STEM students should pay higher tuition fees

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    (Original post by jessyjellytot14)
    It would be nice if universities actually gave you a break-down of what the £9000+ is spent on.
    Also seems fishy how at many institutions, the textbooks are not included in the price... Funny how some state school sixth forms on a tight budget manage to provide textbooks for all of their students, yet they are not receiving £9000 a year from everyone.
    It's an artificial cost set by government. For a more realistic true cost refer to the fees they charge international students.

    And you can download the annual financial reports for any particular university from their website. All the costs and income are published and in the public domain.

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    I think this is a crazy idea. If fees for non-STEM courses were to be kept lower more people may opt for these courses purely down to the finance of it. Therefore, there would be more graduates with degrees that do not necessarily lead to career progression (unlike many STEM courses that lead to highly skilled careers) thus increasing the amount of people looking for jobs. The STEM industry would possibly hit a low in employment as people are dissuaded from the courses as it may be financially impossible for them to fund it. STEM careers are often vital for the world to function (engineers, biologists, plant scientists) whereas subjects such as history and sociology are not so required in society.
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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    I believe that students studying STEM subjects at university should pay higher tuition fees than non-STEM students because, on average, STEM students go on to work in highly paid jobs so are more likely to pay back student loans. Students who want to study non-STEM subjects like Media Studies, Art, Music, History, etc. should still be allowed to study those subjects, because education is vital, and people are entitled to study whatever they want. But these subjects, on average, tend to lead to lower-paid employment and often even minimum-wage work. So students end up with ridiculous debt that they can't afford to pay back over their working lives.Tuition fees for STEM students should be £9,000 a year. For non-STEM students: about £3,000 a year. STEM students get better teaching facilities and debt that they can pay back in full when they start work. Non-STEM students are left with much less debt which they might also be able to pay back in full when they go into lower-paid work. Both sides win... 😃
    The non-STEM students should face the consequences of their education choices and shouldn't rely on people who have made better choices with regards to employment. Why on earth should a Maths student pay more when the course is cheap to fund? He/she is already doing a harder degree in the first place.
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    (Original post by GradeA*UnderA)
    The non-STEM students should face the consequences of their education choices and shouldn't rely on people who have made better choices with regards to employment. Why on earth should a Maths student pay more when the course is cheap to fund? He/she is already doing a harder degree in the first place.
    Exactly. If anything STEM degrees should be cheaper as they give back to society far greater then the majority of other degrees. This is both through taxes (which I sure they will be paying in much greater sums then their non-stem counterparts) or through research. People taking stem subjects are going to be an asset to the country and a valuable resource, I mean who do you think are the pillars of the modern world? Doctors, engineers, mathematicians or artists and actors. When it comes down to it we NEED those who do a stem degree but we don't need many of the other degrees that are on offer.


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    (Original post by lifeistoff)
    I think this is a crazy idea. If fees for non-STEM courses were to be kept lower more people may opt for these courses purely down to the finance of it. Therefore, there would be more graduates with degrees that do not necessarily lead to career progression (unlike many STEM courses that lead to highly skilled careers) thus increasing the amount of people looking for jobs. The STEM industry would possibly hit a low in employment as people are dissuaded from the courses as it may be financially impossible for them to fund it. STEM careers are often vital for the world to function (engineers, biologists, plant scientists) whereas subjects such as history and sociology are not so required in society.
    Do you really think that STEM students would opt for non-STEM degrees if they were cheaper?! Well, I'm sorry but they're clearly not as passionate about STEM as they think if higher tuition fees force them to study Arts-based subjects instead. I don't think most STEM students are as weak-minded as that!

    Another thing: the majority of STEM students come from wealthy and middle class backgrounds, so high tuition fee costs are not as big a deal for them. They could always get their parents to fund their degrees if they need it.
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    (Original post by GradeA*UnderA)
    The non-STEM students should face the consequences of their education choices and shouldn't rely on people who have made better choices with regards to employment. Why on earth should a Maths student pay more when the course is cheap to fund? He/she is already doing a harder degree in the first place.
    I agree with this so much! STEM courses are already pretty gruelling and require a lot of hard work and often placements as opposed to many non-STEM degrees so I don't see why we should pay more if we're doing far more contact hours than others. If you were to divide the £9,000 by the number of lectures in a year, they'd be 'paying' more anyway as they do fewer hours.

    Some English students have 8 hour weeks whereas my course (which is a STEM one) has at least 18 hours a week, often 29 as well as 562 hours of placement.
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    (Original post by Failingstudent98)
    Exactly. If anything STEM degrees should be cheaper as they give back to society far greater then the majority of other degrees. This is both through taxes (which I sure they will be paying in much greater sums then their non-stem counterparts) or through research. People taking stem subjects are going to be an asset to the country and a valuable resource, I mean who do you think are the pillars of the modern world? Doctors, engineers, mathematicians or artists and actors. When it comes down to it we NEED those who do a stem degree but we don't need many of the other degrees that are on offer.


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    Yes, they do give a lot back to society, but it doesn't mean that they should be subsidised for that! Life isn't fair, and it doesn't owe anybody anything.
    So you come out of uni with 40k debt? Most STEMmers will easily pay that off during their careers, and if they haven't been lucky enough to land a decent paying job, well the debt will get written off eventually...
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    Id just like to add that engineering I only respect mathematics, philosophy and physics students as they are the ones who actually learn something more pure... I study enigineering so I am studying technology, but I never hold myself in a higher light or anything. I would if I was studying mathematics though!

    But on the flip side of the coin, we also must appreciate people who follow their interests by studying non stem degrees, it is certainly a brave choice to study subjects like "Media studies"...(since everyone is bashing it on here :P), it shows they are not following the herd and doing what they want..many people in stem really dont have a passion for it. go for what ur passionate about!!!

    thirdly, I dont believe any degree is useless..its what YOU get out of the degree that matters.
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    The whole STEM vs non STEM debate is useless, it should be mathematicians, philosophers and physicists vs. everyone else :P

    STEM students are not smarter than or special or any better than other students, STEM students may have a higher marginal revenue product than those of others and technology is critical to mankind, but so is a lot of social science and other fields, some of the dumbest people Ive met are in my engineering course. This is a stupid debate and unless your studying mathematics philosophy or physics you will never have even the slightest idea of the nature of reality of our existence and thus you are an insect anyway.
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    That's just simply not true. I personally know people who are not recieving enough loan to cover their accommodation and living expenses
    Sure, but that's not fees, which this discussion is about. Accommodation and living expenses are obviously independent of course studied.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Have fun:
    http://university.which.co.uk/contac...omparison-tool

    However, as noted in the tool, contact hours is only part of the equation. Independent study is extremely important too.

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    It's unfortunate that there's such a small selection of universities but that holds far more weight than anything I was able to find. But as you say contact hours are not the be all, end all.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Sure, but that's not fees, which this discussion is about. Accommodation and living expenses are obviously independent of course studied.
    Thing is you can't really have a discussion about going to university if you don't consider everything related to it. You said:

    Everyone is eligible for loans to cover costs. Noone can not afford the fees.
    I'll ignore all the cases where this isn't true because they don't tend to be normal scenarios. So we will pretend that 100% of people can get teh £9000 per year funding for their course. Does that mean 100% of people have the option to go to University? No, of coruse not. You might be guarnateed the course fees but if you can't afford accommodation it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. This is precisely the point I was making with my original post.

    Of course in the context of student loans the idea of being able to pay your fee or not disappears since most people won't be paying it back until after they graduate and have an earning behind them. But the point still stands about it being a deterrent. Someone from a poorer background wants to do a STEM degree but worries about the higher amount of money they're going to have to pay back. Especially knowing you are in a poor financial situation already. Factor in how it's often young people making the decision and you wind up with people thinking they really can't afford to go to Uni.

    I totally understand what you're saying and my original post wasn't entirely clear. I think when I wrote it I was probably mixing course fees and loan into one bundle. But my points still stand. There's no justification for charging more for a STEM degree.
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    (Original post by Acsel)
    So we will pretend that 100% of people can get teh £9000 per year funding for their course. Does that mean 100% of people have the option to go to University? No, of coruse not. You might be guarnateed the course fees but if you can't afford accommodation it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. This is precisely the point I was making with my original post.
    But that's the case now. It's totally independent of whether fees go up or we see bigger differentials between different subjects.*

    The "people from poorer backgrounds will get put off by the loans" argument was made all the time before the jump to 9k. And it's been shown to be wrong - more people from poor backgrounds have been going to uni since.
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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    Do you really think that STEM students would opt for non-STEM degrees if they were cheaper?! Well, I'm sorry but they're clearly not as passionate about STEM as they think if higher tuition fees force them to study Arts-based subjects instead. I don't think most STEM students are as weak-minded as that!

    Another thing: the majority of STEM students come from wealthy and middle class backgrounds, so high tuition fee costs are not as big a deal for them. They could always get their parents to fund their degrees if they need it.
    Of course high tuition fees are a big deal, I guess you could say I'm middle class but I've been working since I was 14 and my parents are seriously unhappy that I will be quitting my job once I start uni- they left school at 16 and went into full time work, moving out at 18. They won't help pay for my degree and increases the fees would make the decision so much more tougher as I have to use loans for everything. I don't know if I could cope with more then then 37,000+ fees plus maintenance loan that it currently costs. (I'm applying for medicine so you pay 4 years and currently the NHS will pay the 5th). It gets to a point and the debt just becomes too great.


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    (Original post by Lh030396)
    I believe that students studying STEM subjects at university should pay higher tuition fees than non-STEM students because, on average, STEM students go on to work in highly paid jobs so are more likely to pay back student loans. Students who want to study non-STEM subjects like Media Studies, Art, Music, History, etc. should still be allowed to study those subjects, because education is vital, and people are entitled to study whatever they want. But these subjects, on average, tend to lead to lower-paid employment and often even minimum-wage work. So students end up with ridiculous debt that they can't afford to pay back over their working lives.Tuition fees for STEM students should be £9,000 a year. For non-STEM students: about £3,000 a year. STEM students get better teaching facilities and debt that they can pay back in full when they start work. Non-STEM students are left with much less debt which they might also be able to pay back in full when they go into lower-paid work. Both sides win... 😃
    STEM students pay more in tax because they earn more
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    Yeah, I guess they could, considering they'll most likely go into higher earning careers, and at least for science degrees as I bet labs and science equipment doesn't come cheap.
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    (Original post by ollie1024)
    Yeah, I guess they could, considering they'll most likely go into higher earning careers, and at least for science degrees as I bet labs and science equipment doesn't come cheap.
    Fair enough but they shouldn't be punished because they made a good financial decision, part of the attraction to stem subjects are their good job prospects - you shouldn't then be charged more because you made a good life choice. And yes labs don't come cheap however those who do stem degrees will pay more taxes over there lifetime which makes up for that.


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    richardhello What is your view on this?
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    STEM student here. Pretty much every job I would like wants a minimum masters level degree, but PhD is preferred. I'll be leaving uni with a minimum of £44k tuition fee debt, which is likely to be more since my fees will go up if the government allows it. Factor in my maintenance loan and that number goes up to just over £74k if nothing changed (which it 100% will), realistically I'll owe about £80k which is a lot more than a lot of non-STEM students.
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    (Original post by Failingstudent98)
    Fair enough but they shouldn't be punished because they made a good financial decision, part of the attraction to stem subjects are their good job prospects - you shouldn't then be charged more because you made a good life choice. And yes labs don't come cheap however those who do stem degrees will pay more taxes over there lifetime which makes up for that.


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    Its not really a punishment is it, if they earn more they have the ability to put back more into what gave them their success. Plus it's not about them making a good life choice, a history student may make a good choice for them. And those taxes aren't going direct to universities, whereas tuition is.
 
 
 
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