The new Jews on the block Watch

Poll: Are Muslims the "new Jews of Europe"?
Yes (46)
36.51%
No (74)
58.73%
Don't know (6)
4.76%
jacketpotato
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#81
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#81
(Original post by urbandervish)
Because they have big noses :rolleyes: wtf. Why? Why don't you learn anything about history? Didn't you know that Muslims and Jews were persecuted in the same manner? that thousands died and perished in the same way? that many were demonised and seen as either the Anti~Christ or viewed as less than dogs? why should I be spoon~feeding you everything? Open your eyes for once for goodness sake!
I know plenty about history, I can assure you. This paragraph is totally and utterly irrelevant to what I said, "you have not explained why this amounts to a deliberate persecution of Muslims" regarding Iraq and Kosovo. The relative persecution of Muslims and Jews throughout history is utterly and totally irrelevant both to what you were arguing regarding Iraq and Kosovo; and to the context of the topic which is a comparison between Muslims and the position of Jews around the time of WW2.

You still have not explained how atrocities committed in Iraq/Kosovo were a result of persecution directed towards Muslims, until you do this you have no justification in using those two places as examples.

I don't think you've a clear grasp of what's been explained so, I'll just answer this question. I will indeed... I'll relegate this to a thread title, thanks for the inspiration.

Question for you, why can't you quote properly? What's with the font title in my quotes are you some school boy having a laugh? From now on, don't take the piss, if you do, then don't be surprised that I didn't answer your post
The font tags appeared because it came up in the quote brackets when I clicked the quote button.
Perhaps if you concentrated more on actually engaging with the issues, and less on personal insults and on irrelevant emotional anecdotes, then you would be more convincing.
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urbandervish
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#82
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#82
(Original post by jacketpotato)
I know plenty about history, I can assure you. This paragraph is totally and utterly irrelevant to what I said, "you have not explained why this amounts to a deliberate persecution of Muslims" regarding Iraq and Kosovo.



Right!


(Original post by jacketpotato)
The relative persecution of Muslims and Jews throughout history is utterly and totally irrelevant both to what you were arguing regarding Iraq and Kosovo; and to the context of the topic which is a comparison between Muslims and the position of Jews around the time of WW2.

Okay!

(Original post by jacketpotato)
You still have not explained how atrocities committed in Iraq/Kosovo were a result of persecution directed towards Muslims, until you do this you have no justification in using those two places as examples.
I see!



(Original post by jacketpotato)
Perhaps if you concentrated more on actually engaging with the issues,
Fine! :rolleyes:
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jacketpotato
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#83
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#83
You STILL haven't explained or justified any of the points you have made.

Not a thing on how the UN were guilty of, in your own words, a "crime against humanity" in Kosovo - your first post.

Not a thing on how Iraq is an example of "Muslims being treated like second class citizens", other than a load of emotional rubbish about how awful it is - your second post

Not a thing to explain why the historical persecution of Muslims is relevant to looking at how Muslims are treated today - your third post.

Your so called "biggest argument", regarding "the media portrayal of Muslims in Britain & Europe morethan anything, there are many striking similarities" is also totally unexplained.

If you can't/won't justify points with reasoned argument, don't make them.
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urbandervish
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#84
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#84
(Original post by jacketpotato)
You STILL haven't explained or justified any of the points you have made.

Not a thing on how the UN were guilty of, in your own words, a "crime against humanity" in Kosovo - your first post.


Where? Please produce the relevant text...


(Original post by jacketpotato)
Not a thing on how Iraq is an example of "Muslims being treated like second class citizens", other than a load of emotional rubbish about how awful it is - your second post

Where? Please bring up the relevant post... Indeed, one example out of many; MPs compare Gaza to Warsaw ghetto Note: Oona King is not a Muslim, I stand by my claim that many independent observers make such [official] claims, not Muslims.

(Original post by jacketpotato)
Not a thing to explain why the historical persecution of Muslims is relevant to looking at how Muslims are treated today - your third post.
By just reading some of the comments on this thread ~ it's okay to mention Jewish persecution historically? Why can't you simply understand that such persecution [whether Jewish or Muslim] is rooted deep in history. So, what you now seem to be claiming is that the Nazis just woke up one morning and decided to exterminate over six million people? In other words, their prejudices and hatred toward the Jews was spawned overnight? really?


(Original post by jacketpotato)
Your so called "biggest argument", regarding "the media portrayal of Muslims in Britain & Europe morethan anything, there are many striking similarities" is also totally unexplained.
(Original post by jacketpotato)
If you can't/won't justify points with reasoned argument, don't make them.
If you've read any of the posts on here, you would've noticed that i'd already given a brief outline in my "first post."

There are quite a lot of parallels as to how our media is demonising Muslims today. See how the rabidly anti~Semitic newspaper Der Sturmer [owned by the Nazi Julius Streicher] portrayed heinous caricatures of generic Hasidic Jews with lit bomb fuses poking out of their long coats ... a rapacious fiend out to take over Germany & Europe, pitted agaisnt "western values." Der Ewige Jude ~ 'The Eternal Jew,' a pseudo~documentary anti~Semitic Nazi propaganda
So, what we've just observed in your commentary is nothing morethan an attempt to obfuscate the facts by attributing things I never said. You've simply lied and and have tried to play a very sneaky game of 'smoke and mirrors,' by juxtaposing my quotes with other words [I don't think I've even mentioned "Kosovo" in any of my posts on this thread] ... all of that simply adds up to nothing but bias and a big :?: over your credibility.

Such 'cleverness' isn't the first time I've come across this kind of propaganda on this thread either...
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jacketpotato
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#85
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#85
All the quotes in "..." were word for word quotes of what you said. Re-read your posts on page4. If in doubt, ctrl+f.

(Original post by urbandervish)
By just reading some of the comments on this thread ~ it's okay to mention Jewish persecution historically? Why can't you simply understand that such persecution [whether Jewish or Muslim] is rooted deep in history. So, what you now seem to be claiming is that the Nazis just woke up one morning and decided to exterminate over six million people? In other words, their prejudices and hatred toward the Jews was spawned overnight? really?
The historical persecution of different ethnic groups is not the topic. Those people who like to refer to X as 'the new Jews of Europe' are making a comparison relative how the Jews were treated around the time of the second world war, they are not going back by a number of centuries. If you want to discuss the historical persecution of Muslims, start another topic.

You still haven't provided any justification for your analysis of the Iraq war or for your analysis of the events following the break-up of Yugoslavia.

As for your mystery argument about how Muslims are portrayed in the media, I certainly can't find any justification for it in this thread no matter how hard I read into your posts. Now would be a good time to back that point up.

(Original post by urbandervish)
I don't think I've even mentioned "Kosovo" in any of my posts on this thread
When I mentioned Kosovo I was talking about the Bosnian war and the genocide at Srebenica. This would have been obvious if you had any knowledge of these events, and should have been obvious from the fact that it was in direct reply to your comments regarding Srebenica.
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Kickflip
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#86
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#86
The western press is almost completely in zionist hands, and it is they who are demonising Islam. Look into any of the anti Islam stories and there will be a jewish zionist at the centre of it, the mohammed cartoons were published by a jewish editor of a Danish newspaper. The Fitna movie was made by a jewish guy who worked for the Israeli embassy and visted Israel at least 50 times. It is very highly likely 'Fitna' was born at the Israeli foreign office in fact. Everywhere you look in European Islamophobia you ALWAYS find a zionist producing it. It's is their Leit Motif. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordan, Lebenon...all the Muslim countries are Israel's enemies. Remember that.
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Poops
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Kickflip)
The western press is almost completely in zionist hands, and it is they who are demonising Islam. Look into any of the anti Islam stories and there will be a jewish zionist at the centre of it, the mohammed cartoons were published by a jewish editor of a Danish newspaper. The Fitna movie was made by a jewish guy who worked for the Israeli embassy and visted Israel at least 50 times. It is very highly likely 'Fitna' was born at the Israeli foreign office in fact. Everywhere you look in European Islamophobia you ALWAYS find a zionist producing it. It's is their Leit Motif. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordan, Lebenon...all the Muslim countries are Israel's enemies. Remember that.
Thus we must conclude that Muslims are now the new Jews on the block...
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UniOfLife
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Kickflip)
The western press is almost completely in zionist hands, and it is they who are demonising Islam. Look into any of the anti Islam stories and there will be a jewish zionist at the centre of it, the mohammed cartoons were published by a jewish editor of a Danish newspaper. The Fitna movie was made by a jewish guy who worked for the Israeli embassy and visted Israel at least 50 times. It is very highly likely 'Fitna' was born at the Israeli foreign office in fact. Everywhere you look in European Islamophobia you ALWAYS find a zionist producing it. It's is their Leit Motif. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordan, Lebenon...all the Muslim countries are Israel's enemies. Remember that.
Wow you're paranoid. But, to be fair, you're probably right. You know why? Because people like you define others as Zionist at whim. So even they had no connection to Zionism before the moment they do something that you and your ilk perceive to be anti-Muslim or worse pro-Israel, wham, they're a Zionist. Hence everything like this is done by Zionists.

Now, we all know where this stems from. What you're essentially claiming is that there is a giant network of people conspiring to control everything. We've heard that before. For centuries it was the Jews, now it's the "Zionists". I wonder if there could be any connection. Could it be that old anti-Semitic lies have been recycled and now conveniently spoken of in terms of "Zionists"?

Anyway, your turn to come back and tell me either (or both) that not all Jews are Zionists or that "some of my best friends are Jewish". The former is true but irrelevant since you clearly mean to imply a Jewish conspiracy even if it doesn't involve all the Jews and even if it involves some non-Jews. The latter I won't believe and is the standard "get out of jail free card" on racism charges.
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she
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#89
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#89
(Original post by Kickflip)
The western press is almost completely in zionist hands, and it is they who are demonising Islam. Look into any of the anti Islam stories and there will be a jewish zionist at the centre of it, the mohammed cartoons were published by a jewish editor of a Danish newspaper. The Fitna movie was made by a jewish guy who worked for the Israeli embassy and visted Israel at least 50 times. It is very highly likely 'Fitna' was born at the Israeli foreign office in fact. Everywhere you look in European Islamophobia you ALWAYS find a zionist producing it. It's is their Leit Motif. Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Jordan, Lebenon...all the Muslim countries are Israel's enemies. Remember that.
And much of this anti Jewish propaganda that you are spouting comes from the media withing Islamic countries. If you just look at the editors or even the origin of the country you can see it, the Guardian is owned by an Arab man for example. Made up Palestinian news gets into international mainstream media. I'm only being half sarcastic here.
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she
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#90
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#90
Deaths in Kosovo were due to a war between different ethnic groups within the country. Not only Muslims died and Muslim deaths weren't due to some European effort to exterminate them, they were due to an inter ethnic war.
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urbandervish
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#91
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#91
(Original post by jacketpotato)
All the quotes in "..." were word for word quotes of what you said. Re-read your posts on page4. If in doubt, ctrl+f.
But why have you juxtaposed "..." alongside other words to make one sentence for things I never said; as if to put words into my mouth? as evidenced in your posts above, those who can't see this charade are either deluded or have decided to give you support because in the end, all this subject's proving to be is a simple matter of bias and prejudice ... your posts have proved this.


(Original post by jacketpotato)
The historical persecution of different ethnic groups is not the topic. Those people who like to refer to X as 'the new Jews of Europe' are making a comparison relative how the Jews were treated around the time of the second world war, they are not going back by a number of centuries. If you want to discuss the historical persecution of Muslims, start another topic.
So there's no reason to discuss Jewish persecution historically in order to understand current prejudices? Pathetic!



(Original post by jacketpotato)
You still haven't provided any justification for your analysis of the Iraq war or for your analysis of the events following the break-up of Yugoslavia.
I must say that I've come across some moronic ways to arguing a case but I've never seen anything like this before ... I never mentioned the war in Iraq, I discussed the 10 years of sanctions which were described by international observers as a "mass genocide" while the world looked on and ignored it.



(Original post by jacketpotato)
As for your mystery argument about how Muslims are portrayed in the media, I certainly can't find any justification for it in this thread no matter how hard I read into your posts. Now would be a good time to back that point up.
I've already stated that I'd be posting a thread on this subject. You've totally ignored my previous comments and have instead attempted to create a scenario where it seems that I've avoided answering your questions! Indeed, how utterly destitute and pathetic can one be to stoop so low as this? ... and you think you're playing Devil's Advocate?

(Original post by jacketpotato)
When I mentioned Kosovo I was talking about the Bosnian war and the genocide at Srebenica. This would have been obvious if you had any knowledge of these events, and should have been obvious from the fact that it was in direct reply to your comments regarding Srebenica.
wtf. are you talking about? Kosovo and Bosnia are not the same. Infact, you've already got some ^ thinking the way you are ~ bent!
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jacketpotato
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#92
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#92
You still haven't bothered to justify any of the points you have made. There isn't much more I can say really. If you want to actually convince anybody, you need to justify your case, not just throw around a load of nonsensical ranting.
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urbandervish
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#93
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(Original post by jacketpotato)
You still haven't bothered to justify any of the points you have made. There isn't much more I can say really. If you want to actually convince anybody, you need to justify your case, not just throw around a load of nonsensical ranting.
I refer to an earlier post;

(Original post by jacketpotato)
It is totally ridiculous to compare the situation Muslims are in to that of the Jews in the 20th century.
Who said the situation was exactly the same? There are some parallels [my biggest argument is actually with the media portrayal of Muslims in Britain & Europe morethan anything, there are many striking similarities].


So, according to you there was no "genocide" or "massacre" in Bosnia? The deaths of 80,000 civilians who happened to be Muslim was not a tragic loss of innocent life? It was simply all about "territory" as you seem to have so wonderfully buttered up.

So the haunting images of hundreds of emaciated men stood behind barbed wire fencing [in "Quarantine camps"] reminds you of nothing but the word "territory"? Absolutely smashing!

Besides, are there no other examples from around the world where Muslims are being treated like second class citizens? How have some senior officials [including the UN] reacted to the way that some of these people have been treated? What sort of language do they use? What chapter in history do they sometimes refer to when they make such parallels? Don't blame Muslims for moaning all the time, a lot of these claims seem to be coming from independent observers mostly fromUN.

Again, to remind you and others of another modern day genocide. The 10 years of sanctions against Iraq "Perhaps the toughest, most comprehensive sanctions in history." Over half a million children died, [UNICEF] ... former United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator [UN Assistant Secretary General] Denis Halliday resigned in protest after 34 years with the UN; "I am resigning, because the policy of economic sanctions is destroying an entire society. Five thousand children are dying every month. I don't want to administer a programme that satisfies the definition of genocide" also,"If you include adults, the figure is now almost certainly well over a million." His successor ~ Hans von Sponeck, [30 years service] also resigned in disgust for the same reasons, citing the sanctions a "true human tragedy." and, "a deliberate strangulation." Jutta Burghardt, former head of the World Food Programme in Iraq, also resigned stating; "I could no longer tolerate what was being done to the Iraqi people."

What are all these ^ commontaters saying? That it was all about "territory"? Here's somebody who thinks along those lines, "We think the price is worth it." Madeleine Albright former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations on the genocide of half a million Iraqi children. Blame Saddam...
You claim that I was referring to "Kosovo" and the "Iraq War." Where? Sanctions in Iraq and Bosnia?
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jacketpotato
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#94
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#94
You explicitly referred to events (Srebenica) from the Kosovo crisis.
It is pedantic in the extreme to say that you were talking about sanctions imposed in the wake of the first gulf war, but not about the Iraq war.

As for whether that wall of text backs up any of your points; it clearly does not. All you have done is post a load of stuff about how awful events following the break-up of Yugoslavia were and how bad the effects of the sanctions against Iraq were.
What you have not done is demonstrate how any of this equates to a bias against Muslims. The events in Bosnia were much more complex than some example of racism, and as for the sanctions imposed on Iraq after the first gulf war, Saddam had just invaded Kuwait for goodness sake. Please explain why you think that these examples demonstrate a Western anti-Muslim bias.
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Erradhadh
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#95
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(Original post by jacketpotato)
You explicitly referred to events (Srebenica) from the Kosovo crisis.
It is pedantic in the extreme to say that you were talking about sanctions imposed in the wake of the first gulf war, but not about the Iraq war.

As for whether that wall of text backs up any of your points; it clearly does not. All you have done is post a load of stuff about how awful events following the break-up of Yugoslavia were and how bad the effects of the sanctions against Iraq were.
What you have not done is demonstrate how any of this equates to a bias against Muslims. The events in Bosnia were much more complex than some example of racism, and as for the sanctions imposed on Iraq after the first gulf war, Saddam had just invaded Kuwait for goodness sake. Please explain why you think that these examples demonstrate a Western anti-Muslim bias.
I think the person with whom you are arguing has a poor grasp on the Serbia/Kosovo crisis, or events in Bosnia. S/he seems to ignore the existence of interethnic conflicts particular to the region, and not extending to Europe as a continent.

Furthermore, I would be willing to say that Europeans, as a whole, have no bias against the Muslim individual, but rather fear the Islamic ideaology that the individual may follow. Thus, Islamophobia, unlike any previous Jewish bias, is due to the often literal interpretation of the Koran, while Jewish interpretation of the Torah often retains standards of modern society.
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urbandervish
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#96
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#96
(Original post by Erradhadh)
I think the person with whom you are arguing has a poor grasp on the Serbia/Kosovo crisis, or events in Bosnia. S/he seems to ignore the existence of interethnic conflicts particular to the region, and not extending to Europe as a continent.
Seems you don't understand International Law ... do you not see any difference between an Internal Conflict and a war between Nation States?

Indeed, there are some comparisons; for example, in both conflicts the agressor was Milosevic [whose trial was being held at The Hague for war crimes in Bosnia, Kosovo and in Croatia. Remember "ethnic cleansing"? it doesn't fall short of being labeled as a Nazi style system of "ethnic purity" even if the context be different], but to say Kosovo and Bosnia are the same conflict is simply being stupid and ignorant of the facts.

So who then, was out to disenfranchise a largely autonomous province of Kosovo that lead to Yugoslavia’s dismemberment? Who started the genocide and ethnic cleansing in Kosova and Bosnia and the conflicts in Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia? the counter~action for whatever past historical reasons ["territory"] had been simply put on hold since the Second World War, the 'justification' for the conflict came with a widespread hatred and demonisation of Muslims parallel to Jew hatred [antisemitism] consisting of re~cycled medieval Christian Islamophobic motifs similar to Judeophobic standard Nazi propaganda.

Indeed, it was the likes of Lady Thatcher the Clinton administration and the International community including NATO who claimed the Serbian regime were "Nazis" and "fascists" and their leader in the following way; "We are not dealing with some minor thug, but with a truly monstrous evil."

Ironically, it was an Israeli foreign minister who opposed Nato's war in Kosovo, inveighing against "Islamic terror" in Kosovo. [sixth paragraph].

Again, I'm not attempting to make any close comparison between the holocaust and the recent genocides and ethnic cleansing in the former yugoslav republic, this would be absolutely callous to say the least ... history in that region is dotted with atrocities committed by all sides. However, modern history shows a different picture.
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Agent Smith
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#97
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#97
(Original post by 2026)
Shahid Malik, who was appointed as a minister by Gordon Brown last summer, said it has become legitimate to target Muslims in the media and society at large in a way that would be unacceptable for any other minority, and that many Muslims feel targeted like "the Jews of Europe". Malik warned that many British Muslims feel like "aliens in their own country".

"I think most people would agree that if you ask Muslims today what do they feel like, they feel like the Jews of Europe," he said. "I don't mean to equate that with the Holocaust but in the way that it was legitimate almost – and still is in some parts – to target Jews, many Muslims would say that we feel the exact same way. Somehow there's a message out there that it's OK to target people as long as it's Muslims. And you don't have to worry about the facts, and people will turn a blind eye."

Where do you stand on this issue? Do you agree that Islamophobia is more likely to be tolerated than other forms of bigotry? If so, who is responsible? Is it possible to draw a clear line between attacking Muslims per se, and criticising the ideology itself?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...pe-859978.html
First off, kudos to Malik for saying right from the off that he wasn't trying to equate it with the Holocaust. People say this sort of thing from time to time, and I think what happens is that they know it's nothing of that magnitude, so they assume their audience will know, so they don't explicitly say it. Result: Everyone gets the idea that they [I]are comparing the plight of British Muslims now with that of German Jews then, and a furore ensues.

Things like this do need to be said, because the parallels are there, but they also need to be qualified, because last time I checked the government wasn't gassing Muslims by the million. So yeah. Hat off to Shahid Malik.

So. He's tactful; is he actually right? I think so, at least partly. Muslims are pretty much fair game for social discrimination, in a way that they weren't prior to September 11. They used to be lumped in with anyone else dark-skinned who ran a corner shop, and the objection was that of "taking our jobs". But more people object to being blown up than to being made redundant, so now Muslims have come to stand for terrorism the social attitude has both hardened and become more widespread.

To be fair, official channels do their best to combat this - indeed, so much so that certain people see it as "bending over backwards", and it becomes self-defeating. But the fact remains that in popular culture, suspicion of Muslims has become the norm. I've just ruled out a dirty great government conspiracy, so what's the explanation?

Possibly it's as simple as guilt by association. Human nature is not always nice; the grim truth may be that, rather than the State being out to get them, Muslims are suffering the same thing ethnic Germans suffered at the hands of the newly-liberated Polish and Czechoslovak people after the war - persecution of the innocent many for the sins of an infamous few. Moreover, that few are already safely dead, so can't be punished more. The desire for vengeance nevertheless demands satisfaction, so Muslims in general take the flak as proxies or scapegoats for Muslim terrorists.

The "message" Malik mentions is very real, but it's not coming from any official source. That would in a way be easier, because then you could identify it and haul those responsible up before a judge. It's become embedded in society from the bottom up, not the top down; and the government has been slow to realise just how widespread and serious it has been allowed to become.
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