Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#1121
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
I never claimed that.
No. But you were claiming that Scotland doesn't have a say and the SNP speak for the Scottish people. I merely pointed out that we do have a say, and that the SNP don't speak for Scotland as can be seen in the voting patterns of Scotland. The SNP has been voted into Holyrood.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
This is what I literally said



So I know its the unionist chosen tactic but please stop lying and distorting things.
I'm not lying or disrtorting anything. I make rational decsions on the evidence avaialable. You're living in the past. The world's moved on. Quite significantly.
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I've heard some of your beliefs. But you fail to back them up.
Some people think Elvis is alive. Others that the world is flat. They'll never be convinced as they have closed minds and fir many its a sickness.
Ahah and then there's people that that constantly down what your saying as if they know fine well what they are saying and think there right , they don't let opinion flow through , you also lack passion in your argument also you copy and paste your argument thought the help of the Internet , so no one really knows what your take on it is. Say your opinion alone and move on.
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Left Hand Drive
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
My entire country? You mean our country surely. The one that's got it's elected MPs sat in cabinet at this very moment? Or do you mean when the other guys get in an we still get our MPs in cabinet.

yes. I saw the comments about the oil...... Published twenty four hours after the news of cuts to spending post independence.
Just in case you missed it.
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/...aled-1-2822794

I tend to believe what politicians say in private rather than publis statements.

I guess they've learnt from the European entry debacle to at least have a piece of paper to show off this time.

i'll wait out until I know what the industry says.

but I know one thing for sure. Extraction costs are still rising and hence the increases in price. But those higher extraction costs result in less taxable revenues.

you still haven't told me your views on Shetland though? Can they go if they choose or must they stay?

Yes Scotland a country. Who did not vote for the tories!

Yep another thing distorted by unionist. Why is it you need to lie?
CREDIT where credit is due: the Better Together campaign pulled off a coup with its publication of a leaked cabinet paper from John Swinney, laying out fiscal options in the post-independence period.

However, what the document actually says is very different from the spin put on it by the No campaign. Quite the opposite in fact.

It’s worth having a look at the supposed “secret” document, which you can find on the Better Together web page. But beware. When you log on you’ll find the front page of the document boldly proclaims “top secret – the truth about taxes, spending and oil in a separate Scotland”. Clearly this is not part of the internal memo but a mock-up supplied by the creative geniuses behind Better Together to put their own spin on the contents. You’ll also see they have redacted the first part of the paper. I wonder why?

The Better Together editors insert comments throughout the document. Frequently these are at odds with the text. For instance, the running commentary says: “Today [the SNP] claim that Scotland is better off than the UK. They admit internally that we’d soon be worse-off.” However the text in question is actually quoting a forecast from the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), which advises the Chancellor of the Exchequer. So it’s the OBR that claims Scotland is fiscally better off, not Mr Swinney. What the document actually says is: “Before 2016-17, Scotland is projected to have a smaller deficit, as a share of GDP, than the UK.”

The paragraph in the leaked document then says: “In 2016-17, the OBR forecasts suggest that Scotland would have a marginally larger net fiscal deficit than the UK.” Proof things will be worse under independence? Even here, the No campaign spin doctors are twisting things. For a start, the OBR forecasts Scotland’s deficit (for the single year) at a paltry 2 per cent. Assuming independent Scotland had economic growth of 2 per cent or more – which it could with such a stimulus – it would easily fund this deficit. Far from being worse off, Scotland would be getting richer at around £500 per person per year on these figures. (By the way, the OBR only gets Scotland’s 2016-17 deficit lower than for the rest of UK by predicating unrealistically low oil prices.)

The central argument of the No campaign is that pooled sovereignty allows the sharing of economic and fiscal risks in an uncertain global economy. By itself, that is reasonable point of view. Any small nation can easily find itself facing adverse economic conditions; eg Finland lost 15 per cent of its GDP in three years, after the collapse of the Soviet Union destroyed its main export market.

Of course, Finnish growth soon bounced back and by 2000 was a phenomenal 6 per cent as the Finns went into the mobile phone business. Which is my point: the experience of small, industrial nations in Western Europe is that they respond faster and more successfully to economic crisis than do bigger nations. In other words, the economic insurance argument of the Better Together campaign is disproved by real life.

Examples are legion. Tiny Iceland’s banks went kaput in 2008 sending unemployment to an unheard 10 per cent. But Iceland has recovered and unemployment is below 5 per cent – it’s nearly 8 per cent here. Last month Iceland even had its international credit rating raised – unlike Britain. Sweden, despite the downturn, has a government debt less than half the UK’s. Swedish growth hit a record low in 2008 but was back at an all-time high by 2010. In 2008, Switzerland had to bail out its own banks, which had liabilities several times larger than the country’s GDP. These days the Swiss authorities are desperately trying to stop everyone else’s money poring into their country’s restored banking system. Ireland has just had two years of faster growth than Britain plus it has a healthy export surplus.

Meanwhile the UK has still not recovered the level of output it had before the banking crisis. Britain’s total debt is still rising and economic growth has stalled. Yet the majority of small nations in Western Europe have made a faster and stronger recovery. This knocks the case for pooled fiscal risk on the head.

We need to ask how these small countries managed to dig themselves out of an economic hole as fast as they did? The answer has nothing to do with being wise. Anyone could see the Irish and Icelandic economic car crashes coming a mile away. But Western Europe’s small independent democracies have significant advantages when it comes to changing economic direction quickly.

First, these countries were able to tailor fiscal policy to their own local needs. A bigger nation may have superior borrowing powers but its fiscal policy ends up a compromise that may not suit specific regions (eg Scotland) when it comes to promoting recovery. Ireland’s export-led recovery is predicated on its low corporation tax. Sweden returned to growth by slashing income tax, especially for low-income families. Iceland refused to bail out its banks with taxpayers’ money and banned the export of capital to ensure bank funds were invested in the local economy. In the UK, where the government still panders to the City and Russian oligarchs, none of these things were done.

Second, in a small democracy solidarity makes it easier for a government to ask for the necessary economic sacrifices during an emergency – provided everyone contributes equally. In Britain however, vested interests always seem to be exempted from national sacrifice. In Britain, Chancellor Osborne is protecting bankers’ bonuses from the EU. In Iceland, they jailed the bankers who caused the crisis.

Better Together are congratulating themselves on the headlines their coup garnered, which focus on John Swinney prompting his SNP ministerial colleagues not to spend before the economy is strong enough to merit it. Actually, that sounds to me as if Mr Swinney is a better bet than George Osborne.

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman...rIWqao.twitter

I believe in peoples right to self determination.
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marcusfox
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
To cut a very long story short, island enclaves contained entirely within another country's exclusive economic zone (200 nautical miles) get territorial waters (12 nautical miles) but no EEZ of their own. So Shetland would be quite entitled to declare independence from Scotland, but since none of the oil is within the 12 mile territorial waters limit they'd get bugger all in that regard. They could of course charge oil companies a fee for the use of facilities on Shetland (e.g. the big terminal at Sullom Voe) but they wouldn't be entitled to any control or any tax revenue from the oil/gas itself, all of which would be located in Scotland's Exclusive Economic Zone.

Why do unionist purposely lie?
The point about island exclaves is exactly that, and that claim is only concerned with island exclaves of another country inside another country's EEZ.

Should they become independent, they won't be island exclaves of any country, but their own independent entity entitled to their own EEZ on the same basis of any other independent entity.

By your argument, when Ireland became independent (they are an island after all), they would only have been entitled to an EEZ of 12 miles around their coast where it conflicted with the UK's EEZ, (which wouldn't have been much, since there is no point in the Republic of Ireland that is more than 200 miles from the coast of the UK) but that didn't happen, they received their own EEZ on the basis of established principles of international law.
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Left Hand Drive
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#1126
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
No. But you were claiming that Scotland doesn't have a say and the SNP speak for the Scottish people. I merely pointed out that we do have a say, and that the SNP don't speak for Scotland as can be seen in the voting patterns of Scotland. The SNP has been voted into Holyrood.
Where?


(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Deliousional at best. Why should scotland have a right but not Shetland.

It's not a unionist lie.
Its international law.


(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'm not lying or disrtorting anything. I make rational decsions on the evidence avaialable. You're living in the past. The world's moved on. Quite significantly.
Please sure me where Im living in the past?
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MatureStudent36
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#1127
(Original post by Megan1234567)
Ahah and then there's people that that constantly down what your saying as if they know fine well what they are saying and think there right , they don't let opinion flow through , you also lack passion in your argument also you copy and paste your argument thought the help of the Internet , so no one really knows what your take on it is. Say your opinion alone and move on.
I don'y like passion getting in the way. Infact you'll find that there's plenty of academic research that shows that passion and emotion always lead to poorer performance.

The only thing I've cut and paste from the internet is URL links to back up my arguments from independent sources. So for example. When the SNP say they'll increase public spending and cut taxes and I find a SNP report that says exactly the oppoiste. You'll forgive me for not getting passionate or emotional.
When SNP supporters portray us as victims without a voice when we've had a high impact on politics in Westminster. You'll forgive me for not being passionate or emotional.

Opinions fine, but I prefer to debate opinion when it's backed up with empiracal evidence and studies. Not blatant biased fairy storys.

I think I've made my stand quite clear. I'm happy with what I've got at the moment. Education, Health etc are devolved matters and are controlled closer to the point of use.

What I don't however want is a riskier, unsecured future based on emotional arguments that aren't founded in truth. You need to remember. I'm in the majority. You're in the minority.

I believe that all home nations synergise each other I'd rather not be in an infinitley weaker position because one party got a majority once in what I believe is a protest vote.

You're emotional. Most of us are rational.
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MatureStudent36
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#1128
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Where?

No idea hwat point you're making here


Its international law.


Which International law would that be?

Please sure me where Im living in the past?
Quoting honoury French citizenship from centuries ago.
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Left Hand Drive
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#1129
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#1129
(Original post by marcusfox)
The point about island exclaves is exactly that, and that claim is only concerned with island exclaves of another country inside another country's EEZ.

Should they become independent, they won't be island exclaves of any country, but their own independent entity entitled to their own EEZ on the same basis of any other independent entity.

By the same argument, when Ireland became independent (they are an island after all), they would only have been entitled to an EEZ of 12 miles around their coast where it conflicted with the UK's EEZ, but that didn't happen, they received their own EEZ on the basis of established principles of international law.
However the claim on here is that they want to continue as part of the UK hence 12 miles
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Yes Scotland a country. Who did not vote for the tories!

Yep another thing distorted by unionist. Why is it you need to lie?



I believe in peoples right to self determination.
That is not a news article you've posted a link to. It's an opinion page in a newspaper written by George Keravan who is incidentally an SNP politician. It's like quoting an newspaper article from Jeremy Clarkson.. ergo. It's not exactly unbiased. It's a party political broadcast as is allowed in a free democratic press. He's hardly going to write an article saying far cop. We as a party have been lying to you is he?

And yes. I've read the leaked report myslef rather than relying on soundbites from somebody else and it quite obviously says cut in public spending and increase in taxes. It's not hard. It's all there in black and white...and a bit of grey as it was photocopied.

I also believe in the right of self determination. Guess what. So does Westminster which is why they've allowed a referendum
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
However the claim on here is that they want to continue as part of the UK hence 12 miles
Once again. If you can supply any concrete evidence to back you're claim up I'd be rather interested in seeing it. The SNP have been quite clever at cherry picking certain legal information that supports their case rather than seeing the whole picture.

And who says they'll stay as part of the UK? You're claiming somebody else is stealing your goods. Whats stopping them saying the same in a seperate Scotland.
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Left Hand Drive
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
.[/B]
Are you able to use the quote function?
No. But you were claiming that Scotland doesn't have a say and the SNP speak for the Scottish people. I merely pointed out that we do have a say, and that the SNP don't speak for Scotland as can be seen in the voting patterns of Scotland. The SNP has been voted into Holyrood.
Where did I claim the SNP are speaking for the Scottish people?


Which International law would that be?
EEZ

Quoting honoury French citizenship from centuries ago.
Im not going to respond to this anymore as Im beginning to think you are just a troll.
It was just an enjoyable wee fact...
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Are you able to use the quote function?

No

Where did I claim the SNP are speaking for the Scottish people?

You used the royal we in your arguments too many times.
EEZ

Ok then. Which part? And lets not cherry pick just one paragraph. Lets see the whole document.

Im not going to respond to this anymore as Im beginning to think you are just a troll.

No troll. Just a concerned member of the electorate who has the right to an opnion and to question comments that effect my future. And I'd be delighted if you didn't respond any more.

It was just an enjoyable wee fact..

Ok. Here's another wee fact. The founder of the SNP was detained during WW2 for being in possession of weapons.

Another one. Politicians of all persuasions lye.

Another. Support for seperation has constantly been at 30% for several years and isn't likely to be moving off that for some time.

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Ima..._Feb13_lrg.jpg

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1134952
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I don'y like passion getting in the way. Infact you'll find that there's plenty of academic research that shows that passion and emotion always lead to poorer performance.

The only thing I've cut and paste from the internet is URL links to back up my arguments from independent sources. So for example. When the SNP say they'll increase public spending and cut taxes and I find a SNP report that says exactly the oppoiste. You'll forgive me for not getting passionate or emotional.
When SNP supporters portray us as victims without a voice when we've had a high impact on politics in Westminster. You'll forgive me for not being passionate or emotional.

Opinions fine, but I prefer to debate opinion when it's backed up with empiracal evidence and studies. Not blatant biased fairy storys.

I think I've made my stand quite clear. I'm happy with what I've got at the moment. Education, Health etc are devolved matters and are controlled closer to the point of use.

What I don't however want is a riskier, unsecured future based on emotional arguments that aren't founded in truth. You need to remember. I'm in the majority. You're in the minority.

I believe that all home nations synergise each other I'd rather not be in an infinitley weaker position because one party got a majority once in what I believe is a protest vote.

You're emotional. Most of us are rational.
you have to care about what your talking a bout with a passion as if you don't what is the point. Maybe I am emotional , but at least I am not a robot relying on the internets facts which could change tomorrow , I feel your the right person to debate with as you overlook everything and you really don't care , anyone can rely on the Internet mature student it takes real guts to care on what your arguing about and allow possibilities to shine through we are clearly are not in mutual agreement so I feel it would be best to move on.
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1134952
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renewable energy, another key economic driver. Alex Salmond wants wind and waves to deliver all Scotland's electricity needs by 2020 and to sell what's left to the world.

oil from the North Sea, which along with gas is currently worth roughly £13bn annually to the UK Treasury. It would belong to Scotland, notwithstanding any legal challenge on whether or not the oil and gas reserves are actually in Scottish territorial waters.



other TV matters. Scots would still be able to digitally access telly from everywhere else. The Scottish Government would make its own decisions on which events to keep on 'free telly', such as Scotland football matches.

Washington DC, one world capital where Scotland would have an embassy. Scotland wouldn't have a diplomatic mission everywhere, but would concentrate on countries which presented commercial opportunities, like those within the Scottish diaspora.

youth vote. The SNP intends to give people the vote from the age of 16.




jobs. The SNP says there would be more of them in an independent Scotland, which is why they say they'll put jobs and the economy at the heart of a 'Yes' campaign in the forthcoming referendum.

Since some of you's rely on the internet and not base your on judgement I COPIED AND PASTED SOME WEE FACTS FOR YOU!
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Megan1234567)
you have to care about what your talking a bout with a passion as if you don't what is the point. Maybe I am emotional , but at least I am not a robot relying on the internets facts which could change tomorrow , I feel your the right person to debate with as you overlook everything and you really don't care , anyone can rely on the Internet mature student it takes real guts to care on what your arguing about and allow possibilities to shine through we are clearly are not in mutual agreement so I feel it would be best to move on.
Ok. You're right. I do care. I care alot about the future. Not only my future, but the future of my family and friends.

I care about having a secure, balanced, diversified economy that will mitigate risk and not put all our hopes in a volatile, diminishing commodity.

I care about people in general and realise that the SNPs policy of seperation is selfish as it's not going to impact the boogie man that they like to point fingers at and blame that is London and the South East. It impacts our friends in the North of England, Wales and Northern Ireland the most.

I care that these freebies such as free university education and prescriptions and council tax freezes that actually take away from the poorer members of society whilst rewarding the richer ones.

I care that even though we have higher spending per capita we're still not as good as reducing child poverty than the North West of England and the Midlands who have even less funding to cope with it.

I care that a minority of people are trying to set up a situation where I'm being told that some of my friends and family are somehow different to us.

I care about these friends and family being in a seperate country where once upon a time we they weren't. Throwing up barriers where barriers never existed before.

I care about politicians driving us headlong into an undemocratic European Union to ensure that they get on the Brussels Gravy Train. A union where 5 million wont have a voice in 500 million.

I care about having a say in the economic levers that control where I live. Which at the moment I have some democratic say over. And not the Bank of England or the European Central Bank that would be controlled by others with no say to us.

I care that we have unemployement at the moment but the SNP have chose not to spend additional funding they've received on job creation. They're happy to sit on it and try and bribe the electorate nearer the date of the referendum.

I care that our democratically elected politicians have lied to us about entry in the EU and post seperatiuon plabs.

So yes. I do care. But I won't get emotional about things.
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1134952
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Ok. You're right. I do care. I care alot about the future. Not only my future, but the future of my family and friends.

I care about having a secure, balanced, diversified economy that will mitigate risk and not put all our hopes in a volatile, diminishing commodity.

I care about people in general and realise that the SNPs policy of seperation is selfish as it's not going to impact the boogie man that they like to point fingers at and blame that is London and the South East. It impacts our friends in the North of England, Wales and Northern Ireland the most.

I care that these freebies such as free university education and prescriptions and council tax freezes that actually take away from the poorer members of society whilst rewarding the richer ones.

I care that even though we have higher spending per capita we're still not as good as reducing child poverty than the North West of England and the Midlands who have even less funding to cope with it.

I care that a minority of people are trying to set up a situation where I'm being told that some of my friends and family are somehow different to us.

I care about these friends and family being in a seperate country where once upon a time we they weren't. Throwing up barriers where barriers never existed before.

I care about politicians driving us headlong into an undemocratic European Union to ensure that they get on the Brussels Gravy Train. A union where 5 million wont have a voice in 500 million.

I care about having a say in the economic levers that control where I live. Which at the moment I have some democratic say over. And not the Bank of England or the European Central Bank that would be controlled by others with no say to us.

I care that we have unemployement at the moment but the SNP have chose not to spend additional funding they've received on job creation. They're happy to sit on it and try and bribe the electorate nearer the date of the referendum.

I care that our democratically elected politicians have lied to us about entry in the EU and post seperatiuon plabs.

So yes. I do care. But I won't get emotional about things.
Now that's an argument! It shows me on this you know what your talking about and your concerns , than simply relying on the Internet - your best answer yet!

However just because they will be in a separate country , what would be stopping you from seeing them?

I think it will be the best thing for our economy.
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JPL9457
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most scots, about 2/3 are with staying in the uk. i live in liverpool and every scotsman/woman i have asked says stay with the uk. i cannot remember what newspaper, but it said that support for independance has decreased.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Megan1234567)
renewable energy, another key economic driver. Alex Salmond wants wind and waves to deliver all Scotland's electricity needs by 2020 and to sell what's left to the world.

Alex Salmond has forgetten about the huge Subsidies that Scotland receive in relation to the renewables. No subsidy. No windmill. The UK as a whole have financed all of the renewables. We've gained the resources of 65 million people on that one. Do you really think our friends down south will be still be financing our renewables programme? Or do you think they'd finance their own?

I'm not even going to go into the flaws of renewable energy though.

oil from the North Sea, which along with gas is currently worth roughly £13bn annually to the UK Treasury. It would belong to Scotland, notwithstanding any legal challenge on whether or not the oil and gas reserves are actually in Scottish territorial waters.

Oil Prices are volatile. Nobody knows how the oilfoelds will be split up. Alex Salmond keeps claiming that it's a 90% share. That's what wants, whether or not he'll get that is a different question.

The key word is Currently £13 Bn. It was down to £2 Billion a few years back. That's the joys of a diversified economy through out the UK. It balances out Risk.

You also need to ask who's refining the oil once it's out of the ground as the refinery will be taking a cut of that money.



other TV matters. Scots would still be able to digitally access telly from everywhere else. The Scottish Government would make its own decisions on which events to keep on 'free telly', such as Scotland football matches.

So we're getting free telly now? Who's paying for this? It's been proven that even with full access to oil reserves and a stable oil price we're still running at a deficit that's only likely to incresease.

Washington DC, one world capital where Scotland would have an embassy. Scotland wouldn't have a diplomatic mission everywhere, but would concentrate on countries which presented commercial opportunities, like those within the Scottish diaspora.

Who's financing and staffing these additional 100 embassies? Oil, fish and whiskey is seen by many as a commodity. You don't need embassies to sell those.

youth vote. The SNP intends to give people the vote from the age of 16.

Will they allow 16 year olds to drink and smoke?
I was 16 once. I didn't have a clue what I was politically. I just spouted off the same politics as my parents. These days, I've made my own mind up.



jobs. The SNP says there would be more of them in an independent Scotland, which is why they say they'll put jobs and the economy at the heart of a 'Yes' campaign in the forthcoming referendum.

They said many things. Most of these jobs are to be public sector. (Although they've been found out to be saying that will not happen as they'll be cutting these jobs post seperation as we can't afford it) You seem to be implying that Westminster doesn't want people to be in work. They do.

I'm a little concerned about how we'll create these jobs though. I've heard the say we will, but not how. For example how are they planning to increase Labour Productivity rates.

The best a Western Government can do now is to set the factors that promote job creation. That involves

access to markets. We've seperated from our biggest market the UK and there's no evidence as of yet that we'll be straight into the EU.

High productivity figures. (We're doing better than most of the UK but nowehere near London or the SouthEast on that one)

Infact a basic PESTEL of the Macro Environment will highlight the obvious problems for that.


Since some of you's rely on the internet and not base your on judgement I COPIED AND PASTED SOME WEE FACTS FOR YOU!

You haven't copied and pasted facts. You've copied and pasted SNP spin that if you kept an open mind have been queried by many independant people.

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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by JPL9457)
most scots, about 2/3 are with staying in the uk. i live in liverpool and every scotsman/woman i have asked says stay with the uk. i cannot remember what newspaper, but it said that support for independance has decreased.
It hovers around 30% and has done for some time.

Do you think the reason why most Scots living down South don't want is is because they realise that people are the same and every piece of Grief Whoring the SNP spout off impacts everybody else throughout the UK not just Scotland?

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