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Do you consider UKIP good or bad? watch

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    (Original post by Smonnie)
    If you do it voluntarily, and can dissolve said agreements, how is that handing away our sovereignty?

    That's like saying that by letting your missus choose where you go for dinner, you have lost your own free will.
    No, you and the missus go to a lawyer and sign a legally binding agreement forcing you always to go where she wants for dinner.

    That gives her the ability to fine you, and force your compliance in court if you feel like going to the Italian Restaurant rather than the French one evening.

    You have lost your free will unless and until that legal agreement is revoked.

    (Original post by Smonnie)

    We can be free and independent all we like, but we will pay significantly more for everything.
    No we won't. We would go onto the WTO tariff free system vis a vis the the EU if we left.

    For the EU to impose tariffs would be pretty stupid since we have considerable trade deficit with the rest of Europe and it would cost them a lot of money.

    We would then negotiate our own trade deals with the US, China, Japan etc. Once again we would have the whip hand since we have huge trade deficits with all those countries and they will want to continue to sell to us in the same volumes.

    Why will Germany impose tariffs so we buy fewer BMW's, or Japan so we buy fewer Nikons, or China so we buy fewer of just about everything?

    They won't, Government's behave rationally in their own economic interests, unlike Student room posters.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I watched it. And I felt that Clegg did a poor job at rebutting the lies being peddled by Farage.
    The lies were being peddled by Clegg. Even this think thank, rabidly pro European admits that his 7% figure was wrong.


    http://openeuropeblog.blogspot.co.uk...stic-laws.html
    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I wouldn't agree with that. Farage was on the committee and he did nothing. He couldn't even be bothered to attend meetings.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I meant agree that Farage is working hard to bring us out of the EU. You may not support that aim, but not to concede the effort he is putting into this campaign is to fly in the face of UKIP's extraordinary success as an electoral force. Churlish too.

    He doesn't attend the meetings on principle. Unlike the failed establishment party leaders he has those.
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    (Original post by geokinkladze)
    You are talking about amending the current policy.. which effectively means the current policy won't be amended (locking in the previous "amendments").

    Now all you need to do is take a little history lesson and look at how the policy came into being.

    As I said it shows how the EU "works".




    Where did I claim such a thing? All I said was it was a good example of how the EU "works". In effect a couple of hours before Britain joined the EU the existing members (6 at that time) hashed it together in order to lock Britain into it.
    If you want a sensible and mature debate is it not fair to acknowledge your previous comments?

    Previously said by you...
    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    As long as a single law or regulation by which we must abide by law is made by unelected Brussels bureaucrats the ultimate power to make decisions relating to this country does not lie with us.
    EU law is not decided by unelected Brussels bureaucrats. Unless you are suggesting UKIP MEPs in the EU Parliament, David Cameron in the EU Council and the various government ministers in the EU Council of Ministers are unelected Brussels bureaucrats.

    :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Reformed2010)
    If you want a sensible and mature debate is it not fair to acknowledge your previous comments?
    Absolutely.. is it not also fair to attribute quotes to me that I have actually made.

    (Original post by Reformed2010)
    :rolleyes:
    I agree.
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    (Original post by geokinkladze)
    Absolutely.. is it not also fair to attribute quotes to me that I have actually made.



    I agree.
    :eek: I just realised I mixed up comments from two different users. I apologise.
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    (Original post by Reformed2010)
    :eek: I just realised I mixed up comments from two different users. I apologise.
    No worries.
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    For sone reason the types of people i've met who vote UKIP have been either:

    * Middle class Baby Boomers from small semi-rural villages.
    * Angry white men in declining ex-industrial towns who want them foreigners "arrrt of arrr countreh"
    * Pissed off Tories
    * Public house pundits



    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by datpiff)
    For sone reason the types of people i've met who vote UKIP have been either:

    * Middle class Baby Boomers from small semi-rural villages.
    * Angry white men in declining ex-industrial towns who want them foreigners "arrrt of arrr countreh"
    * Pissed off Tories
    * Public house pundits
    Where do you meet these people?

    I couldn't claim to have recently met many baby boomers from small semi-rural villages so that is interesting to know.

    P*$$3d off tories is a given but again I would say they mostly reside "darn sarf" from my experience (and the polling seems to agree).

    Angry white men in declining ex-industrial towns who speak with a "Laaarndern" accent? Guess they moved north.

    Personally I was initially surprised at how many women vote UKIP. Then I speak to them and find they are predominantly working class women in low paid jobs. Then I am not so surprised.
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    (Original post by geokinkladze)
    Personally I was initially surprised at how many women vote UKIP. Then I speak to them and find they are predominantly working class women in low paid jobs. Then I am not so surprised.
    I find it surprising - what with UKIP's stance on women in the workplace.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I find it surprising - what with UKIP's stance on women in the workplace.
    Are you surprised that men vote Labour?
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    (Original post by geokinkladze)
    Are you surprised that men vote Labour?
    No.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    No.
    I'm not surprised.
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    (Original post by geokinkladze)
    I'm not surprised.
    Well that's good...
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    (Original post by datpiff)
    For sone reason the types of people i've met who vote UKIP have been either:

    * Middle class Baby Boomers from small semi-rural villages.
    * Angry white men in declining ex-industrial towns who want them foreigners "arrrt of arrr countreh"
    * Pissed off Tories
    * Public house pundits



    Posted from TSR Mobile

    UKIP won the European Elections and have millions of voters.

    Remind everyone why anyone should give a toss about the handful, amongst the millions YOU have actually met?

    There are millions of French people in France, but the only ones I have met...

    There are millions of Africans but the only ones I have met...

    Stop stereotyping MILLIONS of people you ignorant bigot...
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    (Original post by Rooster523)
    UKIP are bad because:

    1) They wish to remove the UK from the jurisdiction of the EU court of human rights. You heard me, UKIP wants the UK not to have to abide by laws that protect fundamental human rights and freedoms.

    2) 'No to political correctness'- basically they'd like to create a platform where racist/homophobic/islamaphobic statements are no longer frowned upon. They say PC stifles free speech, I say not having it segregates society.

    3) Their entire immigration policy is based on fear and intolerance. 'Immigrants put pressure on the healthcare system'- Nope, the elderly put pressure on the healthcare system and arguably, the NHS wouldn't function without immigrants.- this is one example, there's many more but I'm not really in the mood to list every single one.

    4) Their policies are based on idealisms, not realisms. They want lower taxes but more police on the streets, improved roads. Fair enough- but where's that money going to come from?

    5) Their immigration policy will see an increase in homelessness and crimes committed by immigrants. 'Immigrants must financially support themselves for 5 years before receiving state help'. Example: A migrant worker works in the UK for 2 years, brings his family here, things are looking good. Company he works for gets made redundant, can no longer afford things, is not entitled to benefits or any state help. Begins stealing to provide for his family.


    Just a few I can think of off the top of my head
    Although I don't agree with your view, I would like to thank you for having taking the time to have actually thought about your opinion on UKIP properly. The media puts UKIP in an awful light, and people condem them off-hand without having looked at any of their policies. I would much prefer people to dislike UKIP, like yourself, once they have read their policies and made up their own minds about them, than to condem their supposed policies that don't exist.
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    (Original post by AsphodelMist)
    I would much prefer people to dislike UKIP, like yourself, once they have read their policies and made up their own minds about them, than to condem their supposed policies that don't exist.
    Here's what (s)he claims:

    (Original post by Rooster523)
    You heard me, UKIP wants the UK not to have to abide by laws that protect fundamental human rights and freedoms.
    Here's UKIP's proposal:

    (Original post by UKIP)
    We will repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it with a new British Bill of Rights
    Some argue we don't actually need a bill of rights because we already have a series of rights enshrined in law. Either way the claim that UKIP wants the UK not to have to abide by laws that protect fundamental human rights and freedoms is wrong. That was just the first one in that list of fiction.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    UKIP won the European Elections and have millions of voters.

    Remind everyone why anyone should give a toss about the handful, amongst the millions YOU have actually met?

    There are millions of French people in France, but the only ones I have met...

    There are millions of Africans but the only ones I have met...

    Stop stereotyping MILLIONS of people you ignorant bigot...
    Generalising and summing up the types of voters who vote for particular parties is completely different to summing up the population of a whole country and continent as political parties stand for particular values, attitudes and policies. Are you trying to compare my disdain for UKIP policies to racism and xenophobia? Do not go there kid.

    I also said "the types of people who i have met". I did not say "all UKIP voters are..." so what is your problem? Stop looking for drama you drama llama.
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    (Original post by datpiff)
    For sone reason the types of people i've met who vote UKIP have been either:

    * Middle class Baby Boomers from small semi-rural villages.
    * Angry white men in declining ex-industrial towns who want them foreigners "arrrt of arrr countreh"
    * Pissed off Tories
    * Public house pundits



    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Perhaps this is more a reflection of the type of company you keep rather than the suggestion of political stereotyping.
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    Its amazing how upset, pissy, irrational and annoyed UKIP supporters get in arguments. Is it just the fact that UKIP supporters have the biggest mouths on here that make it look like theres a lot of them on here (when there isn't?).

    It just annoys me to high heaven that UKIP supporters (the majority i speak to) believe that immigration is the cause of all problems in this country. If i talk to a Ukipper about housing the topic will always turn to simplified arguments about how immigation and the EU is allegedly the cause of all our problems. Housing is of course a very complicated topic with many many factors that have brought us to where we are today. To just bring up immigration and the EU as the one factor does not help anybody.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by datpiff)
    It just annoys me to high heaven that UKIP supporters (the majority i speak to) believe that immigration is the cause of all problems in this country.
    There are UKIP supporters who believe immigration is the root of our ills.
    There are UKIP supporters who believe uncontrolled immigration is the root of our ills.
    There are UKIP supporters who believe Europe is the root of our ills.

    To be fair complaining about this is akin to complaining about the green's banging on about the environment.

    If the issues are important to you then instead of getting annoyed at them banging on about it you'll instead be annoyed that others don't see it's importance.
 
 
 
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