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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    Firstly Israel does try to avoid civilians, I do accept civilians are killed and it is really terrible, but if it wasn't for Hamas hiding their weapons in the civilian areas and telling people to stay a be a human shield, far fewer (if any at all) civilians would die.

    Equally you can't say Israel is morally worse by the simple fact of them using more powerful sophisticated weaponry, I don't understand why people think that Hamas using less dangerous rockets than Israel makes them a more benevolent force than Israel.



    This is true actually, Hamas is not the Palestinian people and the Palestinian people are not Hamas, which is why Israel does need to make every effort it can to kill Hamas militants and only Hamas militants.
    I do not believe that Israel are taking all necessary precautions to avoid civilian casualties. For example they are using flechette shells in a civilian area, which may be illegal and there have been several well-publicised incidents in this conflict that show Israel targeting civilians in areas where there are no military targets in the area. Just a few hours ago Israel shelled a hospital.

    Additionally, while Hamas may have started this current conflict, the conflict has been ongoing for decades and Israel haven't exactly abided by previous ceasefire arrangements( ie 2012).
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    Confirmation that almost half of Gaza city is now covered in white phosphorus, the use of which is an internationally accepted war crime.

    "Israel has broken 65 U.N resolutions with no consequences. Iraq broke two and got invaded, bombed and destroyed."
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    (Original post by Law-Hopeful)
    Watch the first minute of the video I quoted above with Jon Snow. Regev pleads ignorance, basically. No apology, no reparations, nothing.

    I have seen no report that has stated that militants were near the children, so this sounds a lot like a war crime to me.
    Innocent until proven guilty. I will remain sceptical until there is evidence that Israel intentionally fired on civilians.
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    Just want to do a poll since this is the hottest topic as of right now.

    My stance:


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    (Original post by yo radical one)
    I want a credible source other than CNN proving that the Israeli tanks fired first

    and I have the £20 - I had taken a picture with your username written on a piece of paper next to the note, but it won't let me upload
    I don't have to prove that the Israeli's fired first.

    In fact, you have not proved that HAMAS fired first as the link you gave me made no mention of that "fact".

    By default, that £20 is now mine. When do you want me to collect?
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    (Original post by james22)
    Innocent until proven guilty. I will remain sceptical until there is evidence that Israel intentionally fired on civilians.
    They fired on a hospital just now. Could you tell us why they did so?
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    Egypt willing to amend ceasefire terms in order to resolve issue. I think it feels it's position as peace broker is getting a little threatened by Turkey, Qatar and Kuwait...
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    Because Israel wouldn't be killing anyone in Gaza if Hamas weren't firing rockets into its territory.

    If Israel really were a terrorist state, Gaza would have been flattened a long time ago and nobody would care, just like nobody cares about the plight of Syrians - Syria is an actual example of a terrorist state, under Assad.
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Note how the BBC mentions the dead Israeli soldiers first before moving to the 500 odd Palestinians who have been murdered.

    Also if you guys have twitter, follow Jon Snow of Channel 4, Harry Fear and Ben White- amongst the journalists who still have some dignity remaining.
    They are emphasising it because its the first major loss for the Israeli's. Not because the death of the Israeli soldiers matter most.
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    Let's be honest, placing Israel where they put it was a mistake from the start. It wasn't likely that the other nations would take kindly to a Jewish state appearing in their midst. I would say that all the brutality of Israel is probably due to the fact that it is surrounded by potential enemies, and can't afford to show any sign of weakness. Has Israel ever actually been in a situation where it hasn't been at war in any of it's history, from it's creation onwards?
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    (Original post by Wilsoncw1997)
    Just want to do a poll since this is the hottest topic as of right now.
    The fact it's the "hottest topic" is actually more of an indictment against anti-Israelis who seem to ignore much more pressing issues in the world and concentrate on this.

    We had the same situation when Arabs killed 250,000 indigenous Darfurians whilst Israel remained the 'hot topic'.
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    More blatant Zionist spin.

    That is exactly why the International community ought to ask questions...

    This hiding behind women and children fallacy really irks me. Where are these women and children supposed to go in one of the most densely populated areas in the world which has it's borders closed and a naval blockade sitting off it's coast. MSF have described it as an open prison!

    In any event even if Hamas hide behind women and children does that make it morally acceptable to kill said women and children? You believe they should respond to barbaric behaviour with even more barbarism.

    Of course Israel has an economic advantage over Gaza. They've closed Gaza's borders! The Palestinians can't trade with anyone. This is one of their key demands, that the borders are opened so they can grow their economy and invest in public services. And you're consistent referral to the Jews as being harder working lends your argument a rather sinister racial undertone.

    And please for the love of God stop starting your replies on this thread with "lol". Regardless of your opinion the idea that you see this deadly conflict as a laughing matter suggests you're completely desensitised to violence which is a bit chilling.
    Hamas is building infrastructure within these towns so you cannot say they are not supporting them.

    The media is listing anyone who is killed as a civilian, maybe they were a terrorist? You get what you work for. If you follow a backward path and dont want progress this is what you get.
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    (Original post by Unruly Marmite)
    Let's be honest, placing Israel where they put it was a mistake from the start.
    Where should it be instead? The unholy land?

    It wasn't likely that the other nations would take kindly to a Jewish state appearing in their midst. I would say that all the brutality of Israel is probably due to the fact that it is surrounded by potential enemies, and can't afford to show any sign of weakness.
    Last I checked, the saying wasSi vis paccem, para bellum and not Si vis pacem, cives hostes occidere


    Has Israel ever actually been in a situation where it hasn't been at war in any of it's history, from it's creation onwards?
    Have many countries been at peace for a large portion of its history, USA has been around for over two centuries, and it's only known peace for 21 years
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    @qassam_arabic1 stating that today, they have killed 2 Israeli soldiers and went toe to toe in the last couple of minutes with another bunch of Israeli soldiers where they managed to kill 10 more.


    No confirmation from Israeli's about the deaths.


    Captured Soldier: Ron Rosor, Israeli Ambassador to UN, flatly denied HAMAS had captured Shaul Aron (6092605) but the IDF have not confirmed nor denied this.
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    Isreal

    Muslims have killed more muslims while all this has been going on.

    The lack of concern or outrage tell us all we need to know
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    Hamas is building infrastructure within these towns so you cannot say they are not supporting them.

    The media is listing anyone who is killed as a civilian, maybe they were a terrorist? You get what you work for. If you follow a backward path and dont want progress this is what you get.
    I'm sure some of the dead are from Hamas, yes. The media have not claimed all the dead or civilian. They have reported that hospitals and civilian neighbourhoods have been razed.

    You get what you work for? You don't think the 11 year olds killed on the beach, already fishing to help feed their families worked hard?

    With capitalists "You get what you work for" means play by our rules or live in poverty.
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    (Original post by felamaslen)
    Because Israel wouldn't be killing anyone in Gaza if Hamas weren't firing rockets into its territory.

    If Israel really were a terrorist state, Gaza would have been flattened a long time ago and nobody would care, just like nobody cares about the plight of Syrians - Syria is an actual example of a terrorist state, under Assad.
    But HAMAS wouldn't be firing rockets if it weren't for the Gaza blockade...
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    I'm sure some of the dead are from Hamas, yes. The media have not claimed all the dead or civilian. They have reported that hospitals and civilian neighbourhoods have been razed.

    You get what you work for? You don't think the 11 year olds killed on the beach, already fishing to help feed their families worked hard?

    With capitalists "You get what you work for" means play by our rules or live in poverty.
    last two sentences were merely emotional pleas. They were playing football, innocent civilians do get hurt in War ask the USA just like the 3 innocent israeli teenagers butchered by terrorists.

    With Capitalism not capitalists, if you work hard you get ahead. No rules in capitalism.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Where should it be instead? The unholy land?


    Last I checked, the saying wasSi vis paccem, para bellum and not Si vis pacem, cives hostes occidere



    Have many countries been at peace for a large portion of its history, USA has been around for over two centuries, and it's only known peace for 21 years
    Firstly, I don't think Israel should have been created anyway, but if it had to be created Europe would probably have been best, though that wouldn't wash. I'll ignore the clearly facetious tone of your response.
    Secondly, using Latin doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look pretentious. However, last I knew, Hamas is not a state, it isn't even the ruling party of Palestine, so it doesn't have civilians. And, even if it did, the Israeli armed forces do not purposefully target civilians, the deaths of civilians are a result of Hamas hiding among the populace to provoke this kind of response. What are Israeli armed forces supposed to do, allow Hamas to fire rockets at their cities unopposed?
    Thirdly, the point about the USA may be true, so I shall amend it. How many countries have been under attack by a group intent on wiping them from the face of the Earth and surrounded by nations that are, at best, unfriendly? This would trend to breed a certain degree of ruthlessness, I would assume.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    But HAMAS wouldn't be firing rockets if it weren't for the Gaza blockade...
    You've got that the wrong way round. Appeasing Hamas would require destroying Israel.
 
 
 
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