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Can TV licencing really tell if you are receiving broadcasts? watch

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    (Original post by TommyWannabe)
    Are you calling me ignorant or the people who have decided to ignore any evidence which I have provided?

    Definately want to clear that up to decide if I need to return fire
    Other people.
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    (Original post by Misogynist)
    Other people.
    Ah good. *packs away machine gun*

    I havn't presented any bias at all in this thread, instead my arguments have only been countered by people trying to present opinion as fact. NOTHING is more annoying. Add in all the insults and we're just about there. Never mind anyway. They can think what they want.
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    had the tv licence people round today just put the antenna under the bed and all they saw was my tv and my 360 took them about 30 seconds before they said it was fine and said they'd cross my off the list lol:woo:
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    (Original post by Profesh)
    This may be of interest:


    Television and radio transmitters broadcast at a frequency that is so high it is unintelligible to the human ear. Any receiving device will use a series of oscillators built into the set to reduce this frequency to something more managable. The oscillator produces a frequency which is just below the one from the transmitter. In saying that, if two frequences are mixed, the resulting frquency is the mathematical difference of the two. These oscillators in your TV are in effect mini transmitters which radiate a signal over a few hundred yards. These signals are easily picked up by detector vans. As each station needs a specific frequency, then the oscillator needs to be adjusted (tuning). It is therefore easy to detect which station or channel you are watching or listening, by determinig which frequency that your set's oscillator is producing. The detector van does this easily.


    And so on.
    Sounds like BS to me. That seems to imply that your TV needs to actually transmit a radio wave to cancel out the carrier signal. Which is nonsense. By the time the signal reaches your TV it's being carried by electrical impulses rather than EM radiation. The demodulation will be done at an electrical level. I suppose it's feasible that would give off residual EM radiation, but enough to detect? I'm pretty sure the strength of such a signal would be so minute there's no way in hell their detector vans could pick it up. Also as circuitry in TV tuners get more efficient, they will give off less EM radiation.

    Also much of this could potentially be done digitally. Which would render the whole idea useless.
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    (Original post by TommyWannabe)
    Ah good. *packs away machine gun*

    I havn't presented any bias at all in this thread, instead my arguments have only been countered by people trying to present opinion as fact. NOTHING is more annoying. Add in all the insults and we're just about there. Never mind anyway. They can think what they want.
    In fairness, you detailed the method of operation of a TV receiver (which as far as I recall no one has denied), rather than how a detector van would work realistically. I posted a couple of reasons I see them as unlikely - namely the strength of signal from the oscillator and the high density of signals if they were strong enough - and I've not seen anything to contradict those points.
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    (Original post by Craigthered)
    Disgrace that students and OAPs have to pay the same rate for a license. Infact if they did introduce a student rate alot more people would just pay for a license.
    I say no and im a student, why subsidise students when these so called students are able to go drinking a lot, buy take aways, ipods, trips away etc.

    Why them over someone getting the minumum wage and lucky to be left with £30 a week after paying rent and bills.
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    Sounds like BS to me. That seems to imply that your TV needs to actually transmit a radio wave to cancel out the carrier signal. Which is nonsense. By the time the signal reaches your TV it's being carried by electrical impulses rather than EM radiation. The demodulation will be done at an electrical level. I suppose it's feasible that would give off residual EM radiation, but enough to detect? I'm pretty sure the strength of such a signal would be so minute there's no way in hell their detector vans could pick it up. Also as circuitry in TV tuners get more efficient, they will give off less EM radiation.

    Also much of this could potentially be done digitally. Which would render the whole idea useless.
    I agree, I posted something along those lines earlier. Also I think there are regulations on the amount of EM that a device can emit, and it wouldn't be hard to shield.
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    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    I agree, I posted something along those lines earlier. Also I think there are regulations on the amount of EM that a device can emit, and it wouldn't be hard to shield.
    My electronics teacher (who is ex-MOD and expert in the field of radio) said that you can detect whether a TV is in use, not by the TV itself, but because the aerial does not only receive but sends out a small, but detectable signal back to the mast, especially if you are viewing through digital TV. By using triangulation, you can track this frequency to pinpoint to a certain accuracy where it is coming from.

    This was probably using some army technology tho, he used to design and engineer the communication equipment for tanks and data transfer on the battlefield. So, direction finding using radio was critical for pin pointing the enemy location! Apparently that is how a lot of radio detection works, by scanning not for the incoming signal, but for the outgoing signal of an antenna which is much stronger. Don't ask me about it, I am just re-gurgitating what he told me, it went straight over my head!

    But it is expensive and the TVLA are unlikely to use it. Databases and paper are much cheaper!
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    My electronics teacher (who is ex-MOD and expert in the field of radio) said that you can detect whether a TV is in use, not by the TV itself, but because the aerial does not only receive but sends out a small, but detectable signal back to the mast, especially if you are viewing through digital TV. By using triangulation, you can track this frequency to pinpoint to a certain accuracy where it is coming from.

    This was probably using some army technology tho, he used to design and engineer the communication equipment for tanks and data transfer on the battlefield. So, direction finding using radio was critical for pin pointing the enemy location! Apparently that is how a lot of radio detection works, by scanning not for the incoming signal, but for the outgoing signal of an antenna which is much stronger. Don't ask me about it, I am just re-gurgitating what he told me, it went straight over my head!

    But it is expensive and the TVLA are unlikely to use it. Databases and paper are much cheaper!
    That's something I can believe slightly more, if the oscillator can affect the aerial. I still think that solid state devices probably wouldn't (and I'm certain that digital decoders are solid state, though whether they still have analogue components I don't know) and also you still have the problem of a lot of signals in a small area, presumably all at roof/aerial height.
    At the end of the day, I don't know if it's possible, just find it unlikely, especially given the level of secrecy surrounding the technology supposedly capable of this detection. Having said that I'd have thought the military would use voltage followers to buffer the aerial! Ah well.
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    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    That's something I can believe slightly more, if the oscillator can affect the aerial. I still think that solid state devices probably wouldn't (and I'm certain that digital decoders are solid state, though whether they still have analogue components I don't know) and also you still have the problem of a lot of signals in a small area, presumably all at roof/aerial height.
    At the end of the day, I don't know if it's possible, just find it unlikely, especially given the level of secrecy surrounding the technology supposedly capable of this detection. Having said that I'd have thought the military would use voltage followers to buffer the aerial! Ah well.
    Our Military does, I don't think the Iraqi or Sudanese Army does!
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    (Original post by a_t)
    I have this program called Zattoo and it uses a live stream over the internet to let you watch terrestrial tv, no aerial or anything, can this be detected?
    Not using broadcast waves, but almost definitely through other means - especially if you're using it in halls, I'd have thought all internet usage is logged (but not necessarily monitored).
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    Our Military does, I don't think the Iraqi or Sudanese Army does!
    A voltage follower costs pennies, could knock together half a dozen for a couple of quid. On the other hand I have no idea if they'd work properly (they basically just buffer so the input signal isn't affected by whatever you're connecting it to, it's used to stop things like excessive current draw) and tbh analogue electronics is all a bit of a mystery to me, so I would guess that there's a good reason it's not that simple!
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    (Original post by CurlyBen)
    A voltage follower costs pennies, could knock together half a dozen for a couple of quid. On the other hand I have no idea if they'd work properly (they basically just buffer so the input signal isn't affected by whatever you're connecting it to, it's used to stop things like excessive current draw) and tbh analogue electronics is all a bit of a mystery to me, so I would guess that there's a good reason it's not that simple!
    Yeh it can't be that simple because it costs millions to completely hide a radio transmission, so, meh, don't know.

    You would probably use suppressors and some very clever circuitry. I'll ask my tutor tomorrow and let you know if i see him
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    Yeh it can't be that simple because it costs millions to completely hide a radio transmission, so, meh, don't know.

    You would probably use suppressors and some very clever circuitry. I'll ask my tutor tomorrow and let you know if i see him
    Ah what I was talking about would (might) stop the aerial being affected whilst receiving, but would be no good for transmission! Though hiding transmissions doesn't seem possible, just making it harder to intercept.. think it's time for bed!
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    (Original post by hollywood_swinging)
    Not using broadcast waves, but almost definitely through other means - especially if you're using it in halls, I'd have thought all internet usage is logged (but not necessarily monitored).
    however, there is a loophole which says you don't need a TV licence if the device is battery powered. Laptops are battery powered. Thus, if your watching TV on your laptop, and it isn't plugged into the mains, then you do not need a licence.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    however, there is a loophole which says you don't need a TV licence if the device is battery powered. Laptops are battery powered. Thus, if your watching TV on your laptop, and it isn't plugged into the mains, then you do not need a licence.
    Yeah, I sent an email to TV licensing about this (with our internet service providings here we have an IPTV service piped in) but received an ambiguous template email in return. I'll post it if I can find it.
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    (Original post by hollywood_swinging)
    I'll post it if I can find it.
    My question:
    Subject: Student Enquiry
    Message:
    As a student living in halls of residence, we have an IPTV service included with our internet package. While I know that this alone is NOT exempt from licensing, would using this service on a battery-powered laptop (as outlined at http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/informa...ents.jsp#link1) mean that only a valid license at the student's parents' address be required?

    Their response:
    07/11/2008

    Dear Mr *******,

    Thank you for contacting us.

    A television licence is required if a person installs or uses a television receiver at an address. The licence covers the named licensee and members of their family living together at the single place stated on the licence. Students living away from home during a period of full-time education will need their own licence. This applies to students living in Halls of Residence or in private accommodation.

    The only exception to this rule concerns the use of wholly portable television sets. If the set is powered solely by its own internal batteries, it will be covered by the licence held for the student's parents' address. However, if the set is ever used with an external power source, a separate licence will be needed.

    If your television receiving equipment is used to watch or record television services, you should buy a TV Licence at once. However, if your equipment is not used for these purposes, please let me know. I will then make sure our records are changed to show you do not need a licence for your address.

    I hope this explains the position for you.





    Is there any way to construe this other than "wholly portable television sets" refers to TV sets alone (and those that are never able to be powered by mains) and so laptops are not included in this loophole?
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    If they had proper detector vans they'd use them, not send out mass mailings to every single student in the UK.
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    (Original post by gbduo)
    My electronics teacher (who is ex-MOD and expert in the field of radio) said that you can detect whether a TV is in use, not by the TV itself, but because the aerial does not only receive but sends out a small, but detectable signal back to the mast, especially if you are viewing through digital TV. By using triangulation, you can track this frequency to pinpoint to a certain accuracy where it is coming from.

    This was probably using some army technology tho, he used to design and engineer the communication equipment for tanks and data transfer on the battlefield. So, direction finding using radio was critical for pin pointing the enemy location! Apparently that is how a lot of radio detection works, by scanning not for the incoming signal, but for the outgoing signal of an antenna which is much stronger. Don't ask me about it, I am just re-gurgitating what he told me, it went straight over my head!

    But it is expensive and the TVLA are unlikely to use it. Databases and paper are much cheaper!
    well i use an old wire hanger for an ariel.... does that mean my wardrobe will send of rays?
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    (Original post by markdr)
    No, they can't detect whether you're watching TV or not, but I don't think they claim to be able to either.
    Cathode-ray based television sets emit radiation when the picture's on, so that could be detected. But TFT television doesn't, and barely uses any power anyway, so they can't be detected.

    What's more, they're phasing out TV Licensing, soon, aren't they? Some time around when Digitization it complete, if I remember right...
 
 
 
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