why we need religion?

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    By defining it (atheism) as the 'absence of belief' atheism is no longer an intellectual position but a description of your psychological state, hence neither true nor false. Be careful with your words.

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    no, as far as I am concerned, atheism is a "belief" just like any other. You may believe that God exists, I believe he doesn't.

    Be careful with your words
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    (Original post by samantham999)
    society, homosexuals think its a cool trend to be gay.
    Let me give you an example, a guy for e.g is not macho/manly like the stereotype and he has some feminine qualities, he mistakes this for being interested in men and therefore effs men.
    Now you're saying society thinks being gay is cool yet just before you said most of the world is against homosexuality. If you're going to troll then at least try and be consistent, your current efforts are appallingly bad.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    no, as far as I am concerned, atheism is a "belief" just like any other. You may believe that God exists, I believe he doesn't.

    Be careful with your words
    Ah, so now you're asserting the positive claim that God does not exist. Have you any evidence to support such a claim?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Ah, so now you're asserting the positive claim that God does not exist. Have you any evidence to support such a claim?
    as much as any person who claims that God exists

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    as much as any person who claims that God exists

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    Well, there are a lot of philosophical arguments for God's existence, quite apart from people's personal experience of Him.

    There isn't a single remotely successful philosophical argument for your positive atheism (if you have one please do bring it up). So actually the theist has considerably more on their side.

    But we're not talking about religious people here, so I'm not sure why you've brought them up. We're talking about you, and the fact that your positive atheism (aka hard atheism) is untenable.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    We're talking about you, and the fact that positive (aka hard) atheism is untenable.
    total nonsense

    all things considered, I believe that God does not exist : therefore, positive atheism is perfectly tenable, and I am the proof for it

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    total nonsense

    I believe that God does not exist : therefore, positive atheism is perfectly tenable, and I am the proof for it

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    Saying you think something doesn't make it reasonable, you realise. By that logic, anyone could say any old gibberish and follow up with: "and my position's clearly tenable because I just said it so I'm living proof that it's tenable!"
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    I wish I was religious. It would be good to believe in something better.
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    I think we need religion because it gives people hope, helps people during times of grief and pain and it gives some people a purpose to life. I also think most religions do try to promote good and were created to try and take away the bad things in society: smoking, gambling, prostitution etc. It was a guide to how society should be, not so much anymore though.


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    (Original post by lamaragymnast)
    I wish I was religious. It would be good to believe in something better.
    Read CS Lewis' 'Surprised by Joy'. It's about his life as an atheist, and his discovery of God
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Read CS Lewis' 'Surprised by Joy'. It's about his life as an atheist, and his discovery of God
    Does it have pictures, money off coupons and personality surveys in it?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Saying you think something doesn't make it reasonable, you realise. By that logic, anyone could say any old gibberish and follow up with: "and my position's clearly tenable because I just said it so I'm living proof that it's tenable!"
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel :

    Was vernünftig ist, das ist Wirklich; und was wirklich ist, das ist vernünftig.
    Grundlinien der Philosophie des Rechts (1820/1821)

    What is reasonable is real; that which is real is reasonable.
    Elements of the Philosophy of Right (1820/1821)

    (Furthermore : Upon this conviction stand not philosophy only but even every unsophisticated consciousness)

    everything which is real is rational : my disbelief is real, therefore it is rational

    in any case, you have limited yourself to claiming that there is proof for God's existence. If you give me your proof for God's existence, I will tell you the reasons why I believe he doesn't exist

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    (Original post by lamaragymnast)
    I wish I was religious. It would be good to believe in something better.
    or worse ?

    would e.g. hellfire, eternal torture etc qualify as "something better" ?

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    or worse ?

    would e.g. hellfire, eternal torture etc qualify as "something better" ?

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    I'd be okay as I'm nice, so I'd get eternity in paradise or something.
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    (Original post by Dkaurp)
    most religions do try to promote good and were created to try and take away the bad things in society
    and failed egregiously

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    (Original post by lamaragymnast)
    I'd be okay as I'm nice, so I'd get eternity in paradise or something.
    I would also easily get eternal happiness, since I'm very, very nice (and modest, also), but intellectual honesty compels me to dismiss this possibility of eternal bliss

    amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas (Plato is a friend, but truth is even more so)

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel :

    Was vernünftig ist, das ist Wirklich; und was wirklich ist, das ist vernünftig.
    Grundlinien der Philosophie des Rechts (1820/1821)

    What is reasonable is real; that which is real is reasonable.
    Elements of the Philosophy of Right (1820/1821)

    (Furthermore : Upon this conviction stand not philosophy only but even every unsophisticated consciousness)

    everything which is real is rational : my disbelief is real, therefore it is rational

    in any case, you have limited yourself to claiming that there is proof for God's existence. If you give me your proof for God's existence, I will tell you the reasons why I believe he doesn't exist

    best
    Why quoting Hegel helps your cause I do not know. When he said those things he was attempting to make a defence for idealism, a highly contested school of thought. It in no way excuses you for the frankly absurd suggestion that merely because you are saying something it in some way makes it intellectually valid. As I said before, this logic could be used to justify literally any nonsensical postion (such as your own).

    Again, you're talking about what I believe in - this is simply irrelevant. Stick to the topic of discussion. Your assertion of hard atheism doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Unless you can prove the non-existence of God your position fails.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    you're talking about what I believe in - this is simply irrelevant..
    it's highly relevant.

    If you will tell me why you believe God exists, I will tell you why I believe that God does not exist.

    I don't see why I should make the effort of stating my reasons if you don't make the parallel effort of stating yours. In fact, it's you who should start, since you claim that my position has no base

    All the best
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    it's highly relevant.

    If you will tell me why you believe God exists, I will tell you why I believe that God does not exist.

    I don't see why I should make the effort of stating my reasons if you don't make the parallel effort of stating yours. In fact, it's you who should start, since you claim that my position has no base

    All the best
    You are again completely misunderstanding my point. You are making the POSITIVE claim that God does not exist, rather than the claim of most atheists that they merely 'lack belief in God'. In order to substantiate your POSITIVE claim, you have to provide some arguments. So, where are they?

    The arguments concerning the theist's claim that God does exist need to be looked at too, of course, but they have no bearing on our discussion so please stop bringing them up to try and change the topic. A key rule in philosophy is not bringing in irrelevant side arguments.

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    You are again conpletely misunderstanding my point. You are making the POSITIVE claim that God does not exist,
    you are totally misrepresenting the issue. This is what I wrote

    (Original post by mariachi)
    as far as I am concerned, atheism is a "belief" just like any other. You may believe that God exists, I believe he doesn't.
    this is stating a clear, obvious fact. It is real, and therefore has its own rationality.

    Now, if you claim that my belief is untenable, please go ahead. Prove it.

    Most certainly, I am not going to cut out your work for you.

    Best
 
 
 
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