Christianity for the most part has modernised, changed, and become less fundamental to many people's lives. It has graduated somewhat into a cultural phenomenon rather than a ideological one. Much like Judaism for many people.

Perhaps grown up is the wrong term. Many of the big religions have adapted as the rest of society grew up around them.

Isn't that the case for islam tho?..

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Reply 1143

young_guns

Original post by matthewduncan

yeah i was wrong for that and i admit that now

If you were wrong about that, what else might you be wrong about? Isn't the fact you believed that he was an actor and that it was a conspiracy a red flag, in your own mind, that perhaps you should start to reassess your own world view, your own tendency to believe things that are inherently improbable?

but you cant deny that the west rewrites history to suit them

For the most part, we don't have official, government issued history in the West. The study of history is carried out by independent academics subject to review by their peers.

What history are you claiming has been rewritten?

Reply 1144

GailQ

Original post by elhm1800

Isn't that the case for islam tho?..

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Sure. If you consider giving the death penalty to those leaving the religion, labelling rape victims as adulterers, stoning adulterers to death, amputating the hands of thieves (I could go on) to be "grown up" or adapted to the 21st century :erm:

Reply 1145

1732757

Original post by GailQ

But isnt that exactly what islam has grown up from? No one does that unless its some sort of extremist society...

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Reply 1146

GailQ

Original post by elhm1800

But isnt that exactly what islam has grown up from? No one does that unless its some sort of extremist society...

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No. The "that" you refer to is part of what is called Sharia law and I can assure you that many societies - entire countries in fact - still practice it stringently. Unless you are trying to imply that most of the Middle East is an extremist society?

Reply 1147

Fullofsurprises

Original post by young_guns

This entire episode demonstrates the fundamental weakness of the Islamofascists, a spasm of violence that says everything about how they lack strength, or ideological coherence

Their best bet is to attack soft targets, like newspapers and supermarkets, and murder civilians and target women and children; they are cowards, and their ideology is a dead end.

Since 2001, they haven't pulled off a single spectacular attack, and no large-scale attacks in the West since 2005.

On the other hand, we've killed over 50,000 Islamofascists since the start of the War on Terror. We are becoming stronger and better at dealing with terrorism (see all the terrorist plots foiled by the Metropolitan Police).

Islamofascists have literally no answers to the fundamental social and economic questions of the 21st century, and like Hitler they are finding to their detriment just how formidable an opponent an aroused democracy can be

I agree with some of that, but I don't think we can be quite so confident that the anti-'fascist' side is 'winning', given that the Jihadis now have their own country, which they didn't before and are on the edge of having several more. (Yemen and presumably Afghanistan as soon as the US packs up and leaves it to the Taliban.)

I also don't think that 'Islamofascist' is really all that accurate. What really motivated these people? Hamza is in the mix (perhaps predictably) as are ISIS, but surely we should look at Algeria if we want to really get to the bottom of this. Like Egypt, Algeria originally had a reasonably moderate and idealistic Islamic-tinged democratic movement that was suppressed with the most appalling brutality. The cruelty directed at those who opposed the tyranny of the French-supported government of Algeria over many years is amongst the worst of any country in the world. Against that background, is it totally surprising that young men from poor backgrounds with few prospects in a country that practises public contempt and hate for their religion almost as a state-sanctioned activity and who must be fully aware of the history of their country are extremely angry?

They are prey to every passing fanatic with a plausible message aimed at giving them some feeling of worthiness and meeting their desire for revenge.

I am not condoning their actions, but there is so much ignorance on this in France and here. The French would prefer to forget their imperialistic oppression of Algeria and also choose to permit vitriolic attacks on Muslim beliefs as a way of life. Is that right?

Reply 1148

1732757

Original post by GailQ

Excluding beirut- great place to party in- I would definitely say the majority of the middle east is extreme.

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Reply 1149

El Salvador

Original post by Naima_786

Of course I have, what are you trying to say?

By not allowing me to draw something, you're offending me and violating my religious rights.

Why must I cater to your religious views and you cannot cater to mine that everybody should be able to draw anyone?

Reply 1150

mariachi

Original post by SiminaM

Then what is the difference between offending someone for their skin color or for their religion and culture? Why is racism seen as a bad thing if mocking a religion/culture is seen as an act of freedom of speech?

what you say has nothing to do with the massacre

if you think that a cartoon goes against the law, you file a case. In fact, several cases were filed against Charlie Hebdo, but (to my knowledge) they always won.

The law is our common rule, and the basis of civil society. If you take up the law in your hands, you are wrong. The judges determine if a cartoon or an article go against the law

People are offended for the most various and even futile reasons. You cannot follow everyone's whims and desires

E.g., the Quran says that "unbelievers are the vilest of animals". I am deeply, deeply offended. The Quran should be prohibited.

Reply 1151

GailQ

Original post by elhm1800

Excluding beirut- great place to party in- I would definitely say the majority of the middle east is extreme.

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Well then, good. I'm glad we can agree to conclude that Islam has indeed not "grown up". :smile:

Reply 1152

Mackay

Come on Guardian journalists, we need more columns on Charlie Hebdo. NOW.

Reply 1153

young_guns

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I am not condoning their actions, but there is so much ignorance on this in France and here. The French would prefer to forget their imperialistic oppression of Algeria and also choose to permit vitriolic attacks on Muslim beliefs as a way of life. Is that right?

These two miscreants were born in France, what basis do they have to claim their attack was based on France's actions in Algeria decades before they were born, or the actions of the Algerian government when they never even lived there?

The fact one of the brothers had been caught with child pornography speaks volumes about character and motivations.

Reply 1154

young_guns

Original post by Mackay

Come on Guardian journalists, we need more columns on Charlie Hebdo. NOW.

Not only do we need more columns, we need more columns telling us how in the wake of this event we need to scrutinise the West and its racism and failure to make Muslims feel comfortable. We need columns to tell us how Islam means Peace and this attack had nothing to do with religion, and if you question that you are a bigot. We need columns to take the spotlight off the perpetrators of actual murders and put it on our supposed failings

Reply 1155

Jesuisunpoulet

I live in France and all of you English racists make me laught. Don't spread your racial ideology into our country, unlike in the UK in France you are not judged by your race/religion but by your character. I am a French Sri Lankan , and we all know that those people were religious extremists like Ander Breivik , who was brainwashed by EDL.I am proud to say that I love France/my french brothers(including muslims. You English people won't break us!

Reply 1156

Josb

Original post by mariachi

They have been condemned several times when they defamed or clearly insulted someone. The most famous case was when they qualified Marine Le Pen's sister of "Chienne de Buchenwald" (=the bitch [the animal] of Buchenwald).
Otherwise all religious complaints were rejected.

Reply 1157

Borgia

Original post by Jesuisunpoulet

Marie Le Pen might.

Reply 1158

Jesuisunpoulet

Original post by Borgia

Marie Le Pen might.

Most of people in France , hate Marine Le Pen and Le Front national. It's not like in the UK

Reply 1159

Josb

Original post by Jesuisunpoulet

Most of people in France , hate Marine Le Pen and Le Front national. It's not like in the UK

Many people like Marine Le Pen in France, otherwise she wouldn't score more than 20% in the polls. I bet she will break the far-right record in the next elections.