Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Psyk
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#1041
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#1041
(Original post by ConorWilson)
No. I stated a fact, Scottish taxes have been used for this.
Only in the same way that Londoner taxes have been used to fund the Scottish government. The taxes go into one pot, then get redistributed. As far as I'm aware they don't separate out what money came from where. Would that even make sense when money isn't a physical thing? If two people each pay £5 into a joint bank account, then there's no way to say which one those £10 now in the account belong to which person.

It's expected that some times more money will be spent on a part of the country than the money that was raised in that area. And other times they will contribute more than they receive. It acts as a safety net, one that Scotland would lose if it was independent.
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ConorWilson
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#1042
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#1042
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Well we'll keep the numbers simple. SNP got 50% of the vote, yet only 30% of us want to seperate.

So that's (50 - 30) x 2 = 40% of the SNP vote don't want to seperate.

If you're saying that there's more labour people who want to seperate then by default that 40% actually increases. And lets remember that we only had about a 50% turn out for the last Scottish election.

As you're a campaigner then, would you mind answering some of the questions relating to Pension Liabilities, Oil rig decomissioning, Oil price volatility, defence, Welfare cuts, higher education, entry into the EU, WTO, IMF, UN, NATO, lender of last resort, foreign policy and associated costs, potential loss of access to the FTSE that will impact on Edinburghs financial services.

I need more than why can't we. Or we're different. Remember I have a flag, my own culture and my own history so raw emotion isn't going to sway me or the majority of the population.
Ok,

Pension liabilities; Private pensions would remain unaffected, obviously. Public pensions, we already have our own Scottish public pensions agency. These arrangements would not be changed by a yes vote. With regards, the civil service pensions, the Scottish government would then take on these pensions.

Oil rig decomissioning and Oil price volatility. Well, oil would be hugley important to an independent Scotland, and the price of oil. However, in personal opinion Scotland is far less dependent on oil than Norway, and with wise investment, they have stored up £400 billion! Oil can only benefit an independent Scotland and help boost the economy, not be our economy as some in the no camp would suggest.

Entry in to EU, UN ect. Scotland could gain entry into these, obviously, with things like the UN we wouldn't have the same power and influence of the UK. But that would be representing Scotland and only Scotland, and i'm sure i've already coverd the voice of the Scottish people getting our voice heard.

Defence, really would not be an issue but a positive! I have the upmost respect for the British armed forces but is spending Billions on trident whilst having Scottish regiments of the army cut really isn't a great pro union argument. just because Scotland is small doesn't mean we'd have a host of enemys beating at the gates the moment of independence. There's much smaller countries that us!

Foregin policy would be the policy of an indvidual government, not independence.

Free Higher education would be written into a constitution for all Scots.


I wouldn't say we'd lose acess to the ftse 100, considering we'd look to say in the pound...
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MatureStudent36
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#1043
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#1043
(Original post by xkarla)
I understand the point that many wouldn't vote but a recent poll did in our school proved that many of 16/17 year olds would not vote but in regards to Scottish Independence they would just to "be one up on England."
I personally think that we shouldn't be allowed to vote as our minds can be easily swayed and will be by the majority that still hold that grudge.

I think that if the law regards us as children then we should not be allowed to vote.
It's a tricky one. I've met some bright 16 and 17 year olds and some dumb 16 and 17 year olds.

I've met some bright 40 year olds and some dumb 40 year olds.

See the point I'm making here?

My concern is that at 16 and 17 I could hold a debate on politics. But looking back I just repeated what my Father had said to me. Now, several years later with a bit more life experience we have completly opposite views.

I'm worried that parents will be forcing their kids to vote their way.

I acknowledge bias on this, but I expect parents of a political party begining with S and ending in NP will be forcing this upon their kids without truly explaining the situation to them.

The SNP have done a great job at turning Westminster, London and the South East into the bad guys in this, but have convieniently missed out the people from the Midlands and the North of England. More worringly they've missed out the Welsh and the Northern Irish. This isn't about Scotland and England. This is about a whole range of peoples.

You only have to see how they've also turned their back on their kindred spirits in Quebec and Catalonia. So they have selective views.
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Good bloke
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#1044
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#1044
(Original post by Megan1234567)
*fought Happy ?

read into your wars of independence history may I insist that Higher bitesize is useful material for you as I am sure you'll look into this
I suspect I'm at least as well read on the Scottish wars of independence as you are. I know, for instance, that they ended in 1357, and that they lasted (even if you add the duration of both together) a grand total of roughly 60 years, which is a far cry from your claimed 300 years.

Are you seriously basing your decision for a yes vote even partly on a war that ended 660 years ago, and the results of which were, anyway, superseded by peaceful political decisions which were made 350 years after that, and ignoring the 300 years of joint history after that? How utterly bizarre! The SNP appeal to nationalism is obviously working. Remember Bannockburn!

The equivalent for an Englishman might be to support Lancashire at cricket on the grounds that Richard III is supposed to have murdered the princes in the tower.
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a729
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#1045
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#1045
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
And Liverpool was once dubbed European City of culture. They names an airport after John Lennon who couldn't leave the place quickly enough.

I get the banter, but you're dealing with Nationalists here. A joke soon gets turned into 'The English are too many and oppressing us.'
It's a two-way street lol!
Though I personally think I'm Lononder >Englishman>British

I don't mind any English jokes! Though i see what you mean

Now that you mention it-why does Scotland have such low population (density)?
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ConorWilson
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#1046
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#1046
(Original post by L i b)
Based on the Scottish Government's figures on GDP which are incomplete and not signed off by the ONS...



I hope you realise renewable energy cost us billions of pounds a year at the moment... it doesn't make any sort of profit for the state and relies on subsidy.



Sigh... Scottish taxes are put into one pot, which is spent everywhere and on everything. Scotland gets billions more in spending than its population size is entitled to, even according to the Scottish Government's own figures.



They're paying for all of that: they assign the spending.

As for your fact, that fluctuates year by year. I have no problem with Scotland contributing more in taxes - indeed, any half-decent area should. However before you slap yourself on the back, the spending Scotland receives is hugely more than it raises in revenue: we have a significant deficit.
We have a lesser deficit than the rest of the UK! Scotland’s deficit in 2011/12 was significantly smaller than the UK’s. For Scotland the deficit represented 5% of national wealth (or GDP). The UK deficit represented 7.9% of national wealth.

I've already pointed out about the renewable engery subsidy...

Scottish taxes are into one pot.I meaning Scotland sees no benefit with how some our taxes our spent, this gives clear advantage to independence as we could spent our money on what we need.

The UK assign the spending. True, in previous years this has involved spending money "on our behalf" which has involved Scotland chipping in the excellent road network on the south of England.
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Good bloke
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#1047
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#1047
(Original post by ConorWilson)
we'd look to say in the pound...
Ah yes! The arrangement where Scots seeking to take control of things that they don't currently have enough say in decide to completely give up control of a major plank of economic strategy to a foreign power.
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cowsforsale
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#1048
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#1048
(Original post by xkarla)
Sorry if someone has raised this point but I didn't read all the 51 pages.
I think its a bad thing and the MP's are pushing for 16 and 17 year old to be allowed the right to vote only because we hold the grudge of the English ruling over us all those many years ago - braveheart.
This would greatly influence their decision and majority of 16 and 17 year old would for yes for Scotland to become independent. That would gain a large portion of extra votes and could probably sway the vote.
16 and 17 years old participating in a vote which will affect their future immensely? Oh no!!!!! And all the middle aged folks are well reasoning folk aren't they?

(Original post by a729)
Not when the oil runs dry and there's no taxes from London to subsidise government spending
Would the oil flow forever under the union?
Does london not subsidise pretty much the rest of England, N.I and Wales? Why aren't you people angry that you're government are investing so much in london (HS2, buses, olympics etc) yet spend so little everywhere else? And reports saying the deficit has gone up by 20% or something ever since the coalition came into power.

http://www.cebr.com/wp-content/uploa...ility-Mode.pdf
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pesa_2011_chapter9.pdf
http://www.ippr.org/images/media/fil...1%201_8411.pdf
Good article from an Unionist.

(Original post by Midlander)
Hmmm, well England has a more diverse mix of cultures, doesn't have its own parliament, and is far more economically powerful than the rest of the UK combined (specifically down to it being much more heavily populated).
As I semi-seriously said earlier, if any member of the UK should be pushing for a separation it should be England.
Scotland doesn't have a diverse mix of cultures?
Anyway, it seems like you're going out your way to be offended. I was in George Sq. last year when the Scottish Olympians (funny how none of the rest came over?) came home and everyone were cheering them on stage, and waving UNION JACK flags...
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ConorWilson
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#1049
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#1049
(Original post by Good bloke)
Ah yes! The arrangement where Scots seeking to take control of things that they don't currently have enough say in decide to completely give up control of a major plank of economic strategy to a foreign power.
Why would the rest of the UK not want us in the pound?
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a729
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#1050
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#1050
(Original post by cowsforsale)
16 and 17 years old participating in a vote which will affect their future immensely? Oh no!!!!! And all the middle aged folks are well reasoning folk aren't they?



Would the oil flow forever under the union?
Does london not subsidise pretty much the rest of England, N.I and Wales? Why aren't you people angry that you're government are investing so much in london (HS2, buses, olympics etc) yet spend so little everywhere else? And reports saying the deficit has gone up by 20% or something ever since the coalition came into power.

http://www.cebr.com/wp-content/uploa...ility-Mode.pdf
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pesa_2011_chapter9.pdf
http://www.ippr.org/images/media/fil...1%201_8411.pdf




Scotland doesn't have a diverse mix of cultures?
Anyway, it seems like you're going out your way to be offended. I was in George Sq. last year when the Scottish Olympians (funny how none of the rest came over?) came home and everyone were cheering them on stage, and waving UNION JACK flags...
You just contradicted yourself concerning London....
Don't forget we had a double dip recession that was at risk of becoming a triple dip!

Plus I'd rather a pure conservative government than a coalition anyday - the lid dems are questionable to say the least -look at Hunhe!
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Good bloke
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#1051
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#1051
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Why would the rest of the UK not want us in the pound?
The issue isn't whether Scotland would be able to use sterling. The issue is that the value of the pound would be set with the UK's interests in mind, taking no account of Scotland's needs anymore. Scottish interests have a say in decsions now, but they wouldn't after independence. Isn't that obvious? Just as joining the euro would mean the Scottish economy's needs would be almost entirely ignored when set against the French, German and Italian economies.
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ConorWilson
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#1052
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#1052
(Original post by Good bloke)
The issue isn't whether Scotland would be able to use sterling. The issue is that the value of the pound would be set with the UK's interests in mind, taking no account of Scotland's needs anymore. Scottish interests have a say in decsions now, but they wouldn't after independence. Isn't that obvious? Just as joining the euro would mean the Scottish economy's needs would be almost entirely ignored when set against the French, German and Italian economies.
Yes, but Scotland could build a stronger economy and still be a part of the pound.
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Maths Tutor
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#1053
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#1053
(Original post by a729)
When the friends down south help bankroll your lifestyle (FREE uni , FREE hospital parking and FREE prescriptions) when the southern friends don't have that- you sound like the person who's biting the hand that feeds them
How can our "friends down south" be bankrolling our lifestyle when they can't even bankroll their own?

If you are sure that England is subsidising Scotland, produce figures which prove that instead of making FALSE claims.
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Good bloke
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#1054
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#1054
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Yes, but Scotland could build a stronger economy and still be a part of the pound.
Perhaps. But I thought the point of independence was to gain more control, not less. Scotland, far more heavily dependent on oil, will have completely different needs in a currency than the UK, which will have relatively little exposure to the oil markets. The issue is one of divergence. The more the two economies diverge (which seems inevitable), the more difficult British decisions would make things for the Scots.
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xkarla
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#1055
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#1055
(Original post by cowsforsale)
16 and 17 years old participating in a vote which will affect their future immensely? Oh no!!!!! And all the middle aged folks are well reasoning folk aren't they?



Would the oil flow forever under the union?
Does london not subsidise pretty much the rest of England, N.I and Wales? Why aren't you people angry that you're government are investing so much in london (HS2, buses, olympics etc) yet spend so little everywhere else? And reports saying the deficit has gone up by 20% or something ever since the coalition came into power.

http://www.cebr.com/wp-content/uploa...ility-Mode.pdf
http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pesa_2011_chapter9.pdf
http://www.ippr.org/images/media/fil...1%201_8411.pdf
Good article from an Unionist.



Scotland doesn't have a diverse mix of cultures?
Anyway, it seems like you're going out your way to be offended. I was in George Sq. last year when the Scottish Olympians (funny how none of the rest came over?) came home and everyone were cheering them on stage, and waving UNION JACK flags...
I understand that it effects the 16/17 year olds life probably more than it will effect a middle aged person or elder person. The point I am saying is that younger kids are more easily persuaded than older people. Teenagers can be often swayed from opinion to opinion, but older people generally stick to their point and argue it out.

I can see both the benefits in Scotland becoming independent and Scotland not becoming independent but I think its wrong bringing in teenagers.
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cowsforsale
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#1056
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#1056
(Original post by a729)
You just contradicted yourself concerning London....
Don't forget we had a double dip recession that was at risk of becoming a triple dip!

Plus I'd rather a pure conservative government than a coalition anyday - the lid dems are questionable to say the least -look at Hunhe!
Everyone else experienced the double dip too, how are they doing? How are Iceland and Ireland doing?
And to be fair, do you trust any mps after the expenses scandal?
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cowsforsale
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#1057
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#1057
(Original post by xkarla)
I understand that it effects the 16/17 year olds life probably more than it will effect a middle aged person or elder person. The point I am saying is that younger kids are more easily persuaded than older people. Teenagers can be often swayed from opinion to opinion, but older people generally stick to their point and argue it out.

I can see both the benefits in Scotland becoming independent and Scotland not becoming independent but I think its wrong bringing in teenagers.
I'm fairly sure that attitude is quite patronising to 16 and 17 year olds, just look at what they are legally able to do at
16 and 17...You can even join the army at 16.

And surely being able to look at the facts and come to a decision whether that's for or against is better than sticking to your guns even if you're right or wrong?
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a729
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#1058
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#1058
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
How can our "friends down south" be bankrolling our lifestyle when they can't even bankroll their own?

If you are sure that England is subsidising Scotland, produce figures which prove that instead of making FALSE claims.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-English.html

State spending north of the border averaged £10,212 per head last year, some £1,624 per person higher than in England — a fact that will put pressure on ministers to review the controversial funding formula which has been in place for more than 30 years.

The basic facts are that Scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending.(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16477990)
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a729
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#1059
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#1059
(Original post by cowsforsale)
Everyone else experienced the double dip too, how are they doing? How are Iceland and Ireland doing?
And to be fair, do you trust any mps after the expenses scandal?
I distrust must - remembering some have moral compasses and some don't i.e Hunhe!
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Midlander
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#1060
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#1060
(Original post by cowsforsale)
Scotland doesn't have a diverse mix of cultures?
Anyway, it seems like you're going out your way to be offended. I was in George Sq. last year when the Scottish Olympians (funny how none of the rest came over?) came home and everyone were cheering them on stage, and waving UNION JACK flags...
I didn't say Scotland wasn't diverse at all, simply that England is more so-and that is undeniable as you progress from south to north and east to west. What exactly does the Olympics have to do with anything? My point was about the embarrassing ABE attitude that Scots have towards sport. They'd happily see Scotland lose to anybody if it meant England got to lose as well.
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