from Germans and we are not complaining about terrible living conditions in germany. A proper compensation for World War 2 and partitions of Poland would be nice, but I also have no doubt that 50% of such would be wasted by government, unless paid directly to families.



    This is the first not proper argument. African economy was to primitive to be vulnerable to any significant harm. If someone really had to emigrate too feed children, it either means the one wanted too much to be achieved in Africa, was too lazy to work as a farmer, or had too many children.

    I can't afford kids, so I don't have any. I don't have a wife or a girfriend neither, so I don't have to go abroad to work in terrible job. I can play piano, read nooks repair my family house, and take part in debates on solving vital problems of our societies.



    The point is, that there is probably no country in the world, where an outlander will be fully accepted by everyone, exept from the opened part of medium class, and some left wing fanatics (ex leftist and current liberal speaking), and you can't achieve too much even in your own country, without money and connections. It is like that everywhere and always was. If you are poor, you can become eg. an engineer and advance to middle class, so your son can go higher, but nothing more and only if you work very, very hard, unless you have rare, extreme luck.
    Average Pole is rich, compared to average Ukrainian or Belarussian. If you are a good engineer, programmer for example, with 10 years of experience, you can earn 3-5 times more than an average Pole. And If you do, it means that you earn as much as cleaner or storage worker in Germany- a person with no education or experience.
    Your problem is that you want too much, and can't enjoy what you have. In Bhutan people are as poor as African and they concern themselves as happiest nation on Earth.



    If I were rich, I would pay expences on concerts and promotion, become a music star and maybe multiple my money, by I'm not.
    Life is hard, and then you die. Get on with it.
    Lol sorry not sorry for "wanting too much", sorry for not accepting to be treated badly, I'm super sorry again indeed, I didn't know why I expected that in the country that is considered of men's rights..
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    France needs to take action and push back islamisation and parallel society of insular muslims. France is a secular country. Muslims want to enjoy the safety, tolerance, public service and benefits of European countries without integration. The French have been too tolerant so far.
 
 
 
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