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    (Original post by tsr1269)


    Comment on Sunday's infographic by the IDF propaganda machine: 87 Rocket Attacks is the lowest out of the 13 day operation. The norm is around 130 attacks per day.

    Does this mean that the Israeli operation is succeeding?

    No doubt that it would be portrayed to the gullible and fear stricken Israeli public in that manner but what is interesting is the omission of the 13 Israeli deaths.


    I'd say that the reason why there were less rocket attacks is because the fighters who probably fire the rockets were out engaging with the Israeli soldiers.

    I mean, let's face it: Is HAMAS going to care about the fact that it launched around 40 useless rockets less than the fact that it's brigades killed 13 (some reports putting it at 15) IDF soldiers?
    I wonder why they decided to phrase it the way they did? It implies that Iron Dome isn't hitting everything and I wonder how many Israelis understand how it works, i.e. that low risk attacks are let through.
    Bearing in mind the way that Iron Dome works, I wonder what the practicality is on Hamas/Hezbollah creating a primitive weapon capable of a course change, i.e. to Iron Dome it is of no threat, not likely to land in a city, then late on it changes course possible at a point too late for Iron Dome to react in time/safely.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    If it had been Fatah in power in Gaza, I would have agreed with you but it is HAMAS (or as the Bibi terms it, "Khamas") and based on the last couple of wars fought and the ceasefire terms, they are making dogged progress despite Israeli's constant military bombardment of the Gaza strip.

    In a way, I understand the Israeli predicament. If they do nothing, then HAMAS gets stronger but if they do something, they pay a heavy price (deaths, condemnation, trade, cost, lives etc etc)...
    But would you really say they're making progress? What actually is this progress? The only way I can really see them beginning to "win" in any way is that 1) Israel are just proving themselves ineffective at stopping the threat; 2) Israel are having to spend vast amount of money on dealing with the problem. But, the latter isn't really that much of a threat, they're spending huge amounts, but also making huge amounts of their advancements made to counter the threat, not to mention having a lot of aid from America to deal with "terrorists".
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    The dictionary definition of terror is "the use of extreme fear to intimidate people". The definition of a terrorist is using "violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Israel comfortably satisfies this criteria get nobody ever called them terrorists. Why?


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    (Original post by Chindits)
    The rocket the Khaibar-1 is derived from is a Chinese make, which is named m-302 or Weishi, presumably not unrelated to the 302mm calibre.
    I really do suggest you check your "facts" before declaring them because, even on the page for Weishi, there is still no reference to any "M-302" designation, the closest to that you get it F320T which is a launch platform.

    No.


    It seems there's a general comprehension problem with you.

    43 were killed in Israeli towns and cities by rockets.

    I'm not sure how to make it any clearer. Do you need the street addresses of the rocket hits?
    Since you claim to know everybody in Israel, go for it,

    I literally can't be any clearer than this. This is the third time I'm saying this. 43 Israeli citizens died in several towns and cities before Iron Dome was in place.
    Are soldiers not citizens now? No wonder Israel lets them remain in the hands of Hamas for years after being captures.
    I suppose, that's in exactly the same way that over 400 Palestine citizens have died in the last 13 days at the hand of Israel, but of course they're all terrorists that aren't actually dead, aren't they Mr "I-will-believe-everything-Israel-tells-me-to".
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I wonder why they decided to phrase it the way they did? It implies that Iron Dome isn't hitting everything and I wonder how many Israelis understand how it works, i.e. that low risk attacks are let through.
    Bearing in mind the way that Iron Dome works, I wonder what the practicality is on Hamas/Hezbollah creating a primitive weapon capable of a course change, i.e. to Iron Dome it is of no threat, not likely to land in a city, then late on it changes course possible at a point too late for Iron Dome to react in time/safely.
    It would be interesting to note the specifics but given HAMAS's required need to not be too dependent on outside arms and instead develop their own, such an "opportunity" will be far off in the future.

    However, Hezbollah have now entered the fray by offering assistance and it would be interesting to see how the ID measures up to the more sophisticated rockets in their arsenal if they were to find their way into HAMAS's hands...
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    (Original post by #That'sNotMe)
    The dictionary definition of terror is "the use of extreme fear to intimidate people". The definition of a terrorist is using "violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Israel comfortably satisfies this criteria get nobody ever called them terrorists. Why?


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    I guess for the same reason the UK isn't - despite invading Iraq (a country which never attacked the UK) and invading Afghanistan (a country which never attacked the UK)

    At least Israel fights enemies that attack it. Unlike the UK
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    It would be interesting to note the specifics but given HAMAS's required need to not be too dependent on outside arms and instead develop their own, such an "opportunity" will be far off in the future.

    However, Hezbollah have now entered the fray by offering assistance and it would be interesting to see how the ID measures up to the more sophisticated rockets in their arsenal if they were to find their way into HAMAS's hands...
    By the way ID works, unless there is a significant course change very near impact it should have no trouble, it's if you get a severe course change late enough that it could be tricked since it would believe it to be harmless, whereas it would in actual fact be a threat. Presumably they would try to find some way to ID the missile so as to determine the capabilities before they shoot everything out of the sky, since each shot costs over $20,000
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Er, flares.
    Flares for lighting an area aren't exactly going to be used during the day, are they? and as for countermeasures, you don't fire a single flare, you fire dozens, for example:
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    But would you really say they're making progress? What actually is this progress? The only way I can really see them beginning to "win" in any way is that 1) Israel are just proving themselves ineffective at stopping the threat;
    Well, this is clearly evident in HAMAS's or more accurately, Qassam Brigades infiltration into Israel. It demonstrates that even if you close on tunnel, there are many more.

    Previous to this conflict, there were scant reports of tunnel infiltration to Israel. The tunnels were, I believe, mainly used for smuggling.

    Add to the fact that there are now 22 IDF deaths and over 101 hospitalised troops and the picture suddenly becomes clearer for the Israeli public. The ID does it's job defending Israel and there is no need to attack the Gaza strip.

    2) Israel are having to spend vast amount of money on dealing with the problem. But, the latter isn't really that much of a threat, they're spending huge amounts, but also making huge amounts of their advancements made to counter the threat, not to mention having a lot of aid from America to deal with "terrorists".
    I believe Israel would look back at this operation, especially the ground invasion and think that it was a little premature. Essentially it backfired because they have continually under-estimated HAMAS and their home-made rudimentary weapons.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Flares for lighting an area aren't exactly going to be used during the day, are they? and as for countermeasures, you don't fire a single flare, you fire dozens, for example:
    Flares are used by infantry to pint point targets for air support.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Well, this is clearly evident in HAMAS's or more accurately, Qassam Brigades infiltration into Israel. It demonstrates that even if you close on tunnel, there are many more.

    Previous to this conflict, there were scant reports of tunnel infiltration to Israel. The tunnels were, I believe, mainly used for smuggling.

    Add to the fact that there are now 22 IDF deaths and over 101 hospitalised troops and the picture suddenly becomes clearer for the Israeli public. The ID does it's job defending Israel and there is no need to attack the Gaza strip.



    I believe Israel would look back at this operation, especially the ground invasion and think that it was a little premature. Essentially it backfired because they have continually under-estimated HAMAS and their home-made rudimentary weapons.
    The weapons are more of an inconvenience than an actual threat, they'e an excuse to go to war. I posted a bit back (if it isn't one of the "offensive/tolly" posts a graph showing fatalities on both sides in 2008 up until 18th December when war broke out. Israel had only lost 21 people, there is also a graph showing how many rockets/mortars were fired too, although I didn't look for that, and that was before ID. with ID, that figure should drop to 0, or at least an even smaller number. It's a minimal threat.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Flares are used by infantry to pint point targets for air support.
    Rather behind the times, last I checked people either used coloured smoke or IR flares. And if it is for designating targets, why have they nor been used for the last 2 weeks?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Rather behind the times, last I checked people either used coloured smoke or IR flares. And if it is for designating targets, why have they nor been used for the last 2 weeks?
    IR flares as markers? no.

    2 weeks ago the soldiers were not in Gaza.

    And they were used on the first night of the incursion and subsequently.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    IR flares as markers? no.

    2 weeks ago the soldiers were not in Gaza.

    And they were used on the first night of the incursion and subsequently.
    If IR flares are useless then Israel must still be in the early 20th Century. For a man on the ground IR flares are substantially better than other because, you know, the enemy can't see this great big light or plume of smoke saying "pst, the air cav is coming".
    Two weeks ago they weren't in Gaza, but were still able to hit targets just fine
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    It would be interesting to note the specifics but given HAMAS's required need to not be too dependent on outside arms and instead develop their own, such an "opportunity" will be far off in the future.

    However, Hezbollah have now entered the fray by offering assistance and it would be interesting to see how the ID measures up to the more sophisticated rockets in their arsenal if they were to find their way into HAMAS's hands...
    Source for this?

    I doubt they'd give assistance after Hamas supported the anti Bashar al-Assad groups in Syria, Iran pulled their support too from Hamas.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    By the way ID works, unless there is a significant course change very near impact it should have no trouble, it's if you get a severe course change late enough that it could be tricked since it would believe it to be harmless, whereas it would in actual fact be a threat. Presumably they would try to find some way to ID the missile so as to determine the capabilities before they shoot everything out of the sky, since each shot costs over $20,000
    Or HAMAS could try to do a rocket inside a rocket to fool the system. Like a cluster missile of some sorts...
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    Source for this?

    I doubt they'd give assistance after Hamas supported the anti Bashar al-Assad groups in Syria, Iran pulled their support too from Hamas.
    Source given in this post.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    By the way ID works, unless there is a significant course change very near impact it should have no trouble, it's if you get a severe course change late enough that it could be tricked since it would believe it to be harmless, whereas it would in actual fact be a threat. Presumably they would try to find some way to ID the missile so as to determine the capabilities before they shoot everything out of the sky, since each shot costs over $20,000
    But even now, the system is not foolproof.
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    Calls by an Israeli lawmaker to "eliminate the Palestinian problem"...
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    Academic calls for the rape of Palestinian women to deter attacks.
 
 
 
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