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What a world without God means Watch

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    so people made up god to give themselves false purpose
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Notice that's God being 'I'. I don't know about the second sentence but that's where translation and interpretation comes in - like analysis of any literary text

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    Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

    There's one. But yeah, if there's room for interpretation in a book that claims itself the perfect, unchangeable word of God, we do have a problem, don't we
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    Live within the construct, dude. It doesn't actually matter that are lives lack meaning because the whole idea is to give it meaning. Technically, you shouldn't feel obliged to help others, for instance, but in a life without meaning, why not? Trying to take an objective outlook on life makes you far too cynical; just have fun while your here.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    It doesn't. But, when life is so hard for so many, I would consider it imperative that it does at least seem to, otherwise why should these people bother? why not going on a murder spree and end it all right now?

    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Why enjoy life 'now while you still can'? The point I was making is that enjoyment now is futile since neither you nor anyone else will benefit or remember, under atheism. Please explain what objective reasons I have for trying to get enjoyment out of life if I end up the same regardless - without any recollection of joy?
    Personally I see life as worth living for as long as I'm enjoying it. Even if it will not matter later, it does now since I'm alive and experiencing it. It's not about thinking what you'll get out of the fact that you've enjoyed yourself, it's about realising that you're enjoying yourself now so might as well go with it. I did intend on suicide if it becomes too difficult and therefore pointless to bother with, but your killing spree idea sounds more fun tbh
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    (Original post by MasterJack)
    "You might think that since you only get one shot at life you have to make the most of it, or else you’ll regret all those things you never did. But once you die, you’re not capable of regret."
    That's a reason to not have unjustifiable fear of death, it's not the justification of not making the best use of your life.
    Isn't it? What on earth do you gain by 'making the best use of your life'? Nothing. You end the same as someone who had a terrible life. No point.

    (Original post by MasterJack)
    They're not skulking in the corner crying or laying motionless, apathetic about everything. They're living their lives just as well as those with religion guiding their lives.
    I never said they were - in fact I've said repeatedly that it's very possible for atheists to live happy lives, but they're just living off their self-made delusions.

    Although it should be noted:
    "Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicides rates (which compared 100 countries), of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism. Of the bottom ten nations with the lowest male suicide rates, all are highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."
    http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/fo...-Suicide-Rates


    (Original post by MasterJack)
    "Please explain what objective reasons I have for trying to get enjoyment out of life if I end up the same regardless- without any recollection of joy?"
    I would've answered this question but the tone of your post had me check our your history of posts
    Ah, so I'm not worthy of a response from your Highness. I understand.

    (Original post by MasterJack)
    You come across as a salesman peddling his religion.
    Firstly, I'm female, and secondly I don't belong to a religion. Notice my use of 'theism' instead of 'Catholicism', say. I often use Christian examples because it's the religion I and most here know best.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    This is where you make a major flaw. Perhaps in your theology objective morals don't exist if God doesn't, but there are belief systems out there that do believe in God whilst also maintaining that objective morals are non-existent. I myself used to be a pantheist and I believed in a deity who itself rejected the notion of objective morality.
    The possibility of God existing and objective moral values not existing does nothing to undermine the logic of the argument. Take a look again. It's phrased 'if God does not exist' not 'if God exists', as you are implying.
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    (Original post by HurtfulHarold)
    Live within the construct, dude. It doesn't actually matter that are lives lack meaning because the whole idea is to give it meaning. Technically, you shouldn't feel obliged to help others, for instance, but in a life without meaning, why not? Trying to take an objective outlook on life makes you far too cynical; just have fun while your here.
    'the whole idea is to give it meaning'

    Aaaaand there's your personal self-imposed delusion
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    The possibility of God existing and objective moral values not existing does nothing to undermine the logic of the argument. Take a look again. It's phrased 'if God does not exist' not 'if God exists', as you are implying.
    What? You said "If God doesn't exist, then objective morals don't exist." But this premise is not necessarily true because objective morals can still not exist even if God does.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    What? You said "If God doesn't exist, then objective morals don't exist." But this premise is not necessarily true because objective morals can still not exist even if God does.
    But this makes no difference to the logic of the argument. Perhaps other similar premises are possible - perhaps the premise 'If God does exist, objective morality does not exist' is, as you're arguing, possibly true. But this is irrelevant to the argument.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    But this makes no difference to the logic of the argument. Perhaps other similar premises are possible - perhaps the premise 'If God does exist, objective morality does not exist' is, as you're arguing, possibly true. But this is irrelevant to the argument.
    Well you were commenting on atheists and their lack of objective morals when there are actually also many theists who reject objective morals.
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    Would you like a carrot?
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Well you were commenting on atheists and their lack of objective morals when there are actually also many theists who reject objective morals.
    But there aren't any theists trying to use the problem of evil to disprove God, which was why it came up.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    How about the UK or US? The two most prolific surveillance governments in history. It's not about God providing morality - it's about people feeling the need to act morally. God provides this impetus. When God is gone, you get surveillance like we currently have.

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    Using the UK as an example of a morally correct country based on religion is invalid because there has been an increase of atheists(53% consider themselves to be atheists as opposed to 30% of the religious people) which do not believe in God so please tell me where non-believers get their morality from?

    As much I can tell you feel the need to justify everything on religion, religion does not as much impact now compared to the past. As A.J. Ayer(1910-1989) states "No morality can be founded on authority, even if the authority were divine". In simple words, morality is morality which is not initiated by anything. God may guide us to the right path but we either do moral or immoral actions because we chose to do it even if God did or didn't exist. This obvious and clear concept is what you need to fully grasp. We don't do things for the sake of God but we do it for ourselves even if God condemns us from doing so. I may drink alcohol because I want to even though God says it is haram. Look at the world, everyone does things because they chose to do not because of religion.
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    (Original post by Defraction)
    Using the UK as an example of a morally correct country based on religion is invalid
    Urm... I wasn't. I was doing the precise opposite, in fact.

    (Original post by Defraction)
    As much I can tell you feel the need to justify everything on religion, religion does not as much impact now compared to the past. As A.J. Ayer(1910-1989) states "No morality can be founded on authority, even if the authority were divine". In simple words, morality is morality which is not initiated by anything. God may guide us to the right path but we either do moral or immoral actions because we chose to do it even if God did or didn't exist. This obvious and clear concept is what you need to fully grasp. We don't do things for the sake of God but we do it for ourselves even if God condemns us from doing so. I may drink alcohol because I want to even though God says it is haram. Look at the world, everyone does things because they chose to do not because of religion.
    I've never once said we need God to be moral. The only reason morality even came up was because someone was attempting to imply that evil in the world disproved God. I was merely pointing out that if it weren't for God they could have no objective basis on which to mount the argument (it is self defeating, when linked to the moral argument).

    Just to reiterate: people do not require God to live moral lives.

    The point about CCTV is that throughout most of history the general view was that if you did something bad, even if you weren't seen, God would still see. This undoubtedly prevented people taking liberties. With God gone, it's natural for him to be replaced by surveillance.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Isn't it? What on earth do you gain by 'making the best use of your life'? Nothing. You end the same as someone who had a terrible life. No point.


    I never said they were - in fact I've said repeatedly that it's very possible for atheists to live happy lives, but they're just living off their self-made delusions.

    Although it should be noted:
    "Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicides rates (which compared 100 countries), of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism. Of the bottom ten nations with the lowest male suicide rates, all are highly religious nations with statistically insignificant levels of organic atheism."
    http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/fo...-Suicide-Rates




    Ah, so I'm not worthy of a response from your Highness. I understand.



    Firstly, I'm female, and secondly I don't belong to a religion. Notice my use of 'theism' instead of 'Catholicism', say. I often use Christian examples because it's the religion I and most here know best.
    Ever hear of the phrase "ignorance is bliss"? Maybe the suicide rates in religous countries are lower but that says nothing about the truth of theism.It probably is comforting to delude yourself with tales of paradise after death but some of us prefer to look death in the eye and to see reality for what it really is.Of course its also a sin in most religions so that could explain it as well.
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    Ever hear of the phrase "ignorance is bliss"? Maybe the suicide rates in religous countries are lower but that says nothing about the truth of theism.It probably is comforting to delude yourself with tales of paradise after death but some of us prefer to look death in the eye and to see reality for what it really is.Of course its also a sin in most religions so that could explain it as well.
    I never said that higher suicide rates among atheists proved theism - I only mentioned it to correct someone who was arguing that a total lack of objective purpose had no effect on people's psyche.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    'the whole idea is to give it meaning'

    Aaaaand there's your personal self-imposed delusion
    How is it a delusion? It's better than being nihilistic or something and frankly, I don't see what's wrong with it. Ultimately, I feel as if giving your life meaning can apply to everyone, albeit being a bit vague.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Urm... I wasn't. I was doing the precise opposite, in fact.



    I've never once said we need God to be moral. The only reason morality even came up was because someone was attempting to imply that evil in the world disproved God. I was merely pointing out that if it weren't for God they could have no objective basis on which to mount the argument (it is self defeating, when linked to the moral argument).

    Just to reiterate: people do not require God to live moral lives.

    The point about CCTV is that throughout most of history the general view was that if you did something bad, even if you weren't seen, God would still see. This undoubtedly prevented people taking liberties. With God gone, it's natural for him to be replaced by surveillance.
    Hmmmm, now I fully understand what you are saying. Yeah, I totally agree. Sorry for the confusion, it's just I thought you meant the reason why people are moral is because of God. I apologise for any misunderstanding we may have had. Glad, someone has similar religious views to me slightly.
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    Let me just ask you this.

    You made this thread 1 day ago. In that day I'm assuming you've eaten and drank something, because if you didn't you'd die. You've been to uni, or college, or school, because you know you need to in order to get a job to pay for this food, as well as everything else you'd need to survive i.e housing, bills, heating etc. If you didn't have any of those things, you would die one way or another. And I'm assuming you've done something to entertain yourself, i.e watched tv, surfed the internet, read a book, anything.

    So what's the point of doing all that? You could stop doing that and die in a few days from some stupid cause or live to die of old age, you won't remember what you died of. Yet you're carrying on doing that, and only you can answer why. There's a point to what you're doing, if it's simply because "I'll die if I don't" then your meaning of life is to survive. Or it could be "Because this exists and I want to do it". You must have goals in life, or just things you want to do or achieve or experience before you do die. Do you just sit and stare at the wall whenever you're not keeping yourself alive, because there's no point in doing anything else? No, you go out and do things which you ENJOY. And if you do, isn't that then as you described "a self-made fabrication of purpose in life". You kept yourself alive so you could go and do that thing you wanted to do. So you kept yourself alive for a purpose. Whether we're working towards one big purpose or lots of little purposes like that, that is our purpose.

    But just like i said, only you know why you did the things which kept you alive today.
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    Let me just ask you this.

    You made this thread 1 day ago. In that day I'm assuming you've eaten and drank something, because if you didn't you'd die. You've been to uni, or college, or school, because you know you need to in order to get a job to pay for this food, as well as everything else you'd need to survive i.e housing, bills, heating etc. If you didn't have any of those things, you would die one way or another. And I'm assuming you've done something to entertain yourself, i.e watched tv, surfed the internet, read a book, anything.

    So what's the point of doing all that? You could stop doing that and die in a few days from some stupid cause or live to die of old age, you won't remember what you died of. Yet you're carrying on doing that, and only you can answer why. There's a point to what you're doing, if it's simply because "I'll die if I don't" then your meaning of life is to survive. Or it could be "Because this exists and I want to do it". You must have goals in life, or just things you want to do or achieve or experience before you do die. Do you just sit and stare at the wall whenever you're not keeping yourself alive, because there's no point in doing anything else? No, you go out and do things which you ENJOY. And if you do, isn't that then as you described "a self-made fabrication of purpose in life". You kept yourself alive so you could go and do that thing you wanted to do. So you kept yourself alive for a purpose. Whether we're working towards one big purpose or lots of little purposes like that, that is our purpose.

    But just like i said, only you know why you did the things which kept you alive today.
    I liked your post, well written and nice to read, but I'm afraid the question is very easy to answer for a theist. They can point to their judgement, at which everything they ever did is of great importance. They will be able to remember their life - so everything you achieve will stay with you. You truly benefit from the good things you did, and are rewarded more than the bad person. I could also point to the teaching that suicide is a sin - hence I should be doing everything I can to stay alive.

    But ask your question to an atheist, and they have no real answers. Why bother? If you stay alive for longer, you won't ever remember it, or benefit from it. When you die it all becomes completely pointless, and tou won't even know you existed, let alone if you were successful. All that effort for nothing. Now I'd be interested if you could answer that.

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