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B1059 – Quota Discrimination Bill 2016


    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Nice effort but those weren't even jobs and they weren't paid.

    If you'd read the article you'd have realised. Fancy trying again?

    A spokesperson said: "This is a training and development programme designed as a positive action scheme to address an identified under-representation of people from ethnic minority backgrounds in script editing roles at the BBC."



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    I've supplied 3 more but nice try to make it acceptable by giving poc access to better training than white people as being acceptable when if I offered something like that it would be removed and attacked

    The reed one, if you read the bottom, says "No terminology in this advert is intended to discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, disability, age, sexual orientation, religion, or belief, and we confirm that we will gladly accept all applications.".



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    And subway broke the law by placing that job advert for females only.



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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    The reed one, if you read the bottom, says "No terminology in this advert is intended to discriminate on the grounds of gender, race, disability, age, sexual orientation, religion, or belief, and we confirm that we will gladly accept all applications.".



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    Will they hire them though, it's all well and good saying that to stay on the right side of the law but if it's all talk then does it really matter?

    So are you saying that quotas offer no advantages to groups? If that is the case then why do you say they do?

    (Original post by joecphillips)
    I've supplied 3 more but nice try to make it acceptable by giving poc access to better training than white people as being acceptable when if I offered something like that it would be removed and attacked
    Guess what though! That's life.

    Suck it up. Black people ARE underrepresented in media, so giving then access to the training that , relatively, a lot more white people already have access to is a way of combatting that.

    Show me how you're being discriminated against.

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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Will they hire them though, it's all well and good saying that to stay on the right side of the law but if it's all talk then does it really matter?
    I don't know, if you want to apply for that job then go ahead, it's very **** though.

    Find me a job that you can't apply for because of your gender or race or whatever. Show me how you're being discriminated against.

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    I don't know, if you want to apply for that job then go ahead, it's very **** though.

    Find me a job that you can't apply for because of your gender or race or whatever. Show me how you're being discriminated against.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    So if all you need to be able to do is be able to apply for jobs show me one where these groups can't apply for, show me how they are being discriminated against.

    (Original post by joecphillips)
    So if all you need to be able to do is be able to apply for jobs show me one where these groups can't apply for, show me how they are being discriminated against.
    Thats not my line of argument though, so no I won't do that. You're saying that quotas discriminate against you but yet you're unable to prove how.

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Thats not my line of argument though, so no I won't do that. You're saying that quotas discriminate against you but yet you're unable to prove how.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    "Racial quotas in employment and education are numerical requirements for hiring, promoting, admitting and/or graduating members of a particular racial group."
    That is the definition of a racial quota, by its nature requiring a certain people not for their ability but for their uncontrollable characteristics is discrimination.

    Let's treat it like a problem you would get in school
    There are 10 jobs and the company hiring needs to meet its quotas, 1 job HAS to be for a woman, 1 job HAS to be for a person of colour, 1 job Has to be for a LGBT person and 1 HAS to be for someone with what is classed as a disability.

    Harrison is a straight white able bodied male, how many job opportunities are available to him?
    Xavier is a gay able bodied black male, how many job opportunities are available to him?
    Erika is a disabled black lesbian, how many job opportunities are available to her?

    Go work it out and tell me if everyone has the same amount job opportunities available to them.

    (Original post by joecphillips)
    "Racial quotas in employment and education are numerical requirements for hiring, promoting, admitting and/or graduating members of a particular racial group."
    That is the definition of a racial quota, by its nature requiring a certain people not for their ability but for their uncontrollable characteristics is discrimination.

    Let's treat it like a problem you would get in school
    There are 10 jobs and the company hiring needs to meet its quotas, 1 job HAS to be for a woman, 1 job HAS to be for a person of colour, 1 job Has to be for a LGBT person and 1 HAS to be for someone with what is classed as a disability.

    Harrison is a straight white able bodied male, how many job opportunities are available to him?
    Xavier is a gay able bodied black male, how many job opportunities are available to him?
    Erika is a disabled black lesbian, how many job opportunities are available to her?

    Go work it out and tell me if everyone has the same amount job opportunities available to them.
    I'm not entertaining this, it's naive and ideological.

    One of the first things I said, go check, was that too many people are focussed in their own ideas rather than the practical implications. Bother someone else with your hypotheticals because the world isn't run based on hypothetical situations.

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    I'm not entertaining this, it's naive and ideological.

    One of the first things I said, go check, was that too many people are focussed in their own ideas rather than the practical implications. Bother someone else with your hypotheticals because the world isn't run based on hypothetical situations.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    So you are saying that quota hiring does not hire to quotas?

    (Original post by joecphillips)
    So you are saying that quota hiring does not hire to quotas?
    I'm saying that 1. Not all discrimination is bad and 2. Meritocracy and discrimination aren't mutually exclusive.

    It can't be that much of a problem for you if, when prompted to, you fail to show how you find yourself being discriminated against.

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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    "Racial quotas in employment and education are numerical requirements for hiring, promoting, admitting and/or graduating members of a particular racial group."
    That is the definition of a racial quota, by its nature requiring a certain people not for their ability but for their uncontrollable characteristics is discrimination.

    Let's treat it like a problem you would get in school
    There are 10 jobs and the company hiring needs to meet its quotas, 1 job HAS to be for a woman, 1 job HAS to be for a person of colour, 1 job Has to be for a LGBT person and 1 HAS to be for someone with what is classed as a disability.

    Harrison is a straight white able bodied male, how many job opportunities are available to him?
    Xavier is a gay able bodied black male, how many job opportunities are available to him?
    Erika is a disabled black lesbian, how many job opportunities are available to her?

    Go work it out and tell me if everyone has the same amount job opportunities available to them.
    Now let's say that 8 of the 10 jobs require a degree and relevent work experience.

    Harrison comes from a middle-class family. They fund him to go to university, and use their connections to secure him relevent internships and placements - as well as making sure he has enough to live off whilst he works these unpaid. Even after the quotas, he is a strong candidate for six positions.

    Xavier's grandparents, however, were slaves, and his parent's poorly educated. He works hard and gets to university, but finds that on his degree - history - he's at a disadvantage. Whilst his family had taught him extensively about black history and the culture of the country they originate from, his course almost exclusively concerns the history of the western world which he is less interested in. Additionally, he has to work a part-tme job to support himself. Eventually he emerges with a 2.ii. Although he is eligible for all positions and displays natural talent in the area, "safe" candidates such as Harrison are nearly always preferred.

    Erika was taken into care at a young age because her parents didn't feel able to support her with her disability. The care home is chaotic and whilst she is eventually re-housed in a foster family, she is way behind in school and struggling with her sexuality. When she comes out, she is relentlessly mocked and bullied by her peers, and kicked out of home at the age of 16. She's always had a huge passion for geography, but finds herself unable to study a degree in it. She is unable to apply for any of the jobs, despite the quotas used.

    Don't mistake this as me saying I'm in support of quotas being used in such a way - I'm very much on the fence about it. They're an extremely rudimentary tool that don't take individual circumstances into account, cause further division and can lead to cases of imposter syndrome in sucessful candidates. But arguing that they are unfair because they discriminate against individuals based on factors they can't control completely misses the point: tens of millions of people have a much harder path to success in society based entirely on factors outside their control, these individuals are disproportionately from ethnic minorities, female, LGBT+ and disabled, and quotas aim to give them a chance. It's nice to think that we all start from the same place, that we all have an equal chance and it comes down only to how hard we work - that's certainly the society we should strive for, but it isn't the one we have. Quotas as I say are very far from a perfect solution, but I have no time for arguing against them on the basis of unfairness whilst being totally blind to just how unfair things are already and how far we are from rewarding individuals solely on their personal merits.

    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Now let's say that 8 of the 10 jobs require a degree and relevent work experience.

    Harrison comes from a middle-class family. They fund him to go to university, and use their connections to secure him relevent internships and placements - as well as making sure he has enough to live off whilst he works these unpaid. Even after the quotas, he is a strong candidate for six positions.

    Xavier's grandparents, however, were slaves, and his parent's poorly educated. He works hard and gets to university, but finds that on his degree - history - he's at a disadvantage. Whilst his family had taught him extensively about black history and the culture of the country they originate from, his course almost exclusively concerns the history of the western world which he is less interested in. Additionally, he has to work a part-tme job to support himself. Eventually he emerges with a 2.ii. Although he is eligible for all positions and displays natural talent in the area, "safe" candidates such as Harrison are nearly always preferred.

    Erika was taken into care at a young age because her parents didn't feel able to support her with her disability. The care home is chaotic and whilst she is eventually re-housed in a foster family, she is way behind in school and struggling with her sexuality. When she comes out, she is relentlessly mocked and bullied by her peers, and kicked out of home at the age of 16. She's always had a huge passion for geography, but finds herself unable to study a degree in it. She is unable to apply for any of the jobs, despite the quotas used.

    Don't mistake this as me saying I'm in support of quotas being used in such a way - I'm very much on the fence about it. They're an extremely rudimentary tool that don't take individual circumstances into account, cause further division and can lead to cases of imposter syndrome in sucessful candidates. But arguing that they are unfair because they discriminate against individuals based on factors they can't control completely misses the point: tens of millions of people have a much harder path to success in society based entirely on factors outside their control, these individuals are disproportionately from ethnic minorities, female, LGBT+ and disabled, and quotas aim to give them a chance. It's nice to think that we all start from the same place, that we all have an equal chance and it comes down only to how hard we work - that's certainly the society we should strive for, but it isn't the one we have. Quotas as I say are very far from a perfect solution, but I have no time for arguing against them on the basis of unfairness whilst being totally blind to just how unfair things are already and how far we are from rewarding individuals solely on their personal merits.
    Preach sister!!!

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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Now let's say that 8 of the 10 jobs require a degree and relevent work experience.

    Harrison comes from a middle-class family. They fund him to go to university, and use their connections to secure him relevent internships and placements - as well as making sure he has enough to live off whilst he works these unpaid. Even after the quotas, he is a strong candidate for six positions.

    Xavier's grandparents, however, were slaves, and his parent's poorly educated. He works hard and gets to university, but finds that on his degree - history - he's at a disadvantage. Whilst his family had taught him extensively about black history and the culture of the country they originate from, his course almost exclusively concerns the history of the western world which he is less interested in. Additionally, he has to work a part-tme job to support himself. Eventually he emerges with a 2.ii. Although he is eligible for all positions and displays natural talent in the area, "safe" candidates such as Harrison are nearly always preferred.

    Erika was taken into care at a young age because her parents didn't feel able to support her with her disability. The care home is chaotic and whilst she is eventually re-housed in a foster family, she is way behind in school and struggling with her sexuality. When she comes out, she is relentlessly mocked and bullied by her peers, and kicked out of home at the age of 16. She's always had a huge passion for geography, but finds herself unable to study a degree in it. She is unable to apply for any of the jobs, despite the quotas used.

    Don't mistake this as me saying I'm in support of quotas being used in such a way - I'm very much on the fence about it. They're an extremely rudimentary tool that don't take individual circumstances into account, cause further division and can lead to cases of imposter syndrome in sucessful candidates. But arguing that they are unfair because they discriminate against individuals based on factors they can't control completely misses the point: tens of millions of people have a much harder path to success in society based entirely on factors outside their control, these individuals are disproportionately from ethnic minorities, female, LGBT+ and disabled, and quotas aim to give them a chance. It's nice to think that we all start from the same place, that we all have an equal chance and it comes down only to how hard we work - that's certainly the society we should strive for, but it isn't the one we have. Quotas as I say are very far from a perfect solution, but I have no time for arguing against them on the basis of unfairness whilst being totally blind to just how unfair things are already and how far we are from rewarding individuals solely on their personal merits.
    There are systems in place that help overcome this.

    You don't have family money for university - there are student loans to help there.

    Slavery has been abolished in the uk since 1833/1838 so his grand parents are getting old.
    Schools are there for learning and maybe he should of looked at the subject matter of the course better to help him go on a course that is better suited to his knowledge.

    Kids are scum they bully everyone for any little thing.
    Does having a disability mean that you deserve special treatment in the job market? In education there are systems in places to help people with disabilities.

    What you did not show was any reason why we should advantage them in the job market helping them better themselves I can support but giving them more opportunities than others no.

    Poorly educated parents plenty of white people have those it is not a race issue.

    Not a lot of spare money for university not a race issue, I know plenty of people who have to work during uni to afford uni.

    "Safe" candidates the one with more experience and a better degree?

    Parents not stepping up to the plate is a problem that effects the black community at a high rate but one again it is not a race issue.

    If you want let's look at improving the care homes to help improve the children who grow up in them lives, but this is not an issue that is being banned anyway, is this a race, gender etc issue?

    If she is behind due to the care home system then we should work on stopping that from happening it isn't a race, gender or lgbt issue, if it's because of her sexuality then we should help her accept herself.

    Why can't she study it at degree level? Maybe we should try to improve the system so she can.

    Your arguments while using black examples really aren't about colour they include:
    Class isn't racist there are plenty of poor white people out there as well.

    Bullying a lot of people get bullied for a lot of things and sometimes it includes reasons like LGBT and race etc and a lot of the time it does not.

    Missing parents/child welfare: 42% of children in the system are white but they would get no advantage for this, 52% are male yet they also would get no advantage and don't say oh but blacks by % are more as it doesn't matter in this discussion.

    Replace the genders, races, disability and LGBT standings of all these people and again work it out, a middle class black lesbian with dyspraxia would still have a better chance than a white male who grew up struggling inside the system, what you describe are problems that need looking at but they are not race, gender etc problems, judging people on those race gender etc is wrong what people should be judged on is who they are as a person.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    There are systems in place that help overcome this.

    You don't have family money for university - there are student loans to help there.

    Slavery has been abolished in the uk since 1833/1838 so his grand parents are getting old.
    Schools are there for learning and maybe he should of looked at the subject matter of the course better to help him go on a course that is better suited to his knowledge.

    Kids are scum they bully everyone for any little thing.
    Does having a disability mean that you deserve special treatment in the job market? In education there are systems in places to help people with disabilities.

    What you did not show was any reason why we should advantage them in the job market helping them better themselves I can support but giving them more opportunities than others no.

    Poorly educated parents plenty of white people have those it is not a race issue.

    Not a lot of spare money for university not a race issue, I know plenty of people who have to work during uni to afford uni.

    "Safe" candidates the one with more experience and a better degree?

    Parents not stepping up to the plate is a problem that effects the black community at a high rate but one again it is not a race issue.

    If you want let's look at improving the care homes to help improve the children who grow up in them lives, but this is not an issue that is being banned anyway, is this a race, gender etc issue?

    If she is behind due to the care home system then we should work on stopping that from happening it isn't a race, gender or lgbt issue, if it's because of her sexuality then we should help her accept herself.

    Why can't she study it at degree level? Maybe we should try to improve the system so she can.

    Your arguments while using black examples really aren't about colour they include:
    Class isn't racist there are plenty of poor white people out there as well.

    Bullying a lot of people get bullied for a lot of things and sometimes it includes reasons like LGBT and race etc and a lot of the time it does not.

    Missing parents/child welfare: 42% of children in the system are white but they would get no advantage for this, 52% are male yet they also would get no advantage and don't say oh but blacks by % are more as it doesn't matter in this discussion.

    Replace the genders, races, disability and LGBT standings of all these people and again work it out, a middle class black lesbian with dyspraxia would still have a better chance than a white male who grew up struggling inside the system, what you describe are problems that need looking at but they are not race, gender etc problems, judging people on those race gender etc is wrong what people should be judged on is who they are as a person.
    When you say that issues disproportionately affecting black people are not "race issues", it's as though you believe they are affected merely by coincidence. As though you believe that centuries of racism, slavery, and discrimination that mean black families were all too often uneducated, unemployed and unable to give their children the best chance in life no longer matter now we've legislated the problems away, and that the poor outcomes for black people today have no relation to it. That to me seems plainly ridiculous. Nobody's saying that straight white men don't have any problems - but their problems do not arise from them being from that demographic. I agree that it's by far the more preferable option to instead fix the structural flaws in our system to generally enable social mobility for those willing to work for it, no matter their background, but that's also a very difficult and expensive option. It means ensuring decent homes for everyone, changing social attitudes to reduce discrimination, ending the unfair means testing of student support, improving the care system, re-opening SureStart centres to tackle the structural disadvantages which hinder children before they even start nursery - all policies, I may add, championed by Labour which the Government apparently lacks with the will or the means to implement. But in the mean time, there is for me definite value in a band-aid solution such as quotas which can, if a business chooses to use them, give many people unfairly denied a fair shot at their first chance in life a second.

    For me, I first imagine what I'd do if I were a small business owner, hiring for a single position with two candidates. One of them had the good degree and relevent experience, but proves uninspring at the interview stage - well coached for sure, but lacking any real passion for the job or exceptional quality. Meanwhile, I have a second candidate who perhaps has plenty of practical experience but no degree, or does have a degree but not with top grades and hasn't got an impressive internship. But in their CV and at interview, they appear extremely passionate and committed, and express a willingness to work very hard and undergo extra training. Assuming that I have enough staff with the standard pre-requistes to keep things ticking over if they take a while to settle in, I'd be very tempted to go for the second candidate despite their disadvantage on paper.

    Now, if I was instead a manage at a multinational company with hundreds of vacancies, this kind of individual analysis clearly isn't a realistic option. But I don't want an entire department full of only the people who shine on paper - especially if I'm in a creative industry where a variety of viewpoints can be paramount. So, how would I go about selecting people to bring some much-needed diversity in, with the aim of uncovering unspotted talent? In all honesty, I may well use a quota - selecting for those who come from a background where they've likely had a lot of challenges in reaching the normal requirements to come for interviews and present their case. I'm not saying that this is inherently right or wrong. But if I do turn out to be right, my sucess will be borne out by the free market - I'll have some fantastic employees without huge expense, and other companies may follow suit. If I'm wrong, and the disproportionately straight white people are in fact the best candidates, I'll struggle and be forced to either adapt my employment practices or see my business struggle too. At the end of the day, whether these quotas amount to unfair discrimination or an imperfect but still worthwhile means of finding untraditional but talented candidates is not a debate we need an objective answer to in order to decide how to vote on them - because if the government butts out, the free market is perfectly capable of deciding for itself, and that's how we should let things be.

    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    When you say that issues disproportionately affecting black people are not "race issues", it's as though you believe they are affected merely by coincidence. As though you believe that centuries of racism, slavery, and discrimination that mean black families were all too often uneducated, unemployed and unable to give their children the best chance in life no longer matter now we've legislated the problems away, and that the poor outcomes for black people today have no relation to it. That to me seems plainly ridiculous. Nobody's saying that straight white men don't have any problems - but their problems do not arise from them being from that demographic. I agree that it's by far the more preferable option to instead fix the structural flaws in our system to generally enable social mobility for those willing to work for it, no matter their background, but that's also a very difficult and expensive option. It means ensuring decent homes for everyone, changing social attitudes to reduce discrimination, ending the unfair means testing of student support, improving the care system, re-opening SureStart centres to tackle the structural disadvantages which hinder children before they even start nursery - all policies, I may add, championed by Labour which the Government apparently lacks with the will or the means to implement. But in the mean time, there is for me definite value in a band-aid solution such as quotas which can, if a business chooses to use them, give many people unfairly denied a fair shot at their first chance in life a second.

    For me, I first imagine what I'd do if I were a small business owner, hiring for a single position with two candidates. One of them had the good degree and relevent experience, but proves uninspring at the interview stage - well coached for sure, but lacking any real passion for the job or exceptional quality. Meanwhile, I have a second candidate who perhaps has plenty of practical experience but no degree, or does have a degree but not with top grades and hasn't got an impressive internship. But in their CV and at interview, they appear extremely passionate and committed, and express a willingness to work very hard and undergo extra training. Assuming that I have enough staff with the standard pre-requistes to keep things ticking over if they take a while to settle in, I'd be very tempted to go for the second candidate despite their disadvantage on paper.

    Now, if I was instead a manage at a multinational company with hundreds of vacancies, this kind of individual analysis clearly isn't a realistic option. But I don't want an entire department full of only the people who shine on paper - especially if I'm in a creative industry where a variety of viewpoints can be paramount. So, how would I go about selecting people to bring some much-needed diversity in, with the aim of uncovering unspotted talent? In all honesty, I may well use a quota - selecting for those who come from a background where they've likely had a lot of challenges in reaching the normal requirements to come for interviews and present their case. I'm not saying that this is inherently right or wrong. But if I do turn out to be right, my sucess will be borne out by the free market - I'll have some fantastic employees without huge expense, and other companies may follow suit. If I'm wrong, and the disproportionately straight white people are in fact the best candidates, I'll struggle and be forced to either adapt my employment practices or see my business struggle too. At the end of the day, whether these quotas amount to unfair discrimination or an imperfect but still worthwhile means of finding untraditional but talented candidates is not a debate we need an objective answer to in order to decide how to vote on them - because if the government butts out, the free market is perfectly capable of deciding for itself, and that's how we should let things be.
    You've said we have legislated the problems away so what is left? Culture and that is where the problem lies.
    It is also worth noting that poor white boys get a worse start in life. http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...quality-report
    Are you going to discuss this? Do poor white boys get quotas in jobs?
    Just be clear your band aid solution is open discrimination and that discrimination doesn't help the people the equality and human rights commission says are worse off?

    So you are a fan of racial profiling, can the police do that as well?
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    This bill has gone to a second reading.
 
 
 
Updated: September 27, 2016
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