Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#1001
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#1001
(Original post by L i b)
I won't win a debate by entertaining frankly unacceptable and barmy opinions. There is a limit after which the only rational tactic is befuddlement and ridicule. Consider it a modified version of the left-wingers 'No Platform' ideas which ends up being more fun for me.

Flags exist originally to symbolise armies on a battlefield. Today, outside of the shipping, they serve virtually zero practical purpose.



This is called a confirmation bias. It is when people take examples of something, entirely based on their own prejudices, to confirm what they already think.

It's why some people believe their children are more in danger of being victims of crime than they are, or why some people think Muslims are all paedophiles. None of these things need be remotely true statistically, but people with peculiar beliefs will accept them as true.
You sir/madam are a god send. I've been trying to remember the words confirmation bias.

So. Just to recap. If a person holds the views of only 30% of the population, yet claims to speak for everybody and only hang around with people of similar views. Then confirmation bias is thinking that everybody holds the same view as you?
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L i b
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#1002
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#1002
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Oh dear, ironic that you should bring up national level, the SNP don't get voted in. What does it matter? The views of the Scottish people aren't represented at "national" level anyways. Scotland does not get any say in electing government after government which impoverish thousands of Scots.
Funny then how public spending is hugely higher in Scotland, and a considerably higher number of people vote in UK general elections in Scotland than vote in Scottish Parliament elections - despite more actually being eligible to vote in the latter!

Furthermore, 91% of Scottish MPs voted against the bedroom tax which will impoverish thousands of Scottish people
Actually, the "bedroom tax" - the housing benefit size criteria for those in social housing - will disproportionately benefit Scotland. There are hundreds of thousands of people across Britain living in overcrowded social housing, whilst hundreds of thousands - around 80,000 in Scotland - are occupying housing which is too large for their needs. A rationalisation of this system is long overdue - indeed, it's always been the case for people in privately rented accommodation, yet another reason why it is inequitable.

Not a single person will be 'impoverished' by it. This is just another example of Nationalists attacking a perfectly reasonable proposal on party political grounds. Indeed, if they wanted to, they could make the reform totally meaningless in Scotland by adding to discretionary funds: it'd cost less than £50 million, a sum relatively easily scraped together. However, they won't.

Why on earth would anybody not want to give our selves the chance to decide for ourselves
You tell us. You're the one supporting an illiberal, collectivist ideology, you daft bugger.

(Original post by marcusfox)
I'm surprised that TSR considers **** to be objectionable but in your post ****'s sake appears to be fine

EDIT - I see it's filtered in mine
Hehe. No idea how that happened. Very pleased though.
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ConorWilson
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#1003
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#1003
(Original post by L i b)
If you care to check that previous posts in this thread, you'll find that your rubbish, anti-democratic argument has been thoroughly debunked.

My home village in Scotland voted 55% Tory at the last UK election. Are we likely to get a Tory majority government in Holyrood any time soon?



Every individual in Scotland has the same voting weight as every individual in England. It seems you don't like that because you're a nationalist: being equal and everything. The rest of us don't believe in one person having the same power in elections as 10.



Whatever you call Scotland, it is not a state. It is a part of one. You are a nationalist, who believes that a person's identity, culture, ethnicity or other factors should determine his civil rights and how he is governed. That is an utterly absurd ideology.

Particularly when your understanding of what a "nation" is happens to be entirely arbitrary and subjective, as we can see from the conflict that nationalism has caused for our neighbours in Ireland.
Yes, whilst the vote in Scotland does not have any less value than people in England. However, our views aren't represented in Westminster. It really isn't that hard to understand. This can be seen from Scotland being given governments which this country blatantly didn't vote for. You can argue that that's democracy un till your blue in the face and i'll agree, your right. We make up a fraction of the population of the UK. That is one of the reasons i'm voting yes, to give Scotland the power to decide for ourselves who we want to govern our country. Scotland is a country, even better together admit this.
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MatureStudent36
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#1004
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#1004
(Original post by Psyk)
It's worth bringing up other countries when you're using an argument that just as easily applies to them as it does to Scotland and the UK. If your argument is that Scotland should be independent because it already has it's own government, laws, etc. then the logical consequence of that is that many other countries should also break up because they also have parts with their own governments, laws, etc.

I'm sure Scotland could manage it on its own. The question is whether or not that would make people's lives better or worse. I don't think anyone believes Scotland would turn into Somalia if it was independent.
Please god no. Not other countries. Never mention other countries in this debate. I'm about to be overloaded with how I'm like South Sudan and should feel at one with Djibouti and any number of the 30 or so nations that have followed the march to Freedom. With no reference to having to get into the UN, EU, NATO, IMF and WTO.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21344264

Did we ever find out why Alex Salmond never spoke to the leaders of teh Quebec and Catalonia independence movements?
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ConorWilson
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#1005
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#1005
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
No. My point still stands. In a democracy, the minorrity sometimes don't get what they want. In this case the Minority was Labour which didn't get it. Not Scotland.

Still no response as to your stand point on the Shetlands though.
Why should we remain the minority of the UK when would could govern ourselves and decide for ourselves? Surely it's better to have a government that the majority of Scottish people vote for in every election, rather in those when our friends down south agree as well?
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MatureStudent36
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#1006
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#1006
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Yes, whilst the vote in Scotland does not have any less value than people in England. However, our views aren't represented in Westminster. It really isn't that hard to understand. This can be seen from Scotland being given governments which this country blatantly didn't vote for. You can argue that that's democracy un till your blue in the face and i'll agree, your right. We make up a fraction of the population of the UK. That is one of the reasons i'm voting yes, to give Scotland the power to decide for ourselves who we want to govern our country. Scotland is a country, even better together admit this.
Actually we do well on both counts here. We've got people in Government now and people in government when/if Labour get in.
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MatureStudent36
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#1007
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#1007
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Why should we remain the minority of the UK when would could govern ourselves and decide for ourselves? Surely it's better to have a government that the majority of Scottish people vote for in every election, rather in those when our friends down south agree as well?
The majority of the population voted labour.

But there';s nothing wrong with the concept your raising. It's just very risky and 70% of the population. like me kind of figure it would be an unnecesary risk for little return.

After all, we'll just be cast adrift (potentially) as a population of 5 Million in the EU. If you're grief whoring about Westminster, god knows how you'll feel about the Eurozone and the EU.
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ConorWilson
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#1008
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#1008
(Original post by Midlander)
Two nations with less representation in Westminster don't choose to elect separatist parties as a majority in their own national assemblies. As a result neither has pushed for a referendum on the issue-the only one which struggles to understand that its representation is proportionate to its population is Scotland. 'That's nice'.

Shame those Italians couldn't defeat the southern tyrants last Sunday eh.
We don't struggle to understand our representation is proportionate to representation, i simply feel that Scotland is better placed to make decisions about Scotland and that we should represent ourselves. We should be able to represent ourselves.
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ConorWilson
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#1009
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#1009
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
The majority of the population voted labour.

But there';s nothing wrong with the concept your raising. It's just very risky and 70% of the population. like me kind of figure it would be an unnecesary risk for little return.

After all, we'll just be cast adrift (potentially) as a population of 5 Million in the EU. If you're grief whoring about Westminster, god knows how you'll feel about the Eurozone and the EU.
We'd be the third wealthiest nation in the EU and have 25% of the EU's renewable energy. i'm sure we'll be fine. We have no views to lose in the Europe as we don't get our views represented in the UK.
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a729
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#1010
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#1010
(Original post by ConorWilson)
We'd be the third wealthiest nation in the EU and have 25% of the EU's renewable energy. i'm sure we'll be fine. We have no views to lose in the Europe as we don't get our views represented in the UK.
Not when the oil runs dry and there's no taxes from London to subsidise government spending
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MatureStudent36
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#1011
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#1011
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Why should we remain the minority of the UK when would could govern ourselves and decide for ourselves? Surely it's better to have a government that the majority of Scottish people vote for in every election, rather in those when our friends down south agree as well?
I'd rather not base my future on the results on 1 election when there's such a disparity between who we vote for at Holyrood and Westminster.

How far shall we go. I'm seeing the Borders didn't vote for the SNP, or large Area's of the central belt, or Orkney or the Shetlands.

Lets remember as well. Quite a few people voted for the SNP, but don't support seperation. Infact as about 50% of the electorate voted for them at a local level, they still can't get above 30% support on that issue. That means 20% of the elecorate voted for them even though they don't seem to support their ultimate aim.

And lets remember that it was only a 50% turnout.
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a729
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#1012
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#1012
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Why should we remain the minority of the UK when would could govern ourselves and decide for ourselves? Surely it's better to have a government that the majority of Scottish people vote for in every election, rather in those when our friends down south agree as well?
Wales is the real minority

When the friends down south help bankroll your lifestyle (FREE uni , FREE hospital parking and FREE prescriptions) when the southern friends don't have that- you sound like the person who's biting the hand that feeds them
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ConorWilson
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#1013
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#1013
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'd rather not base my future on the results on 1 election when there's such a disparity between who we vote for at Holyrood and Westminster.

How far shall we go. I'm seeing the Borders didn't vote for the SNP, or large Area's of the central belt, or Orkney or the Shetlands.

Lets remember as well. Quite a few people voted for the SNP, but don't support seperation. Infact as about 50% of the electorate voted for them at a local level, they still can't get above 30% support on that issue. That means 20% of the elecorate voted for them even though they don't seem to support their ultimate aim.
Support for independence is above 30%... but lets not get into that... Quite a few people voted for Labour but will vote for independence as well. Independence isn't about the SNP.
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MatureStudent36
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#1014
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#1014
(Original post by ConorWilson)
We'd be the third wealthiest nation in the EU and have 25% of the EU's renewable energy. i'm sure we'll be fine. We have no views to lose in the Europe as we don't get our views represented in the UK.
I'll wait for Lib to answer this one as he'll have the facts and figures.

At the moment we live in the second wealthiest nation in the EU (measure by PPP) and the 3rd wealthiest in the EU (By nominal GDP)

That's likely to drop significantly. You are aware that we receive the bulk of the investment for the UKs renewable energy programme. And remember they need subsidising. Who's paying the subsidy after we leave? The SNP seem to think that the Rest Of the UK will qiuite happily subsidise our renewables (and ship building) industry once we've left. It's a two way street we're on.

Check out the dfintion of the word Synergy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy
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ConorWilson
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#1015
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#1015
(Original post by a729)
Wales is the real minority

When the friends down south help bankroll your lifestyle (FREE uni , FREE hospital parking and FREE prescriptions) when the southern friends don't have that- you sound like the person who's biting the hand that feeds them
Oh my...Someone should educate themselves before they speak. Scottish taxes have been funding everything from the jubilee celebrations to the London sewer system. All of the things you mention comes from the Scottish parliament, Scotland contributes 9.9% of total UK taxes and recieves 9.4% of total UK spending. Westminister gave us none of these things, and they certainly aren't paying for them.
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Midlander
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#1016
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#1016
(Original post by ConorWilson)
We don't struggle to understand our representation is proportionate to representation, i simply feel that Scotland is better placed to make decisions about Scotland and that we should represent ourselves. We should be able to represent ourselves.
What isn't covered by devolution though? That is what you have a Scottish Government specifically there to do. England has no equivalent and so it could be argued has less control over its own governance.
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Midlander
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#1017
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#1017
I'd also like to hear Scots' thoughts on the SNP holding onto the hundreds of millions of pounds in extra money provided by the UK government specifically for rejuvenating the Scottish economy and going into all sorts of development projects. Why would they possibly want to do this?
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L i b
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#1018
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#1018
(Original post by ConorWilson)
i simply feel that Scotland is better placed to make decisions about Scotland and that we should represent ourselves. We should be able to represent ourselves.
We already represent ourselves in a democracy. As for "Scotland is better placed..." that's simply rhetoric without the slightest bit of justification. I could as easily say substitute that with any group, be it Britons, Strathclyde people or Glaswegians of Asian origin.
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ConorWilson
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#1019
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#1019
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'll wait for Lib to answer this one as he'll have the facts and figures.

At the moment we live in the second wealthiest nation in the EU (measure by PPP) and the 3rd wealthiest in the EU (By nominal GDP)

That's likely to drop significantly. You are aware that we receive the bulk of the investment for the UKs renewable energy programme. And remember they need subsidising. Who's paying the subsidy after we leave? The SNP seem to think that the Rest Of the UK will qiuite happily subsidise our renewables (and ship building) industry once we've left. It's a two way street we're on.

Check out the dfintion of the word Synergy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy
Giving we won't be spending billions on trident missiles...

Also "As David Kennedy, UK Government adviser and chief executive of the Independent Committee On Climate Change, said on 24 June 2012: “I don’t think it’s the case that we’re just investing in Scotland at the moment because it is part of the UK. My angle is whether you can imagine"
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a729
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#1020
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(Original post by ConorWilson)
Oh my...Someone should educate themselves before they speak. Scottish taxes have been funding everything from the jubilee celebrations to the London sewer system. All of the things you mention comes from the Scottish parliament, Scotland contributes 9.9% of total UK taxes and recieves 9.4% of total UK spending. Westminister gave us none of these things, and they certainly aren't paying for them.

Scotland funds London?! It's not April fool's day up in the highlands yet, is it?!
Say what? London alone is responsible for 20% of the total UK GDP and effectively subsidises the UK through taxes to the tune of £20Billion a year!

London's economy and population dwarfs Scotland's!
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