Is "accidental penetration" rape?

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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    It's possible he carried on because he thought she changed her mind. She initially said she didn't want him to be insider her, but after accidental penetration, she didn't say or do anything. From his perspective, it would have seemed like she was okay with it (which may be why he didn't stop). From her perspective, well, I have no idea how she was unaware of him being insider her (I'm also confused). Which would lead me (and a court) to believe she likely did know, but chose not to correct the situation for some reason.

    Rape is an abhorent crime. This? It really doesn't seem like it. While an argument could be made that he technically penetrated her without consent (although this is hard to prove - not all consent is verbal - but she did say no earlier on), the whole thing isn't really in the 'spirit' of rape, if you know what I mean. And it just sounds a little weird.
    The scenario is ridiculous and not worth arguing over. However, I will point out that freezing is a common reaction to a traumatic event. That is why making sure one actually has consent is good for everyone. Putting your penis inside someone and assuming it's probably fine is stupid, especially when they've already definitely said they didn't want that. Which according to the OP they did.*
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    (Original post by GradeA*UnderA)
    Have some perspective. If someone was forcing themselves on a woman and penetrating them, many would be too shocked to do anything about it. "Who wouldn't notice a penis inside them" is a weak point as it's evidentially traumatising for them. It's extremely easy to tell whether someone is enjoying sex or not by their facial expression, you certainly do not need to be a mind reader to decipher it. But, even then, one simple verbal statement such as "how are you feeling" gives a more conclusive response. If she says "no" or remains silent, you can be certain you're doing something extremely unjust.

    There are no excuses. This is non-consensual and consequently, it is rape.
    tbh to me if someone says 'I don't want to do X' unless they actively initiate X with no prompting you should be explicitly asking them if X is okay if you think you've been given some sort of non-verbal go ahead - it's not going to ruin sex to say 'you okay with this?' and will take all of 2 seconds
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    (Original post by porn induced coma)
    The scenario is ridiculous and not worth arguing over. However, I will point out that freezing is a common reaction to a traumatic event. That is why making sure one actually has consent is good for everyone. Putting your penis inside someone and assuming it's probably fine is stupid, especially when they've already definitely said they didn't want that. Which according to the OP they did.*
    So she was perfectly fine with him rubbing his penis all over her bare vagina, but suddenly became so traumatised when it went in that she was physically unable to communicate any form of rejection. Err, okay... Well, according to the description, she wasn't even aware, anyway. Most of what I'm arguing concerns what her partner would be thinking and why he didn't stop.

    If someone says they don't want something, then it happens, but then they don't say anything and appear to just go along with it, it's not beyond comprehension that someone is naturally going to assume: "Oh, I guess she's okay with it then. Must've changed her mind. Great, I'll keep going."

    But yes, this scenario does seem too ridiculous and unlikely. I'd have so many more questions if I was made privy to this (in real life).
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    someone is naturally going to assume: "Oh, I guess she's okay with it then. Must've changed her mind. Great, I'll keep going."
    That's not okay, that assuming attitude hurts people. As someone who freezes I know how entirely possible it is to immediately lose the ability to defend myself when confronted with a threat. I make certain to chose my company carefully now I know how paralysing that fear can be (and how horrible the experience of rape and sexual assault is) and I clearly state my boundaries.*

    Just because I may not be able to scream stop if someone violates my consent does not mean my consent has not been violated.

    *This scenario seems to me to be the result of one person trying to badger another into sex, other person has agreed to something they felt they could be comfortable with, and then the first person just does what they like anyway. Sounds pretty traumatising to me. And some of us know about *****y compromises like this where we didn't want to do anything, but got worn down. I'm not saying getting worn down is rape, just *****y. I don't know who enjoys sexual contact with someone they had to wear down....but I digress.

    Though still unlikely and confusing in some points.*

    All all this says to me is that we need better, more empowering sex education.*
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    So she was perfectly fine with him rubbing his penis all over her bare vagina, but suddenly became so traumatised when it went in that she was physically unable to communicate any form of rejection. Err, okay...
    There's nothing wrong with being okay with one thing, but clearly not being okay with another. It's called a boundary and we all have them.*

    Why don't you make it more clear that you have never been penetrated and therefore have no idea how traumatising the experience can be if you have not consented?

    I mean, imagine we were in bed together and I had worn you down to the point where you agreed to let me rub my strap on all over your cute butt. If I suddenly rammed *it home and started sawing away would it be okay if you didn't say anything due to shock? Or trauma? Would it be okay that I don't care enough to check?

    As far as I know silence doesn't equal consent. And if it does in your world then I find that sad. We should all be seeking enthusiastic consent. doodle_333 is 100% right about that.*
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    (Original post by 999tigger)
    The fact that he did inform her after of the penetration is confirmation he knew, which you put together with you know the only issue on consent was that he knew she had expressly not given it.
    This is true, but given it's an incredibly implausible fictional scenario, I think the tiny details matter.

    He did know he penetrated her, but perhaps it was only after ejaculation. "Oh my goodness, I've just realised when I came I was inside you." Which would change my interpretation of it. The scenario should specify.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    where is "continued" penetration in the case law that I referred to though? if it doesn't apply to the OP (which I didn't read all of) then...then why are you saying this about the possibility of my case law not applying? did *you* not read all of the opening post as well?
    No one's even talking about the case you referred to. All responses to you are clearly talking about you saying the case in the OP isn't rape. Don't be so obtuse.

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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    So she was perfectly fine with him rubbing his penis all over her bare vagina, but suddenly became so traumatised when it went in that she was physically unable to communicate any form of rejection. Err, okay... Well, according to the description, she wasn't even aware, anyway. Most of what I'm arguing concerns what her partner would be thinking and why he didn't stop.

    If someone says they don't want something, then it happens, but then they don't say anything and appear to just go along with it, it's not beyond comprehension that someone is naturally going to assume: "Oh, I guess she's okay with it then. Must've changed her mind. Great, I'll keep going."

    But yes, this scenario does seem too ridiculous and unlikely. I'd have so many more questions if I was made privy to this (in real life).
    It's not up to you to decide whether another's trauma as a result of penetration is justified or not. If a person explicitly says they do not want penetration, then they have a right to be traumatised, to emotionally react. Whether you think that's ridiculous or not quite frankly is irrelevant. Many people don't consent to penetration because of cultural/ religious beliefs, but consent to many other forms of sexual activity. You may think that's stupid, but that makes no difference to the case. That fine line that determines sexual intercourse can cause distress if unwillingly crossed. You have no right to tell another whether their beliefs or emotional reactions to non-consensual activity are wrong.

    Rape doesn't work that way, it's not a case of 'well you didn't say you didn't want it!'. Nice try though.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    To make this short, I'll bullet point this situation..

    1. A man and woman are in bed, kissing and such.
    2. The girl made it VERY clear she did not want to have sex with the man
    3. She however, agreed to him rubbing his penis on her vagina
    4. They do that, but at some point, it slips inside and the man does not stop having sex...
    5. The woman is unaware that it slipped inside but is informed by the man, after he ejaculates, that he did penetrate her.

    IS THIS RAPE? What are your thoughts?
    the woman is unaware that it slipped inside
    LOL
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    (Original post by Twinpeaks)
    It's not up to you to decide whether another's trauma as a result of penetration is justified or not. If a person explicitly says they do not want penetration, then they have a right to be traumatised, to emotionally react. Whether you think that's ridiculous or not quite frankly is irrelevant. Many people don't consent to penetration because of cultural/ religious beliefs, but consent to many other forms of sexual activity. You may think that's stupid, but that makes no difference to the case. That fine line that determines sexual intercourse can cause distress if unwillingly crossed. You have no right to tell another whether their beliefs or emotional reactions to non-consensual activity are wrong.

    Rape doesn't work that way, it's not a case of 'well you didn't say you didn't want it!'. Nice try though.
    Your comment just traumatised me.

    While it would be unethical to automatically discount potential traumatisation, the plausibility of it does factor in, otherwise it could be claimed whenever it's convenient and would have to go completely unchallenged, even if it was a lie. We also can't assume that there was traumatisation on someone else's behalf, which is exactly what you're doing.

    Plus, are you forgetting that in this entirely made-up scenario that she is unaware of the penetration? As unrealistic as that sounds, in the scenario we are arguing over she couldn't have frozen due to traumatisation, anyway, because she was unaware.

    There are different forms of content, and people's minds and feelings change as things play out. You can communicate verbally that you don't want something beforehand, but then later on physically communicate that you're okay with it. Her partner could have interpreted her apparent lack of reaction as a form of passive consent. I.e. she was cool with him rubbing his penis on her bare vagina, and although she said she didn't want penetration earlier on, now she's apparently cool with him being inside her. Of course we know she didn't know his penis was inside, but the guy could quite easily believe that she'd changed her mind. For all we know this guy would never even dream of raping someone, buy suddenly he's committed a major criminal offense because of poor communication during sex and a bizarrely numb vagina.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    To make this short, I'll bullet point this situation..

    1. A man and woman are in bed, kissing and such.
    2. The girl made it VERY clear she did not want to have sex with the man
    3. She however, agreed to him rubbing his penis on her vagina
    4. They do that, but at some point, it slips inside and the man does not stop having sex...
    5. The woman is unaware that it slipped inside but is informed by the man, after he ejaculates, that he did penetrate her.

    IS THIS RAPE? What are your thoughts?
    If he carried on having sex without informing her, it's absolutely rape. I'm fairly certain this could never happen but regardless, if it somehow did it would be rape.
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    Your comment just traumatised me.

    While it would be unethical to automatically discount potential traumatisation, the plausibility of it does factor in, otherwise it could be claimed whenever it's convenient and would have to go completely unchallenged, even if it was a lie. We also can't assume that there was traumatisation on someone else's behalf, which is exactly what you're doing.

    Plus, are you forgetting that in this entirely made-up scenario that she is unaware of the penetration? As unrealistic as that sounds, in the scenario we are arguing over she couldn't have frozen due to traumatisation, anyway, because she was unaware.

    There are different forms of content, and people's minds and feelings change as things play out. You can communicate verbally that you don't want something beforehand, but then later on physically communicate that you're okay with it. Her partner could have interpreted her apparent lack of reaction as a form of passive consent. I.e. she was cool with him rubbing his penis on her bare vagina, and although she said she didn't want penetration earlier on, now she's apparently cool with him being inside her. Of course we know she didn't know his penis was inside, but the guy could quite easily believe that she'd changed her mind. For all we know this guy would never even dream of raping someone, buy suddenly he's committed a major criminal offense because of poor communication during sex and a bizarrely numb vagina.

    No. I'm not assuming she was traumatised actually, I was merely responding to your own point where you expressed astonishment that a woman would be traumatised given she didn't even notice penetration. So no love, I have not assumed that the woman is traumatised. I merely responded to your hypothetical argument, presenting an argument as to why it can be plausible to be traumatised under the circumstances.

    Perhaps you should look back over your own posts next time before accusing me of something which you actually did yourself, and I was merely responding to

    The point is not about assumptions, it's about believing someone's claim. You said that it wouldn't be believable, I merely said it would. No assumptions. Again, nice try.

    I never said she would have "froze" due to traumatisation, so her being unaware during the act doesn't even apply to my argument. I claimed she may be traumatised afterwards, due to cultural/ personal reasons. Misplaced argument.

    Your entire last paragraph is based on sweeping assumptions, a little hypocritical given your first complaint of my post was that I made an assumption. Which turns out I didn't even do that.

    Perhaps my post "traumatised you" because it causes some dissonance when your read something that goes against your own opinion but actually makes sense.
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    LMAO :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
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    Kinda...

    1) Penal contact was accepted by the female, but penetration was frobidden.
    2) She was penetrated without her knowledge
    3) The guy continued after breaching her boundaries.

    So yes, it would be classed as rape.

    UNLESS, she was fine with it in the end, which then it was just a mistake and poor judgement.
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    Forgetting everything else. It's not actually accidental if you realise you've done it and carry on. Accidental is accidentally slipping to wrong entrance but then _immediately_ upon realising pulling away.

    Accidental is not..oops, done what she didn't want me to do..oh well let's see if she notices.

    And you obviously wouldn't be that bothered about her boundaries if you weren't not concentrating on NOT penetrating.

    For those of you that think foreplay means you can do whatever the hell you want..seriously get some sex education and learn about consent. Foreplay is normal and it's also not uncommon for virgins to do this sort of foreplay before braving first time.

    The fight flight freeze response can be triggered in a number of ways. You might not freeze if someone's penetrates you without consent but someone else might. Especially someone with sexual abuse history. This is why explicit consent rather than "i'll just go until a no" is necessary for healthy sex

    Also "if she's fine with it in the end"?? Really? TSR actually makes me really despair sometimes. What matters is that she wasn't fine with it at the time.
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    I don't think you can make a sound judgement on the limited info given.

    For example, what it, after penetration, she had encouraged him by saying "oh yeah, don't stop. That feels good." etc?

    She might have thought he was still outside. He might have thought she was consenting to penetration. Would he have reasonable belief that she did not consent then?
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    Rape
    The boy had the aim of putting it inside of her all along, nasty animal
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    5. The woman is unaware that it slipped inside but is informed by the man, after he ejaculates, that he did penetrate her.
    Well, I don't think that this situation can happen.

    /thread.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    I don't think you can make a sound judgement on the limited info given.

    For example, what it, after penetration, she had encouraged him by saying "oh yeah, don't stop. That feels good." etc?

    She might have thought he was still outside. He might have thought she was consenting to penetration. Would he have reasonable belief that she did not consent then?
    I disagree. We CAN make a sound judgement based on the info given. It's just that the scenario given doesn't give other scenarios where consent can be assumed and therefore not rape.

    But if you're that concerned about being falsely accused, you could be decent human being and check. There's a phrase...oh yeah. Assume makes an ass out of you and me. How difficult is it to just say, are you sure you want this? And if you're not convinced they know what "this" is be more explicit. Are you sure you want to go all the way? Or whatever way you wanna say it to make it sexy..as long as it's clear that you're asking consent and what you need consent for
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    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    I disagree. We CAN make a sound judgement based on the info given. It's just that the scenario given doesn't give other scenarios where consent can be assumed and therefore not rape.
    But what about my suggested extra details? Without knowing whether something like that did or didn't happen, can we make a sound judgement? That's why police interviews or court cases have to go through these details so finely.

    If nothing like I suggested occurred, it definitely pushes things towards rape. But we need full information to be sure.
 
 
 
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