Muslims, who do you put first? Watch

Poll: Muslims, who do you put first?
My fellow countrymen (17)
8.21%
My Muslim brothers and sisters (74)
35.75%
I'm not a Muslim (116)
56.04%
Sakujo
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#101
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#101
(Original post by Diaz89)
What are you trying to achieve with this thread? that Muslims can't be loyal to the UK? This isn't the case, there's moral loyalty and there's national loyalty.

The Islamic religion commands believers to obey the laws of the land they live in, even if it be one ruled by nonbelievers. Muslim jurists consider citizenship (or visa) to be a covenant (aqd) held between the citizen (or visa holder) and the state, one which guarantees safe passage/security (amaan) in exchange for certain obligations (such as obeying the laws of the land); covenants are considered sacredly binding in Islam. The Quran commands:

And fulfill every covenant. Verily, you will be held accountable with regard to the covenants. (Quran, 17:34)

The Quran condemns those who break covenants as not being true believers:

It is not the case that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throws it aside. Nay! The truth is most of them believe not. (Quran, 2:100)

The Islamic prophet Muhammad described the religious hypocrite as follows:

When he enters into a covenant, he proves treacherous. (Sahih al-Bukhari)

Citizenship is called in Islamic legal parlance as a “covenant of security” (aqd al-aman). For over a thousand years, Muslim scholars have rigorously affirmed the binding nature of the covenant of security. This covenant of security can be of two types: (1) a contractual agreement or (2) a customary understanding.

A Muslim is obliged to keep to his word, and thus this oath is religiously binding upon him.


In regards to helping those oppressed abroad, Muslims are expected to help them but you should never betray the covenant that you hold with your nation,

If [your coreligionists] ask for your aid in religion, then you must help them, except against people with whom you have covenants with. (Quran, 8:72)

So next time, try to be appropriate in the matter and stop being backhanded with your provocatory ways.
Nicely put. I would like to add as a serious answer to this question about loyalty, that the loyalty of a Muslim is with those that are doing good. For example, once the Prophet (PBUH) said that "You should help your brother whether he is right or wrong", the companions were shocked at this as it was a pre-Islamic saying, the Prophet (PBUH) clarified "Help your brother when he is right by encouraging him and help your brother when he is wrong by discouraging him."
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najeezy
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#102
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#102
(Original post by sanz133)
To living memory, you have not replied to my comment.
try quoting, its the orange box in the corner of the post you want to comment on.
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User414413
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#103
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#103
(Original post by najeezy)
State the source/context, it looks like random people are being asked.
Harvard good enough for you?

http://hir.harvard.edu/index.php?pag...cle&id=1619&p=

Harvard have provided a similar analysis as to me, but they go more in depth.
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username328860
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#104
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#104
(Original post by ibysaiyan)
Indeed this. My dad who lives in saudi gets surprised most of the time by the behavior of these Muslims who look to exterminate people(wouldn't call them a Muslim) and yet live in this very country,pay the tax but are hypocrites?
yeah, however you cant just expect a muslim british person, to just pick up things and move to a Islamic country its not as easy as that. Its a real tough question and a dilema really for a british muslim.
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Sakujo
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#105
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#105
(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)


I think you should look at that OP. It shows that 57% London Muslims identify themselves with their country and 69% with their religion. In contrast to, the UK public in which 48% of them identify themselves with their country and 30% with their religion.

Also, it shows that 63% of London Muslims prefer to live in an area that is made up of people from their ethnic and religious backgrounds. In contrast to the UK public in which only 58% of the UK public would like to live in an area that is made up of people of the same religious and ethnic background.

This is interesting because Paris Muslim equally identify with their country and religion, whereas the Berlin Muslims identify more with their religion. In contrast to, the French public in which more identify with their country, than their religion. Also, German public identify themselves more with their country than their religion, but only by 8%.

In addition, the Paris Muslims would like prefer to live with people from their ethnic and religious backgrounds, same with the French public but the Paris Muslims prefer to live in people of the same religious and ethnic background 19% more. The Berlin Muslims also prefer by 71% to live in an area which is made up of people of the same religious and ethnic background. Whereas, only 55% of the German public would like to live in an area made up of people of the same religious and ethic background.

Point being? Like I said, it's not zero sum, Muslims may put Muslims "first" (whatever that means) but that doesn't necessarly mean the country doesn't come a close second.
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Neelam1982
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#106
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#106
(Original post by ibysaiyan)
wow your sig. is massive.

Am glad you like it
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Diaz89
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#107
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#107
(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Harvard good enough for you?

http://hir.harvard.edu/index.php?pag...cle&id=1619&p=

Harvard have provided a similar analysis as to me, but they go more in depth.
Which refutes what you're trying to put across, did you actually read the analysis?
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Tainted
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#108
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#108
(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Basically are you a Muslim first, British second? Or British first, Muslim second?
Muslim is to do with religion and British is a nationality . Someone can be both. I am a British Muslim.

Am I making sense? LOL
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User414413
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#109
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#109
(Original post by Sakujo)
Point being? Like I said, it's not zero sum, Muslims may put Muslims "first" (whatever that means) but that doesn't necessarly mean the country doesn't come a close second.
Why are you on my case? The OP has asked a simple questions. Some Muslims seems to be giving him a hard time for asking this question. Therefore, I have provided him with an answer. I never stated Muslims hate their country, I simply stated that they identify themselves more with their religion, then their countrymen and prefer to live in an area made up of people of the same religious and ethic background.
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najeezy
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#110
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#110
(Original post by Neelam1982)
Am glad you like it
your sig is in someway similar to mine, you must change it :p:
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Broderss
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#111
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#111
(Original post by najeezy)
i meant the UK, but since im here i wanna take the time out to congratulate you on your excellent comprehension skills, on behalf of most people here, well done.
lol you're Lebanese. I'm smarter than you by default.
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ibysaiyan
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#112
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#112
(Original post by Tainted)
Muslim is to do with religion and British is a nationality . Someone can be both. I am a British Muslim.

Am I making sense? LOL
Yes its to do with a thing called Islam which is a way of life.
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ibysaiyan
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#113
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#113
(Original post by Broderss)
lol you're Lebanese. I'm smarter than you by default.
Why have you got an enormous,bulging Cranium with 10x times more grey matter than a Muslim by default ^^ ?
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User414413
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#114
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#114
(Original post by Diaz89)
Which refutes what you're trying to put across, did you actually read the analysis?
Yes and in what way does it refute my point? It states that Muslims identify themselves more with their religion. I did to. It states Muslims prefer to live in an area that is made up of similar religious and ethnic background. I did to. It goes further to say that Muslims even though religious, don’t sympathize with extremist and such. I didn’t see any point in me doing so, because it would be going off-topic.
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Sakujo
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#115
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#115
(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Why are you on my case? The OP has asked a simple questions. Some Muslims seems to be giving him a hard time for asking this question. Therefore, I have provided him with an answer. I never stated Muslims hate their country, I simply stated that they identify themselves more with their religion, then their countrymen and prefer to live in an area made up of people of the same religious and ethic background.
I'm not on your case at all, I've told others the same thing as what I told you.

Some Muslims are giving him a hard time because its a pathetically bad question equivalent to "Are you male or do you like chocolate?".
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452436
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#116
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#116
(Original post by najeezy)
try quoting, its the orange box in the corner of the post you want to comment on.
I did it was that huge verse on adultery that living memory had found, I think he just ignored it
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LivingMemory
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#117
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#117
(Original post by najeezy)
both your suggestion is terrible stupid and ignorant, since you are suggesting content present in a "holy script" something undeniably idiotic, secondly these values are expressed in both christianity and both judaism, nice googling, but muslims adapt to modern day times and situations, have you seen any adulteres in the uk being stoned? ok please dont make suggestions of content that over a billion people take to be "absolute truth".
Well obviously I googled it, I don't know the Quran and I'm not pretending that I do - I don't know a single verse. I just found a verse that showed less tolerance than the ones that I was shown earlier. There's no need to be quite so aggressive, I haven't said anything even mildly offensive to you. Is trying to mock my intelligence really relevant to the discussion? I'd urge you to take those insults back - although I suppose you won't.

Look, I was earlier given verses to prove Islam's tolerance, all I was doing was finding verses that show a different side - which show the good ones were cherry picked. If verses fundamentally can't disprove Islam's tolerance, then they can't prove its tolerance either, right? I agree that bad passages in the Quran say nothing bad about the individual Muslim's morality - but also good passages can't say anything good about the morality of Muslims, so why on every single Islam related thread on this site are there hundreds of quotes and verses supposedly displaying how tolerant Muslims are?
Don't you think it's a double standard to quote verses that make Muslims look good, but downplay the ones that don't? Even calling bringing them up "terrible stupid and ignorant" and "undeniably idiotic" - well ... was Ibysaiyan being idiotic by quoting tolerant passages to me first earlier?

Finally, I'm an atheist, I don't condone Christianity or Judaism for even a second. Although I would point out that all the famous passages about God's hatred are from the Old Testament, the New Testament is consistently tolerant.
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User414413
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#118
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#118
(Original post by Sakujo)
I'm not on your case at all, I've told others the same thing as what I told you.

Some Muslims are giving him a hard time because its a pathetically bad question equivalent to "Are you male or do you like chocolate?".
Ok, then. I have answered his question for him.
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Neelam1982
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#119
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#119
(Original post by sanz133)
You are determined to find fault in islam, these punishments are regarding adultery, which is horrible, if everyone was let off easily, then they would do it again and others would follow.

I am a muslim, and I am looking at this verse through an islamic perspective. Its trying to show how draconium this sin is, and how hated by Allah it is. Can you think of the mental anguish that would befall the person who has been cheated upon. It is a warning, to tell you not to commit such acts.

But if you want to begin quoting aq Transalation of the quran then I will find you another verse to look at. this is an hadith.

Allah the Almighty has said: “O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its.”

And this is another story, which shows its not just the deeds but the intentions too.

2) Prophet (SW) has said:

A certain person had committed 99 murders. He went to a scholar and asked, is there any chance of my being forgiven? The scholar said no, you have committed too many crimes. The man killed the scholar too, but his heart was restless, so he went to another scholar and asked the same question. He was told yes, but you must leave this town of bad people and go live in the next town in the company of good people.

So the man set out to the town he was told to go to. On the way he died. A man passing by saw two angels arguing over his dead body. The Angel from Hell said, 'His body belongs to me as he had not done any good in his life.' The Angel from Heaven said, 'His body belongs to me as he had repented and was set out to be with good people.' The man who was the passer-by said, 'Let us measure the distance of his body from the town he left and the town he was going to.'

This was done. He was found to be nearer to the town he was going to. In another version, the earth was ordered by Allah to shrink and make the distance smaller, so that he was admitted to Heaven.

I hope this helps

Amazing stories, Alham dulilah! :o:
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najeezy
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#120
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#120
(Original post by Broderss)
lol you're Lebanese. I'm smarter than you by default.
Lebanon > UK. You've clearly shown how smart you are today anyway, so need to prove we can all judge for ourselves.
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