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Is bullfighting the sickest spectacle on earth? Watch

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    I'm sure many other cultures would find the way meat production is done in Europe a form of torture intended for pleasure. For example, male pigs are sterilised without any anaesthetics, they just chop up their reproductive organs. That's done because the meat of sterilised pigs tastes better.

    Or the tiny cages pigs and chicken spend their lives in.

    But I guess that's fine because we don't see it on TV.
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    (Original post by Bellrosk)
    'The art in which the bullfighter evades the bull' is it really an art though? Now I could understand such descriptions if we're talking about boxing or a similar form of combat where humans of equal intelligence are pitted against each other. That requires speed and quick thinking (as well as brute strength). The same, I'm afraid can't be said about bull fighting as the fact remains that the beast has a brain a quarter of the size of the human brain and clearly is in a bewildered state, charging in a frenzied manner at a sheet the fighter antagonistically waves before it. This is not a match of equals, the humans clearly have the upper hand and thus there is no way this sort of spectacle can be called an 'art'.

    I understand the repercussions of ignoring cultural relativism and do not wish to radiate Western ignorance. But this is Spain we are talking about, a country most would argue is a modern, developed and forward thinking nation. The cruelty of bullfighting is not appropriate to such a nation. This is barely British colonialism speaking seeing as Spain is an influential member of the EU in which relatively standardized values are instilled.
    Interesting.

    I would agree that in it's present state, it is not an art. However, cut out the physical nastiness and what you are left with is just as much an art as top-level football or indeed any sport. It is a display of physical prowess. A bull is big (I believe the technical term is bloody huge), fast, and can turn on a dime. The closest I've gotten to bullfighting was being chased round by a calf, and I can tell you that was not at all easy.

    Don't worry, you're not radiating Western ignorance (I do generally consider Spain to be part of the West after all). As to the fact that unnecessary cruelty exists, I agree 100%, as I have stated before.

    I wasn't arguing against modification of bullfighting, rather stepping in to lend some balance to the thread.
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    (Original post by Eldedu)
    Are you going to attack my daydreams, or offer some form of counterargument? Because that, my...well not good...my sir, was below the belt.

    Edit: It has been edited from it's former condition of vaguely recalled general knowledge to something more in tune with your exacting demand for fact.
    hmmm. that's a little better, at least you have now remembered that the Egyptians had slaves thousands of years before the british, but its still technically incorrect. both in terms of "most" of the population of an entire continent (clearly ridiculous) and even the idea that English merchants were the ones who did the enslaving. In a large proportion of cases, the English merchants simply bought people who had already been enslaved by other African tribes.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    But at the same time the Animal is treated rather savagely itself. I mean a spear to impale your shoulder muscles, then another, then another, the intent firstly to weaken you, then latter to focus your rage, is hardly right surely? Then the pain of the lance itself throughout the performance. Obviously on occasion the bull is spared from death, but it's not the norm. I've seen one type of bullfighting, I assume not Spanish, where the bull had an object on fire on it's head, I wasn't sure if it was an attachment to the banderillas but the fact was the bull was clearly distressed and seemed to be being burnt.

    Unlike other animals we can reflect on our actions, we can..or should..empathise with things. They have the same type of nervous system we do, they clearly react to pain with anger, fear, distress. Maybe they don't have our entire spectrum of emotion or the ability to comprehend exactly what is happening(they're going to die) but surely as a higher intelligence we have a burden of responsibility?
    I repeat for your benefit, I am not for cruelty to bulls. I am not for sensationalism or self-righteousness either. Yes the violence the bull is submitted to is unnecessary and should be stopped. But no this doesn't mean that bullfighting fans are savage, brutish sub-humans with a thirst for blood, nor does it mean all Spaniards are like this (I know it wasn't you who said this I'm just explaining why I posted in this thread).

    I'm not proud to say that the flaming bull is indeed a Spanish custom (it occurs anually in one of the most backward towns in Spain, and the government has already moved to stop it motivated by public outrage). Hopefully it will not remain a custom for long.

    I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

    Great Britain has already restricted fox-hunting, to the credit of all of you. Hopefully Spain will do the same with violent bullfighting.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    hmmm. that's a little better, at least you have now remembered that the Egyptians had slaves thousands of years before the british, but its still technically incorrect. both in terms of "most" of the population of an entire continent (clearly ridiculous) and even the idea that English merchants were the ones who did the enslaving. In a large proportion of cases, the English merchants simply bought people who had already been enslaved by other African tribes.
    As regards your first point, you're clearly not familiar with hyperbole. As regards the second one, why did these other tribes enslave them? Because they knew the merchants would buy them.

    But you're dragging me exactly where I don't have any interest in going, into a historical reproach-fest.

    If you have anything to say about bullfighting, that would be nice. If you want to apologise for going out of the way to crush my wishes for top-notch higher education, that would be nicer. If not, I really don't have anything else to discuss with you.
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    I personally don't agree with hunting/killing for sport, and I support the fox hunting ban, BUT as this is not our country I don't think we have a right to wander in and tell them to ban it.
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    (Original post by F.I)
    Exactly!
    +rep for you :p:
    It must be nice to never have exaggerated anything in the heat of the moment.
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    (Original post by Eldedu)
    As regards your first point, you're clearly not familiar with hyperbole. As regards the second one, why did these other tribes enslave them? Because they knew the merchants would buy them.

    But you're dragging me exactly where I don't have any interest in going, into a historical reproach-fest.

    If you have anything to say about bullfighting, that would be nice. If you want to apologise for going out of the way to crush my wishes for top-notch higher education, that would be nicer. If not, I really don't have anything else to discuss with you.
    You seem to be taking this very personally. I'm not going to pass on your lack of historical knowledge to the admissions tutor at Balliol, I promise.

    (just so you know, slavery was extremely common in Africa for centuries before the Europeans got involved. I don't think you can pin that at the Brits' door).

    I've already made a comment about bullfighting. I think everyone who is strongly opposed to it should read Death in the Afternoon in order to have a properly balanced opinion.
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    (Original post by Eldedu)
    It must be nice to never have exaggerated anything in the heat of the moment.
    I just thought what he said was hilarious, by all means apply to Balliol.

    Also, having just watched some disgusting videos of bullfighting I stand firm by my beliefs that it should be banned - not only is it horrible for the bull but it is also very dangerous.
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    You seem to be taking this very personally. I'm not going to pass on your lack of historical knowledge to the admissions tutor at Balliol, I promise.

    (just so you know, slavery was extremely common in Africa for centuries before the Europeans got involved. I don't think you can pin that at the Brits' door).

    I've already made a comment about bullfighting. I think everyone who is strongly opposed to it should read Death in the Afternoon in order to have a properly balanced opinion.
    Please don't.

    If I'm taking this personally it's only because it's hugely important to me. Frivolous perhaps but there you go.

    I sort of knew that, thanks anyway, just needed ammunition and used whatever came to mind...my first instinct was to mention Trafalgar but then I realised why that was a bad idea.

    I think everybody should read Hemingway regardless of opinions, or even for no reason at all, so I'd say that I agree.
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    (Original post by F.I)
    I just thought what he said was hilarious, by all means apply to Balliol.

    Also, having just watched some disgusting videos of bullfighting I stand firm by my beliefs that it should be banned - not only is it horrible for the bull but it is also very dangerous.
    I hope to see you there in a few years time.

    Stand firmly all you want, but don't reach for the "ban it" conclusion quite so quickly. I'm going to assume that what you found disgusting was the violence done unto the bull. This is unnecessary and can be stopped, without banning bullfighting, which I think manages to accomplish at least partially the objectives of both pro-bullfighting activists and anti-bullfighting ones.

    As for danger, good point, that's something that hasn't been raised before. I think that at the end of the day, it's not much more dangerous than say B.A.S.E. jumping (in fact probably less), so if people have the ability and desire to make a living from it let them.
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    (Original post by Eldedu)
    I hope to see you there in a few years time.

    Stand firmly all you want, but don't reach for the "ban it" conclusion quite so quickly. I'm going to assume that what you found disgusting was the violence done unto the bull. This is unnecessary and can be stopped, without banning bullfighting, which I think manages to accomplish at least partially the objectives of both pro-bullfighting activists and anti-bullfighting ones.

    As for danger, good point, that's something that hasn't been raised before. I think that at the end of the day, it's not much more dangerous than say B.A.S.E. jumping (in fact probably less), so if people have the ability and desire to make a living from it let them.
    Hopefully

    I will remain cautious on this topic, only because I don't know much about it but how is possible for bullfighting to continue without harming the bull?
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    (Original post by Eldedu)
    I repeat for your benefit, I am not for cruelty to bulls. I am not for sensationalism or self-righteousness either. Yes the violence the bull is submitted to is unnecessary and should be stopped. But no this doesn't mean that bullfighting fans are savage, brutish sub-humans with a thirst for blood, nor does it mean all Spaniards are like this (I know it wasn't you who said this I'm just explaining why I posted in this thread).

    I'm not proud to say that the flaming bull is indeed a Spanish custom (it occurs anually in one of the most backward towns in Spain, and the government has already moved to stop it motivated by public outrage). Hopefully it will not remain a custom for long.

    I agree with your last paragraph entirely.

    Great Britain has already restricted fox-hunting, to the credit of all of you. Hopefully Spain will do the same with violent bullfighting.
    yeah I understand, it's a historical thing for Spanish people and so I'd actually suggest many in the audience don't really think about what exactly is going on. I mean they're watching it and all but are they actually realising the spears are puncturing muscle, how painful that would be, how the bull is basically desperately fighting to survive. I doubt it, it's like most things in life, people often can't appreciate something unless they have to go through it themselves, not saying people who watch the sport need impaling by flaming spears mind. But a little more education.

    Bullying is a good example, although some bullies are just warped individuals who enjoy seeing suffering and pain, others who carry out more minor bullying, say girls making fun of a single girl, likely don't comprehend the impact it is having.
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    (Original post by F.I)
    Hopefully

    I will remain cautious on this topic, only because I don't know much about it but how is possible for bullfighting to continue without harming the bull?
    The only reason the bull is harmed is to "make it angry enough to charge" and ultimately, lets face it, to add a bit of drama to the spectacle.

    But realistically, put a wild bull in an arena full of 50,000 people, and whether you hurt it or not it's going to attack anything it sees. Therefore the bullfighter can still showcase his bullfighting skills, and nobody (hopefully) gets hurt.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    yeah I understand, it's a historical thing for Spanish people and so I'd actually suggest many in the audience don't really think about what exactly is going on. I mean they're watching it and all but are they actually realising the spears are puncturing muscle, how painful that would be, how the bull is basically desperately fighting to survive. I doubt it, it's like most things in life, people often can't appreciate something unless they have to go through it themselves, not saying people who watch the sport need impaling by flaming spears mind. But a little more education.

    Bullying is a good example, although some bullies are just warped individuals who enjoy seeing suffering and pain, others who carry out more minor bullying, say girls making fun of a single girl, likely don't comprehend the impact it is having.
    There probably is a small hardcore of psychopaths, but I think most people, as you say, don't fully realise what they are seeing. In addition the atmosphere in a bullring is incredible (especially the larger ones) and its all very thrilling and gallant until the bull starts gushing blood and screaming. Which I suppose is first overlooked and then ignored altogether by bullfighting fans as they acclimatize to the sport.

    Bear in mind that about 45% of Spaniards are for a ban or restriction on bullfighting, so awareness is growing.
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    (Original post by Eldedu)
    There probably is a small hardcore of psychopaths, but I think most people, as you say, don't fully realise what they are seeing. In addition the atmosphere in a bullring is incredible (especially the larger ones) and its all very thrilling and gallant until the bull starts gushing blood and screaming. Which I suppose is first overlooked and then ignored altogether by bullfighting fans as they acclimatize to the sport.

    Bear in mind that about 45% of Spaniards are for a ban or restriction on bullfighting, so awareness is growing.
    aye that's good. Still their are more pressing issues in my opinion, I'll admit I do put human suffering above that of animals for the most part and so the examples I gave are more needing of change. Obviously public flogging and stoning isn't all that common...those sorts of views, especially of females as pretty much property still exists as it had done since Biblical times. Those views will be harder to change...
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    Rats don't think at all. They don't sit there thinking "mmm this is a tasty piece of cheese, or ow that hurts, why does this damn human keep poking me?" Neither do dolphins for that matter. This is hardly a controversial statement, its been known by science for years. They simply react via instinct. Clearly, even the most generous definition of "conscious" would involve the ability to possess a thought. Animals simply don't possess a sufficiently advanced brain for anythingeven remotely approaching conscious thought to be possible.

    Now it may be the case that the most extreme examples of intelligence in animals, those with more developed front cortexes such as chimps and dolphins, have something that borders upon this ability. But to suggest that animals in general are any more conscious than plants is simply incorrect. Plants do feel pain remember, by any functional definition of pain.
    This just simply isn't true, google the definition of consciousness. Thought is an act of consciousness, not consciousness itself. When I feel pain I am conscious of it, but it is not a thought. I'm not saying animals have thoughts about things in the same way we do but they certainly have feelings and urges, which count as consciousness. Plants do not have a central nervous system and so can't process feeling and urges. All animals that have central nervous systems have consciousness. Humans are animals too, you know. We just have more advanced brains and so a more advanced consciousness. Plants don't have a central nervous system and so don't have consciousness and don't feel pain in any sense that humans or other animals do.
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    what about adults who rape babies :pierre:
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    (Original post by flowermaster91)
    what about adults who rape babies :pierre:
    In what culture is the public rape of children a commonplace?
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    (Original post by Bellrosk)
    In what culture is the public rape of children a commonplace?
    what are you on about? the op asked whether bullfighting was the sickest spectacle on earth, and i stated something is which is more sick. And yes people do do that, which is disgusting
 
 
 
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