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    mild depression isn't some virus. you can't be prescribed medicine for it. taking medicine would have a placebo effect, the result of which would be a) you would become convinced that you had a baseless illness b) you would become dependent on placebo medicine
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    hi hunni, i have suffered with depression myself and i know what ur feeling is lonliness and hurt but as of yet u are not depressed...get urself out the rut before u are tho as its so hard once your there-much harder than u feel now, but ur sadness is brought on by many things changing at the same time and lik u said feeling alone while its all happening-depression is chemical imbalences and so so so serious! u dont want to be diagnosed with it even by mistake as it effects so much-if uni gets wind of it u could be put off the course, im tryin to get passed my medical at the min for child nursing n deprssion bein on my records is biting me in the ass as its classed as a mental illness even though im sane (well i think so anyways) lol just help urself now and cling on to anyone! get out the rut before the rut locks u in! PM me if u ever need a talk xx
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    (Original post by kratos90)
    Source? I said cannabis was portrayed as relatively soft i.e. soft compared to drugs such as ecstasy which is untrue.
    Well of course it is hard in comparison to ecstasy and LSD etc. Ecstasy is about as harmful as a toothpick.
    Note that I said in 'otherwise healthy individuals'. So I mean the average person, not a person predisposed to develop schizophrenia etc.
    If you really want me to, I can look for papers etc. Otherwise, there's this website http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/cannabis/dangers.htm "A common side-effect, usually for first time or early users, is anxiety, panic, paranoia and feelings of impending doom. However, these effects disappear within hours. Reassurance and a supportive environment also help."
    There is no evidence that schizophrenia is caused in healthy individuals - one of the largest symptoms of this is paranoia.
    If you want me to do some more research for sources, tell me. Although, if you think differently, I'd like some sources too.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    I take it that blowing my argument out of proportion is the only way you can criticise it? Well done.
    It was a simplification, I admit. It was short-hand for examples below, and that was what I was criticising, not my short-hand statement. The simplified statement was just so that I could refer to your argument to the OP and us both know who I was talking about, and what argument I was talking about (and therefore what posts are relevant to the conversation if the OP wished to look back). It was not meant to be a summary of what you believed.
    Notice that you are saying, in a long way, that other people should not talk about diagnosis'. I, very obviously, was not suggesting that you thought that depressed people should not talk about their depression with other people. I was suggesting that you thought that other people should not give their opinions on whether a person is depressed and needs help.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    It's rather different for psychiatric conditions. You can't drive yourself into having cancer through self-diagnosis whereas you can for things like mental illness.

    The simple fact is, it is incredibly inappropriate and irresponsible for a schoolkid to diagnose someone, especially when it is based on a vague few paragraphs on an internet forum.

    Are you aware of any of the cognitive trends that lead to depression? If you take someone who is already potentially vulnerable to such a diagnosis and tell them that they are depressed, they begin to globalise things, their attributions become more internal. Subsequently they are at risk of adopting depressive attitudes because of their new attributional style and they become acopic. This potentially can lead to rumination and ultimately the vicious circle of depression.

    Not only that, its very easy to encourage the googling of DSM symptoms of depression, and inevitably they end up going to their GP and rattling off this specific list of diagnostic criteria, suspiciously in very psychological language. I've seen it happen with patients in GP practices. It only takes a slightly anxious person to be told they have depression to proceed to develop it whether that diagnosis was correct or not.

    But, I very much doubt the little a-level psychiatrists were aware of that when they e-diagnosed.
    Firstly;
    If someone is quite so vulnerable to a diagnosis from a stranger, then that vulnerability itself needs to be dealt with. Depression issues could be causing that vulnerability. Or the person is edging on hypochondria. Normal, healthy-minded people don't leap on a random stranger's suggestion and make themselves ill. If someone does that, then they are in need of professional help.

    Secondly;
    If we agree that some people may be harmed by a false diagnosis, either self-diagnosed or from a stranger, we must look at those who are helped.
    There are many depressed people who refuse to believe they have a problem serious enough to need help. They will insist they are not ill, but may still describe their problems to other people. If you can pick them up on that and say "go to a doctor, I think you're depressed", then those people can get help before their condition worsens. There are many depressed people who drive themselves to a sense of paranoia; getting the opinion of strangers may not be the best option, but it is often more helpful than their own temporarily irrational mind. Of course, there are some non-depressed people who can be told that they are not depressed. That, in my opinion, is the case of the OP. I may be wrong. Of course I may be wrong. But those people can get a better understanding of what to watch out for if their condition deteriorates.

    All in all, I think it is more often than not helpful for a person to be able to get the opinion of others as to what their condition is like, and to know what symptoms to watch out for.
    I do not believe that cutting vulnerable people off from knowledge is the answer. Doctors have a limited time to see you, and cannot get the full picture of your condition. Not only that, there are many who are not good at their jobs and will mess you about. If a doctor tells you that you are not depressed when you are struggling, you need to be able to speak in their language. If a doctor tells you that you are depressed when you are not, you are going to need to know why you are not.
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    If someone is quite so vulnerable to a diagnosis from a stranger, then that vulnerability itself needs to be dealt with
    Sure, by a professional. Not a schoolchild.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Depression issues could be causing that vulnerability. Or the person is edging on hypochondria. Normal, healthy-minded people don't leap on a random stranger's suggestion and make themselves ill. If someone does that, then they are in need of professional help.
    Not neccesarily. There are personalities that are simply very susceptible to suggestion and self-diagnosis. This does not mean that they are already in need of psychiatric help. A nervous disposition about ones own health is not neccesarily a pathology. It certainly need not be exacerbated by ridiculous diagnosies given by people with no knowledge of the concequences of doing so.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Secondly;
    If we agree that some people may be harmed by a false diagnosis, either self-diagnosed or from a stranger, we must look at those who are helped.
    There are many depressed people who refuse to believe they have a problem serious enough to need help.
    And what training do you have to decide who refuses to believe they have a problem? Ultimately, by giving a diagnosis you are gambling with somebody elses health. You have no right to do this.


    (Original post by lightburns)
    They will insist they are not ill, but may still describe their problems to other people. If you can pick them up on that and say "go to a doctor, I think you're depressed", then those people can get help before their condition worsens.
    They should be pointed towards health professionals but they should NOT be given an amateur diagnosis as you have suggested here. It leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy and dangerous googling of psychiatric symptoms which ultimately complicates the diagnostic process.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    There are many depressed people who drive themselves to a sense of paranoia; getting the opinion of strangers may not be the best option, but it is often more helpful than their own temporarily irrational mind.
    Erm. No. It's not more helpful for the reasons I have been mentioning throughout this thread.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Of course, there are some non-depressed people who can be told that they are not depressed. That, in my opinion, is the case of the OP. I may be wrong. Of course I may be wrong. But those people can get a better understanding of what to watch out for if their condition deteriorates.
    Get a better understanding? By using information delivered to them by schoolchildren with no formal education or training? Right..

    (Original post by lightburns)
    All in all, I think it is more often than not helpful for a person to be able to get the opinion of others as to what their condition is like, and to know what symptoms to watch out for.
    Great. Well unfortunately, you're not a professional. Ergo you should keep your 'medical opinions' to yourself.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    I do not believe that cutting vulnerable people off from knowledge is the answer. Doctors have a limited time to see you, and cannot get the full picture of your condition.
    I'm not cutting anyone off from information. What I am doing is cutting people off from mis-informed and ill educated information.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Not only that, there are many who are not good at their jobs
    Patients are fully in their rights to seek additional medical opinions. A schoolchild on an internet forum is not a substitute for this.
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Sure, by a professional. Not a schoolchild.
    I was suggesting that they get convinced that they are depressed, and see a professional, and get professional help. If someone is so vulnerable to need help because a schoolchild suggests they need help, then they will need the help they go and ask the doctor for.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Not neccesarily. There are personalities that are simply very susceptible to suggestion and self-diagnosis. This does not mean that they are already in need of psychiatric help. A nervous disposition about ones own health is not neccesarily a pathology. It certainly need not be exacerbated by ridiculous diagnosies given by people with no knowledge of the concequences of doing so.
    They certainly need to get a grip on reality if they take an unprofessional stranger's word as gospel.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    And what training do you have to decide who refuses to believe they have a problem? Ultimately, by giving a diagnosis you are gambling with somebody elses health. You have no right to do this.
    And by not giving my opinion, you could say that I am ignoring their health. Neither is a comfortable position to be in.
    The decision is made, ultimately, by a professional. Not by me, or anyone else. Anything said on forums such as this is speculation and speculation only, and must be treated as such. The problem is not with the opinions themselves, but with what weight people lend to those opinions.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    They should be pointed towards health professionals but they should NOT be given an amateur diagnosis as you have suggested here. It leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy and dangerous googling of psychiatric symptoms which ultimately complicates the diagnostic process.
    Simply the act of pointing them towards a professional is giving a speculatory diagnosis. You are telling them "I believe you are in bad mental health due to depression, and need to talk to a doctor". In deciding who you believe needs to be pointed to a doctor and who doesn't (eg. "my tv is broken, it makes me sad" is not depression, and does not require a doctor's visit. Between this and "I'm going to commit suicide" there are grey zones).

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Erm. No. It's not more helpful for the reasons I have been mentioning throughout this thread.
    It is for the reasons I have mentioned throughout this thread....

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Get a better understanding? By using information delivered to them by schoolchildren with no formal education or training? Right..
    Yes. There are a lot of depressed people. People gain some knowledge of signs and symptoms. For example, if the OP starts thinking "I want to kill myself", that is a sign that their condition is deteriorating, and they need to speak to a professional. Is it wrong of me to suggest that if they get suicidal, they need to go to a doctors?

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Great. Well unfortunately, you're not a professional. Ergo you should keep your 'medical opinions' to yourself.
    Oops. I just made a 'medical opinion'. Everyone, make your own mind up about when it's necessary to talk to a doctor! Nobody suggest symptoms that are worrying such as my suicidal 'medical opinion'.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    I'm not cutting anyone off from information. What I am doing is cutting people off from mis-informed and ill educated information.
    Which cuts them off from any knowledge at all.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Patients are fully in their rights to seek additional medical opinions. A schoolchild on an internet forum is not a substitute for this.
    People can tell them what their medical professional has said, for example. By passing on different information from different medical professionals, people can gain an idea of whether their professional is not doing their job. If you only talk to your medical professional, you have no idea if you should get a second opinion.
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    I was suggesting that they get convinced that they are depressed, and see a professional, and get professional help. If someone is so vulnerable to need help because a schoolchild suggests they need help, then they will need the help they go and ask the doctor for.
    Sorry, but who are you to convince someone that they are depressed. What the **** do you know? Are you a psychiatrist? Have you evaluated this person yourself?

    (Original post by lightburns)
    And by not giving my opinion, you could say that I am ignoring their health. Neither is a comfortable position to be in.
    The decision is made, ultimately, by a professional. Not by me, or anyone else. Anything said on forums such as this is speculation and speculation only, and must be treated as such. The problem is not with the opinions themselves, but with what weight people lend to those opinions.
    Telling someone that they should seek the help of a GP is not ignoring someones health. By adding that 'they have depression' is uninformed, uneducated twaddle that is irresponsible and potentially damaging.

    In addition, you defend yourself by claiming it is merely speculation. Why give it then? Secondly you have no idea whether that person is going to take it as speculation. You are gambling with somebody's health with your speculations.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Simply the act of pointing them towards a professional is giving a speculatory diagnosis. You are telling them "I believe you are in bad mental health due to depression, and need to talk to a doctor"
    Erm, no. It's not. I may recommend someone to see a GP for x symptom only for the GP to inform them that it is completely benign. In no way is that the equivilent to giving an amateur diagnosis.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Yes. There are a lot of depressed people. People gain some knowledge of signs and symptoms. For example, if the OP starts thinking "I want to kill myself", that is a sign that their condition is deteriorating, and they need to speak to a professional. Is it wrong of me to suggest that if they get suicidal, they need to go to a doctors?
    No. As I have told you many times, it is wrong to give them a diagnosis before setting them on their way.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Oops. I just made a 'medical opinion'. Everyone, make your own mind up about when it's necessary to talk to a doctor! Nobody suggest symptoms that are worrying such as my suicidal 'medical opinion'.
    Here's you blowing my argument out of proportion in order to criticise it again. Unfortunately for your argument I said nothing of the sort.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Which cuts them off from any knowledge at all.
    Wrong again. There is informed information, e.g. from a medical professional and there is bilge provided by schoolchildren.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    People can tell them what their medical professional has said, for example. By passing on different information from different medical professionals, people can gain an idea of whether their professional is not doing their job. If you only talk to your medical professional, you have no idea if you should get a second opinion.
    That clinical information is going to be relevant to that patient, and that patient only. It is not helpful to give out selective and most likely misinterpreted and badly applied second-hand medical information based on completely different evaluations.

    In addition, it is up to that patient to decide whether they want a second opinion depending on how satisfied they feel with their treatment options. It should be based on nothing else.

    tl;dr - You're not a healthcare professional. Stop diagnosing people.
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    (Original post by nicoleh777)
    hi hunni, i have suffered with depression myself and i know what ur feeling is lonliness and hurt but as of yet u are not depressed...get urself out the rut before u are tho as its so hard once your there-much harder than u feel now, but ur sadness is brought on by many things changing at the same time and lik u said feeling alone while its all happening-depression is chemical imbalences and so so so serious! u dont want to be diagnosed with it even by mistake as it effects so much-if uni gets wind of it u could be put off the course, im tryin to get passed my medical at the min for child nursing n deprssion bein on my records is biting me in the ass as its classed as a mental illness even though im sane (well i think so anyways) lol just help urself now and cling on to anyone! get out the rut before the rut locks u in! PM me if u ever need a talk xx
    I know I'm trying to get out of this rut! Unfortunately this evening though my so called halls friends cooked a christmas dinner without me, hasn't affected me as much as it normally would do but still :/ It's just the icing on the top of the cake atm.
    That's really bad that it's difficult for you to get on a course, surely that would make depression worse if you aren't allowed to live your life! I hope it all works out and thanks!
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    I said nothing of the sort. What I did say is that schoolkids should not be diagnosing psychiatric illness based on what they have studied at a-level.
    He wasn't diagnosing me, and anyway I've done that same module in A Level Psychology!
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    I know this is a cliche question but have you joined any societies?


    Also, if I'm honest, I suffer from depression, and you basically see yourself as worthless and detached from everyone. You hate yourself, think you'd be better off dead and think about suicide a lot.
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    (Original post by Jakelee)
    I know this is a cliche question but have you joined any societies?


    Also, if I'm honest, I suffer from depression, and you basically see yourself as worthless and detached from everyone. You hate yourself, think you'd be better off dead and think about suicide a lot.
    No I haven't :/ The couple that I would have joined didn't turn up for the freshers fayre. I signed up for volunteering but the thing that I initially volunteered for was held on Thursday evenings when I would have had a long day at uni and we have deadlines every Friday anyway.

    Sometimes I feel and bit worthless and detached, but not so much. Right now though I'm at a pretty low point. My so called halls friends have just had a christmas dinner without me (even though my flatmate wanted to borrow some garlic and just said that she was cooking) and today is my mum's birthday and my boyfriend's grandad's funeral so he doesn't want to talk (which is fair enough). I'm feeling so alone I'm sorry to hear that you feel like that, I feel bad now so can't imagine how horrible it must be to feel like that I hope you get well soon
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Sorry, but who are you to convince someone that they are depressed. What the **** do you know? Are you a psychiatrist? Have you evaluated this person yourself?
    I am not a professional. There is a load of writing at the top that says "all advice is unprofessional and what someone says does not replace a trip to the GP". I stand by that. One aspect of the OP's question was whether they were depressed. If the OP specifically asked for that kind of advice, who are who to deny them of it?

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Telling someone that they should seek the help of a GP is not ignoring someones health. By adding that 'they have depression' is uninformed, uneducated twaddle that is irresponsible and potentially damaging.
    Telling someone that they should seek the help of a GP as opposed to not seeking the help of a GP is an opinion. If you think they have precisely zero signs of depression, they do not need to see a GP for their depression. They only need to see a GP if they have a problem they need to discuss. Telling someone that they should seek the help of a GP is not ignoring someone's health, I agree, but it is giving a medical opinion that you so dearly detest.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    In addition, you defend yourself by claiming it is merely speculation. Why give it then? Secondly you have no idea whether that person is going to take it as speculation. You are gambling with somebody's health with your speculations.
    Because sometimes people want to know other people's experiences and advice. You are gambling with somebody's health if you choose to not give advice due to fear of making it worse.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Erm, no. It's not. I may recommend someone to see a GP for x symptom only for the GP to inform them that it is completely benign. In no way is that the equivilent to giving an amateur diagnosis.
    How do you decide what symptom is needed for a GP visit? How do you decide how severe a symptom needs to be before a person should visit a doctor? I assume that people will say "you have that symptom.. go and see a doctor!" because they have read it out of a school textbook, or even worse, just believe it to be true off intuition.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    No. As I have told you many times, it is wrong to give them a diagnosis before setting them on their way.
    And as I have told you many times, you form an opinion about their symptom in order to set them on their way in the direction of your choosing.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Here's you blowing my argument out of proportion in order to criticise it again. Unfortunately for your argument I said nothing of the sort.
    This should have been quite obviously an exaggerated jest. It was immature of me to do it, but highly exaggerated circumstances, immature wording, and frequent use of exclamation marks was intended to convey that I was poking fun of you, and my words should not be taken at face value.

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Wrong again. There is informed information, e.g. from a medical professional and there is bilge provided by schoolchildren.
    What about before they see a medical professional? Are you effectively cutting them off from knowledge whilst they are not seeing a medical professional?

    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    That clinical information is going to be relevant to that patient, and that patient only. It is not helpful to give out selective and most likely misinterpreted and badly applied second-hand medical information based on completely different evaluations.

    In addition, it is up to that patient to decide whether they want a second opinion depending on how satisfied they feel with their treatment options. It should be based on nothing else.

    tl;dr - You're not a healthcare professional. Stop diagnosing people.
    It certainly should be based on other people's experiences. I go to a specialist health unit for something unrelated, but it causes severe depression as a fun side effect until treated. Now, most of the people going to these units discuss in depth the different psychs that they are seeing with eachother. The unit used to be plagued with extreme sexism, and I mean, really extreme. If a woman did not wear a skirt or dress, and chose to wear trousers, they were refused treatment. On the NHS. This is recent stuff we are talking about here. The only way this was largely prevented was by people talking to eachother and there being shock at how people were treated. People could then find out the few psychs that were okay, and be transferred to them. Even more importantly, women knew to wear skirts when seeing these psychs.
    Psychs used their sexism to misdiagnose people. These people only knew the problem was with their psychs, not with them, because they talked to their skirt-wearing peers.
    Until you know that there are some that are okay, you often won't ask to be transferred, because many will assume that the whole system is like that. They can often be transferred to another bad one, because they don't know who is good.
    A bad psych can mistreat you in your diagnosis. After 4 years, I still haven't been officially diagnosed I don't believe, or if I have, nobody has told me. A bad psych can refuse you treatment or referrals - again, this has happened to me, and I only found this out through discussion.
    Now I get the information about a psych before I go to see them - people tell me what to avoid, and what potential issues I could get with the psych.

    I believe in people sharing about their individual processes and experiences to guide others on what they should demand, more strongly than I believe in just standard unprofessional diagnosis advice.

    Mental health is subjective, even with the professionals. This allows so many misconduct with psychs to creep through and dig their claws in. You only know this by knowing the system, and you only know this by someone else telling you "wait, you likely do/do not have X condition, that psych did misconduct Y! Get a second opinion!"
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    I am not a professional.
    Then don't diagnose people. Simple as.

    Cba to go through this circular exercise with you anymore.
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Then don't diagnose people. Simple as.

    Cba to go through this circular exercise with you anymore.
    People who have a mental illness, who know they have it, and have been properly diagnosed will be able to tell if someone else has the ilness because they themselves have experienced it. Healthcare professionals, who usually won't have an properly in depth knowledge of every single illness around haven't, they don't know exactly what it's really like.
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    (Original post by pippa90)
    People who have a mental illness, who know they have it, and have been properly diagnosed will be able to tell if someone else has the ilness because they themselves have experienced it. Healthcare professionals, who usually won't have an properly in depth knowledge of every single illness around haven't, they don't know exactly what it's really like.
    So you're saying that if I suffer from a headache, someone who has migraines will be able to diagnose whether or not I actually have a subarachnoid bleed?
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    So you're saying that if I suffer from a headache, someone who has migraines will be able to diagnose whether or not I actually have a subarachnoid bleed?
    A headache isn't a mental illness...
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    (Original post by pippa90)
    A headache isn't a mental illness...
    The point remains the same whether or not the example given is physical or mental.
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    Then don't diagnose people. Simple as.

    Cba to go through this circular exercise with you anymore.
    Way to ignore everything I just said, but carry on the argument with Pippa.
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    Way to ignore everything I just said, but carry on the argument with Pippa.
    I ignored everything you said because I have addressed all of those points before. It was going around in circles.
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    So you're saying that if I suffer from a headache, someone who has migraines will be able to diagnose whether or not I actually have a subarachnoid bleed?
    If someone says that they are in pain, depending on the amount or location of pain, I may suggest they go to a doctor, with a speculation that it could be X.

    For example, appendicitis is located in a particular region for most people. If a person tells me they are experiencing bad pain there, I can say "that is quite possibly appendicitis, therefore you must see a doctor immediately, because if it bursts you can quite easily die". My amateur diagnosis is just to let them know that it could be X, and due to that possibility, they need to see a doctor in Y time frame.

    Similarly, if they are worried they have meningitis, I could instruct them to press a glass against their rash. If they report back that the rash fades, I can give them an amateur diagnosis of "that isn't meningitis.."

    Now, I am messing with these people's health. If either of us makes a mistake (for example, if they perform the glass test, but somehow think it's faded when it hasn't), they could be severely harmed by not going to the doctor's in time due to my advice.
    However, the amateur knowledge out there greatly aids people because it, in the majority of times, lets people know to go to the doctors because X is an emergency, when they wouldn't have gone before (Just a rash? Nahh it'll be fine..).
    Someone who has suffered from X is more likely to know from your symptoms whether you could also have X.

    In physical conditions, amateur diagnoses save lives. That is why we are told basic knowledge of these conditions even in primary school.
    For the reasons I said before, amateur diagnoses for mental conditions also help more often than hinder.
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    (Original post by GodspeedGehenna)
    The point remains the same whether or not the example given is physical or mental.
    Where did you get that point from? No it doesn't.

    Someone with depression, who has read all of the textbook info and spoken to other people with depression, as well as experiencing it themselves will have more knowledge of the subject than a 'healthcare professional'. The 'professional' doesn't know what it's truely like to be depressed.
 
 
 
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