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Black people/Santa/Jesus on the front of xmas cards & racial prejudice at xmas Watch

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    Mary and Joseph were from Palestine and could have been anything from quite white to dark brown.

    Santa is a Dutch mythological figure (sinterclaas) so would be portrayed as very white with a red face (in the cold).

    When did Middle Eastern and Dutch figure become African?

    Oh - and the Grinch is green.
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    If he existed, Jesus probably would have had the complexion of an Israeli.
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    (Original post by shinytoy)
    if race doesnt matter then why is this image uncomfortable? if race doesnt matter then why are there not a diversity of different races represented in xmas cards? maybe people might like to give someone a xmas card with an image they can relate to? it is easy to say 'race doesnt matter' when it is YOUR race that is unanamously represented on EVERY SINGLE mainstream xmas card. if you walk into clintons cards, i can see why you would think race is not an issue - because there is no race other than the white race on cards!!!!

    as for your point 'it has always been that way, why change it', does that mean Barbie should always be blond because it was always that way? does that mean apartheid in South Africa shouldnt have ended? does that mean the president of the states had always been white, so Obama shouldnt have been allowed to become president because having a white president 'had always been the way, why change it?'

    it is easy to ignore issues of race when you are enjoying white privlidge and you cannot see what you have. even though something 'has always been that way' doesnt mean it has to STAY that way for our future generations. sometimes these prejudices NEED to change to advance ethnic diversity. not black rights, not white rights but EQUALITY.
    Firstly, I said I wouldn't find it uncomfortable. It generally helps to read before you reply.

    You are stupid. Seriously.

    I can't think of any normal person who is against equality. What I don't like is change for the sake of making a point that doesn't need to be made.

    Not to mention the fact that if we are telling kids that Santa exists, there must only be one of him, and he isn't going to change race just like that is he? Morons.

    Also, you are making assumptions about my race. How do you know i'm white? You don't, but you think that because i disagree with you, I must be some kind of blonde, blue eyed white nazi. You racist.
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    (Original post by Some random guy)
    That is actually a pretty accurate depiction.

    Pretty much. But the Jesus of the Bible over the past few hundred years, the one that retards still love to follow, is totally a whitey.


    Regardless of how you believe the myth of Santa to have come about; Greek, Dutch, Germanic, Alpine, whatever, he most certainly wasn't blax.



    Meh. People can worship a purple Jesus and have a T. rex Santa for all I care.
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    I would have assumed that Jesus, Mary and Joseph would have had an arabic complexion, not white but not black either.

    In regard to the original question though, I'm quite used to the image of Czarna Madonna as I have Polish roots so I don't think I'd think much of cards depicting a black holy family.

    I'd probably be surprised by a black santa though. Haven't really seen many black santas around.
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    (Original post by 8086)
    Firstly, I said I wouldn't find it uncomfortable. It generally helps to read before you reply.

    You are stupid. Seriously.

    I can't think of any normal person who is against equality. What I don't like is change for the sake of making a point that doesn't need to be made.

    Not to mention the fact that if we are telling kids that Santa exists, there must only be one of him, and he isn't going to change race just like that is he? Morons.

    Also, you are making assumptions about my race. How do you know i'm white? You don't, but you think that because i disagree with you, I must be some kind of blonde, blue eyed white nazi. You racist.
    well? are you white? theres no way a first gen ethnic would think that way.

    YOU sir are the stupid racist. not to mention totally blinded by white privlige that you cant even see what race is. i am asking for equal rights and proportionate racial represetation. i dont understand any reason why you would be opposed to this other than racism

    the issue is this. the UK is a white majority. but by making white the norm, ie all fictional characters assumed white by default because, most people are white, reinforces the idea of ethnics as 'other' and marginalises them.

    a child growing up should not feel marginalised by their race. santa is not real, therefore he could be any colour even if the actual origin was white. if a brown kid wants an image of a brown bearded dude climbing down the chimney with gifts why cant they have that?

    the attitude of people like you is like 'the uk us a white country, we have given ethnics the race relations act shut up and be grateful' will never acheive racial equality.

    for racial equality to exist, you cannot have one race being mariginalised and sidelined, effectively segregated because although there will not be overt racism, there will be racial prejudice.

    and that is clear from many of the responses on this thread, and the many white people who think the colour of someones skin gives them the right to ask them personali questions about their religion, ancestry, whether they wash their hair, whether it is their own hair, or even going up and touching a black persona hair without asking.

    and even though i am asking for black people to have some, even 1% representation in the mainstream christmas media, everyone on this thread is telling me to shut up and calling me ethnocentric and choose only from the 1000s of white people cards there are out there. this is not just about cards but indicative of deeper racial imbalance and ethnic marginalisation in society

    you probably dont have the intelligence to understand what im saying so go back to reading the pages of the sun for information about lax immigration laws and why to vote BNP.
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    (Original post by shinytoy)
    well? are you white? theres no way a first gen ethnic would think that way.

    YOU sir are the stupid racist. not to mention totally blinded by white privlige that you cant even see what race is. i am asking for equal rights and proportionate racial represetation. i dont understand any reason why you would be opposed to this other than racism

    the issue is this. the UK is a white majority. but by making white the norm, ie all fictional characters assumed white by default because, most people are white, reinforces the idea of ethnics as 'other' and marginalises them.

    a child growing up should not feel marginalised by their race. santa is not real, therefore he could be any colour even if the actual origin was white. if a brown kid wants an image of a brown bearded dude climbing down the chimney with gifts why cant they have that?

    the attitude of people like you is like 'the uk us a white country, we have given ethnics the race relations act shut up and be grateful' will never acheive racial equality.

    for racial equality to exist, you cannot have one race being mariginalised and sidelined, effectively segregated because although there will not be overt racism, there will be racial prejudice.

    and that is clear from many of the responses on this thread, and the many white people who think the colour of someones skin gives them the right to ask them personali questions about their religion, ancestry, whether they wash their hair, whether it is their own hair, or even going up and touching a black persona hair without asking.

    and even though i am asking for black people to have some, even 1% representation in the mainstream christmas media, everyone on this thread is telling me to shut up and calling me ethnocentric and choose only from the 1000s of white people cards there are out there. this is not just about cards but indicative of deeper racial imbalance and ethnic marginalisation in society

    you probably dont have the intelligence to understand what im saying so go back to reading the pages of the sun for information about lax immigration laws and why to vote BNP.
    Why change the cards? That is just making a point of the differences for no reason. Santa is white, has always been white, and where is the issue with that? Why can't he be white? Why does he need to be all sorts of colours now? So that people can feel good about themselves and how they're not racist because they made some cards with an ethnic santa? Ridiculous.

    Please tell me again how this helps to fight racism, and how I am racist, without the hyperbole.
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    (Original post by 8086)
    Why change the cards? That is just making a point of the differences for no reason. Santa is white, has always been white, and where is the issue with that? Why can't he be white? Why does he need to be all sorts of colours now? So that people can feel good about themselves and how they're not racist because they made some cards with an ethnic santa? Ridiculous.

    Please tell me again how this helps to fight racism, and how I am racist, without the hyperbole.
    re-read my post you have quoted?!
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    (Original post by shinytoy)
    i see what you mean, its like when Rimmel brought out a range of makeup for non white skin, but had to close it since it didnt make the money. but now all main superdrugs have a new black range called sleek specifically for blacks.

    im still confused why nowhere sells nude tights for non white skin.

    you know, if any of you white people are looking to make serious money, feel free to cash into these ideas it is a major niche. if you market them right to the correct demographics you would be totally minted. think of brixton or bradford. all those people like me are wondering round high streets looking for brownfaced cards, dolls or tights. you would make millions.
    You can get nude tights for non-whites, unfortunately they are usually expensive. I only buy them when I have special occasions, If only they were available to the mass market.

    I didn't realise Rimmel has once attempted a range for non-white skin which failed, they probably didn't market it well. I've only ever seem white people front Rimmel campaigns compared to America's Cover Girl.
    I think Maybellline has successfully managed to have a range for people of colour but I just stick to Mac and YSL because these ranges seem to cater for all.
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    (Original post by shinytoy)
    re-read my post you have quoted?!
    Okay then, let's do this.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    well? are you white? theres no way a first gen ethnic would think that way.

    YOU sir are the stupid racist. not to mention totally blinded by white privlige that you cant even see what race is. i am asking for equal rights and proportionate racial represetation. i dont understand any reason why you would be opposed to this other than racism
    Do you think that perhaps, there is a chance that neither of us are racist, and merely have different views? If you knew how to read, you would see that I too, am pro-equality.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    the issue is this. the UK is a white majority. but by making white the norm, ie all fictional characters assumed white by default because, most people are white, reinforces the idea of ethnics as 'other' and marginalises them.
    No it doesn't, it accurately reflects the ethnic diversity in this country. With more white people, statistically there will be more white people in media and public view. Nobody is being marginalised, others are represented too.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    a child growing up should not feel marginalised by their race. santa is not real, therefore he could be any colour even if the actual origin was white. if a brown kid wants an image of a brown bearded dude climbing down the chimney with gifts why cant they have that?
    Children don't feel marginalised. It just doesn't happen. Children don't care, so don't play that card. Children are accepting of all cultures, races, and ethnic backgrounds, so having a white santa makes no difference to them.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    the attitude of people like you is like 'the uk us a white country, we have given ethnics the race relations act shut up and be grateful' will never acheive racial equality.
    Don't put words in my mouth, that is not my attitude as you are well aware. racial equality doesn't mean taking things away from white people because you feel like your race was treated badly in the past. That is a tit-for-tat attitude that I certianly don't agree with.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    for racial equality to exist, you cannot have one race being mariginalised and sidelined, effectively segregated because although there will not be overt racism, there will be racial prejudice.
    Which race is being sidelined when you don't want a white santa? sounds racist against whites to me.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    and that is clear from many of the responses on this thread, and the many white people who think the colour of someones skin gives them the right to ask them personali questions about their religion, ancestry, whether they wash their hair, whether it is their own hair, or even going up and touching a black persona hair without asking.
    I have been asked about religion, ancestry, and as I have quite long hair, people do touch it without asking sometimes. I just don't care because im not a jumped up little moron who thinks they are all doing it to be racist. Very few people are actually racist, get over yourself.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    and even though i am asking for black people to have some, even 1% representation in the mainstream christmas media, everyone on this thread is telling me to shut up and calling me ethnocentric and choose only from the 1000s of white people cards there are out there. this is not just about cards but indicative of deeper racial imbalance and ethnic marginalisation in society
    As long as people like you make a point of shouting about it, it will never go away. As I said before, virtually no-one is actually racist, people like you just get offended whenever someone doesnt make a point of saying how great ethnic minorities are. Everyone in this thread is telling you to shut up because you are a moron.

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    you probably dont have the intelligence to understand what im saying so go back to reading the pages of the sun for information about lax immigration laws and why to vote BNP.
    As I said, you are stupid.
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    no because i think they are only there to satisfy people who think everything should be non-white to promote 'equality' and 'diversity', people i loathe very much. i think if there's not a problem (and there clearly isn't) then don't change it. it's more of a tradition that they are portrayed as white than the fact they are actually white.
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    We do a whole range of cards with black/asian people on them.

    For example:
    http://www.clintoncards.co.uk/product/CAA7723/ - Asian couple wedding card

    We do normally do more, but they aren't showing on the website...
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    The Grinch is green yet I don't see people complaining that he doesn't represent minorities
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    Jesus was Jewish, he would have looked middle eastern not white, especially not scandinavian :rofl:
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    (Original post by shinytoy)
    see my quote from the Bible. he was not white, he was brown with african hair(Revelations) with original familial roots in ethiopia (Genesis)


    so if they are not real people and 'race doesnt matter' then why cant at least SOME or even a COUPLE or FEW images on mainstream cards depict him as ANY non white race?


    i found the study you quoted, which was from 2001. actually, the immigration has massively increased sincve then and although ethnic minorities are a minority, they are still sizable in number actually heading toward 20%. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ju...nic-minorities

    considering that most white people like to say how they are eg 1/16th indian, had a persian cousin, have anceastry in brazil etc, even more white people should theoretically have non white members of their family, so non whites+ whites with at least one non white relative in their family or extended family should equal at least 30-40%. are ALL of YOU family 100% white with roots in Northern Europe? thought not.



    no i meant the massively inappropriate questions were racial prejudice. if i was white and in church at xmas would peopel ask if i celebrate christmas? if i say im a christian at work, is it really appropraite for people to say 'no, you can tell us, what religion are you really?'

    where are the brown chistians?
    "His head and hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire;
    1:15 - And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. "

    Your own quote. Please read it more carefully.
    Bear in mind that even if you wan to read it like you did, Jewish and arab people frquently have curly hair, to the point where words like 'Jewfro' are used.


    Why don't cards depict Christ or Santa as other races?
    FFS please read my previous post.
    a) as already stated (convincingly imo) they were not black/chinese/insert
    b) Christmas is a commercial beast built around the idea of family. 92% or thereabouts of Britain is white, so associate family with white people. TO sell cards, makers appeal to these ideas of family - hence white Santa.

    The 'study' I quoted was the official UK census - more accurate than any other demographic study if only because of the huge amounts of money that went into it. It was not a 'study', it was fact.
    I will concede that net migration has increased but you would be an idiot to believe there has been a huge change in the 9 years since the census.
    In fact I just looked at the link you provided: A university study says that it may reach 20% in 2051

    Considering the debate you are trying to provoke is set in the here and now, quoting a projection of 40 years time is foolish, especially since it still leaves 4/5 Britons as white - 80% is certainly a better market to aim for than 20% for Christmas promoters.


    I wasn't aware that most white people did try to claim some sort of mixed ancestry. Making up a bull**** figure of 30%-40% of whites who have non white family is beyond idiotic. If you can't find evidence to back up an argument, don't bother fabricating it.


    (Original post by shinytoy)
    no i meant the massively inappropriate questions were racial prejudice. if i was white and in church at xmas would peopel ask if i celebrate christmas? if i say im a christian at work, is it really appropr$iate for people to say 'no, you can tell us, what religion are you really?' ?
    That is very different and it is disingenuous of you to draw similarities. I myself sometimes go to chapel, especially near Christmas, with my family. I am not Christian, and don't mind teling people so if they ask. The people who asked you if you were Christian made a (racially motivated) assumption, based on actual facts, that is that most non-whites in Britain are not Christian. It may be little rude to work off that assumption and enquire as to you faith, but to be honest there is a difference if you were asked this by say, a bunch of threatening gun-totin' hillbillies in Alabama, and by the local communion in Church.

    My own view from what you say is that you are being hyper-sensitive. It probably wasn't meant to offend.


    I havn't read the rest of the thread but if you are not a troll, you are pretty ill-informed, presumptive and lazy in your research.


    You also make incredible assumptions without realising it, which is exactly what those people in church did, thouh you are foolishly accusing them of racial prejudice :

    (Original post by shinytoy)
    are ALL of YOU family 100% white with roots in Northern Europe? thought not.?
    Well considering I am mixed race with brown skin, probably not.
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    I really don't see why there should be an issue with ethically diverse christmas cards. Also with regards to a white jesus on the front, that blatently makes no sense seeing as jesus would most definetly be middle eastern.
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    Santa doesn't exist, therefore his skin colour is irrelevant.
    These things are just generalised from a time when i guess whites were superior(obviously not the case anymore thankfully). They're still portrayed as being white, as it is a racial pattern that is yet to integrate itself. I feel this is the case for many racial aspects.
    The South African rugby team is another example of a racial pattern.
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    (Original post by 8086)
    Okay then, let's do this.



    Do you think that perhaps, there is a chance that neither of us are racist, and merely have different views? If you knew how to read, you would see that I too, am pro-equality.



    No it doesn't, it accurately reflects the ethnic diversity in this country. With more white people, statistically there will be more white people in media and public view. Nobody is being marginalised, others are represented too.



    Children don't feel marginalised. It just doesn't happen. Children don't care, so don't play that card. Children are accepting of all cultures, races, and ethnic backgrounds, so having a white santa makes no difference to them.



    Don't put words in my mouth, that is not my attitude as you are well aware. racial equality doesn't mean taking things away from white people because you feel like your race was treated badly in the past. That is a tit-for-tat attitude that I certianly don't agree with.



    Which race is being sidelined when you don't want a white santa? sounds racist against whites to me.



    I have been asked about religion, ancestry, and as I have quite long hair, people do touch it without asking sometimes. I just don't care because im not a jumped up little moron who thinks they are all doing it to be racist. Very few people are actually racist, get over yourself.



    As long as people like you make a point of shouting about it, it will never go away. As I said before, virtually no-one is actually racist, people like you just get offended whenever someone doesnt make a point of saying how great ethnic minorities are. Everyone in this thread is telling you to shut up because you are a moron.



    As I said, you are stupid.
    wow what an epic multi-quote
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    If Santa was real (or Jesus) he wouldn't want us arguing over this non-issue. OP needs to chill and do something constructive of his time. Changing Santa to a black guy is like changing jack o lanterns to magenta. It's not about race, it's about tradition. Santa and Jesus are traditional figures. If you change traditional figures, they're not traditional anymore and have no value. How about I change the egyptian god Anubis and give him white skin? I mean, I'm feeling real offended right now.
 
 
 
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