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Water Cannon at Student Demos? Conservatives Say NO... Watch

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    (Original post by jb9191)
    paint is a proven method in other parts of the world - they could easily arrest those marked later on whilst slowly filtering people out of the contained area.
    Do you understand the word "ignore"? Idiot.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Says you. Every account I have read and from watching coverage of the protest says different. Accounts from about 4 or 5 different newspapers from the guardian to the Times contradicts what your saying.
    Sources please?

    As far as I can gather, the march was not violent.

    There was no police line preventing the march into P Square. There were police lines all round the area to trap people once in P Square and heavy police presence to the east of P Square to protect the Houses of Parliament.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Says you. Every account I have read and from watching coverage of the protest says different. Accounts from about 4 or 5 different newspapers from the guardian to the Times contradicts what your saying.
    Please watch the program on ITV last night by John Pilger called "The War you don't see". It is a very powerful program about how the media just reports what governments say.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    :facepalm2: SO I should believe you over every media outlet that reported the event and the police and the government.
    Believe what you will. Just don't let that wool hat slip too far down your face.

    Dinner, tara.
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    (Original post by No Future)
    Sources please?

    As far as I can gather, the march was not violent.

    There was no police line preventing the march into P Square. There were police lines all round the area to trap people once in P Square and heavy police presence to the east of P Square to protect the Houses of Parliament.
    http://cms.met.police.uk/news/policy...tral_london__1

    Thats the met source. I also posted a link from the guardian that had an account of the event
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    (Original post by No Future)
    No, that is not what I have said.

    1) As far as I saw, the police did not enter/infiltrate the kettle area far beyond the police lines.
    2) Except for when the police ran at the people at the front of the kettle and beat them with batons, regardless of whether or not those people presented a threat to the police
    3) And when mounted police charged at the crowd several times, trampling people and trying to push people back, but due to space constraints the crowd could not move
    4) At the back of the protest, when it was dark, cold and people were trying to leave, police were not allowing them to do so. 2-3 lines of people were sitting cross legged across the street on Whitehall as they had nowhere to go. I saw the police move towards them and beat people who were sitting down.

    This is not a full account, but I hope those examples help.

    Has that answered your question?
    Please do feel free to ask any further questions for clarification.
    3- Ive seen footage of the charge and im yet to notice anyone who failed to get out the way. All I can then see is people throwing stuff at the horses and police.
    4- people where getting let out,admittedly very slowly, but they had to be checked before doing so. Did you expect the police to let all the troublemakers just walk out and start a riot elsewhere?

    I've yet to see evidence of such random violence by the police apart from the wheelchair incident where you can see other police officers trying to stop the mad one. It seems to me that people need to realise that taking part in what was obviously going to turn into a riot is not the safest place to be and if you are wanting to be a peaceful protester RESEARCH what the official plan is and follow it.
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    (Original post by Pads)
    d I also know that you can get out the back! Its like a concert where everyone wants to get to the front. If you dont want to be at the front you push to the back which isnt easy but dont pretend you cant do it cos you can.
    At one point I was caught in the crowd in the middle and can assure you that it was not easy to get out. A protest is somewhat different to a concert
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    (Original post by JMG89)
    Please watch the program on ITV last night by John Pilger called "The War you don't see". It is a very powerful program about how the media just reports what governments say.
    Heard bout it and will probably watch it after work. However I find it hard to believe that a newspaper like the Guardian would ever report what a Tory government told it to.
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    (Original post by channy)
    Personally, I tried to see if I could get out, as I had a date that afternoon. Quite naive by me, actually, to not consider the factor of being kettled.
    very naive seeing as previous protests had been kettled.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    http://cms.met.police.uk/news/policy...tral_london__1

    Thats the met source. I also posted a link from the guardian that had an account of the event
    Thank you for the link. I could not find specific statements regarding violence on the march or prior to entering P. Square
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    (Original post by No Future)
    At one point I was caught in the crowd in the middle and can assure you that it was not easy to get out. A protest is somewhat different to a concert
    Ofcourse it is but crowds act the same. Dont be ridiculous and think that you cant get out of a group of people at a protest when with thousands of people pushing against you at a concert you can.
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    (Original post by Pads)
    very naive seeing as previous protests had been kettled.
    As far as I am aware:

    1) Millbank was not kettled
    2) A protester after Millbank was not kettled
    3) Why should you expect to be detained (in very cold conditions without access to food, water, toilets etc) during a protest if you are not causing trouble?
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Heard bout it and will probably watch it after work. However I find it hard to believe that a newspaper like the Guardian would ever report what a Tory government told it to.
    On there website their live blog of the protest or its aftermath are very interesting. They have published reports from people who were there which report some of the police actions. Are you aware there have been over 100 complaints to the police about their actions???

    also read this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffiel...00/9276699.stm

    its a real shame it isn't on the main site of the BBC website but is on a minor local page.
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    (Original post by No Future)
    Thank you for the link. I could not find specific statements regarding violence on the march or prior to entering P. Square
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...-fees-violence

    Right the protesters were meant to cross the north side of Parliament Square., and go on from there.

    Many hundreds of police, dressed in fluorescent jackets and soft hats, but with riot helmets at their waists, were already standing shoulder to shoulder along the route, when the demonstration arrived in the square at around 1.30pm.
    Within 15 minutes the police line was breached by protesters throwing smoke bombs and eggs, and the crowd spilled across to occupy the whole of Parliament Square, pulling down temporary fencing in order to enter the green.

    Seems that there were small scuffles before that.

    The police kettled the protesters in parliament square, then began letting small grou out slowly. Violence flared up throughout the evening at various spots leading to the police letting people out much more slowly.

    SO although there was very little violence before entering parliament square, the police kettled them in there because the protesters were not actually allowed to enter the whole of parliament square the way they did, hence the kettle so the police could deal with the massive group of people.
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    (Original post by Pads)
    Ofcourse it is but crowds act the same. Dont be ridiculous and think that you cant get out of a group of people at a protest when with thousands of people pushing against you at a concert you can.
    It is rare for police to beat people and charge at them at concerts. It is rare to be detained against your will at concerts. The situation at the 9/12 protest was different to a concert.

    I can only say what I experienced and saw and it was difficult to move and became dangerous when the police tried to push the crowd back and charge at them on horses. People panicked and some were pushed and knocked over. Somebody could have easily been hurt or trampled by people. Some were trampled by horses.

    As you say, it made sense to get out of the crowd, so I pushed through with a great deal of effort and went to watch from the press area at the time. It was much safer and I had a much better view of what was going on.

    Not everybody was able to escape and some who did try to escape were hit or pushed back by police. I was VERY lucky to escape and put this down to being lucky, not being afraid of galloping horses and not being dressed like a student so I was able to stay in the press area and was fairly unquestioned.
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    Kettling is proven ineffective - ask the Police Force in the USA and Germany about such an issue.

    It's not ineffective because it's quite obviously working at these protests. The levels of violence are down on what they could be.

    No it hasn't. Have you even seen what has happened? The rioters clearly won in the tactics battle as the police didn't have a clue. Kettling has also led to many students and officers being hurt. Its a stupid way of dealing with rioters and the German police cottoned on to how **** it is as a tactic ages ago.

    My friend was innocent and I find it funny how you think you can just move away when you are being pushed by a police line in a containment. She asked to go to the toilet and tried to get through and was struck in the face, that is severe police brutality. There is a difference between a yob and a student yet the police assumed every single student there was being violent so acted indiscriminately against them all with forcefulness and violence. I love how someone who wasn't even there is commenting on it when all they've seen is the **** spouted on the news - its like someone trying to tell me about a whole football match when they've only watched the short highlights on Match Of The Day, they don't get the full picture.

    Actually i asked my step-dad who has been policing riots and many worse ones before it for decades. So shut up. I have both friends who have been in protests and family members policing them so the only person who is speaking as if they know the whole picture when really they only know one side of it is you.

    I love how people say I asked my step dad and friends. Wow! Were you there though? No you weren't so whatever you've been told is 1. Biased and 2. A secondary form of evidence. My actual source of evidence is primary as I was there witnessing innocent people getting hit by the police for nothing other than trying to get out of the kettled area and go home, or go to the toilet. Also, you asked a policemen - a bit biased don't you think considering he is obviously going to defend the actions of the police.

    Yes they have kicked in but no where near as bad as they will, just you wait and see. I hope the territorial army treat the police the same way the police have treated students.

    LOL! You can hope if you want but that isn't going to happen. And 'you just wait and see' is such a weak argument because it relies on future knowledge. Get a grip.

    I know because the police protect the government and the government protect the police - they are both as corrupt as each other. Just you wait until police officers are jobless. I will have no sympathy for them.

    I wouldn't phone them anyway. 9/10 they can't do anything anyway and its far more effective to have a dog in the kitchen to defend my property than it is to reply on the so called public service we call the 'police'. 1. The police are far more interested in boosting their quota in speeding tickets and fines so they can get rewards for meeting targets at the end of each month. Do you really think I would trust the police? Anyone who does in this day and age is extremely naive. Its far more effective to defend yourself in this day and age and even if you do so you face prosecution by the police force and legal system for protecting your property, 2. as you have to use what is deemed reasonable force. 3. Well if the police did their jobs properly then criminals wouldn't be wandering the streets trying to break into properties would they? 4. There is hardly a community police presence and the majority of the police you do see are in police cars trying to combat car crime and get rewards. 5. The majority of criminals are drug addicts anyway that the police have let off with the oh so scary 'caution'. The police must be mentally retarded if they think a 'caution' is going to deter them from committing crimes for their next fix. 6. They don't live in the real world - if someone broke into my home I'd do whatever to stop them stealing something, even if that meant killing them. At the end of the day, that criminal is showing me no respect by breaking into my home and trying to steal things I've worked for so why should I respect him?

    1. Quota's were introduced by Labour and are awful measures of policing. For example where I live in the country there is like one murder a year, so if there is 2 next year then murders are up 100%. Targets and quotas are BS and nobody likes them other than useless Labour MP's who have no idea about policing.

    Yes I don't claim allegiance to any party so blaming labour is really not going to bother me. Screw parties or political agendas and team supporting, lets focus on the real issues every normal Brit faces day in, day out. Also, the fact that the Labour government introduced the quota's doesn't give the police the right to abuse the system to reap reward after reward - after all, they are supposed to be our most trustworthy and honest part of society. They clearly only have their own selfish interests at heart when they care more about meeting targets. Also, you claim that you live in an area where there is 1 murder per year. Then obviously you live in a rural village out of any major city so you live in a warped sense of the real world where you think everything is fine and dandy. You need to get into the real world and understand the issues facing many people living in cities in Britain. Constant vandalism, knife crime, muggings, and so on.

    2. What's wrong with 'reasonable force'? It's completely logical. If someone shouts at you then you can't just shoot them. But if they pull a knife and try and run at you then you could shoot them. If you allow people to do whatever they want to intruders then people could start justifying murders with 'oh he was in my house so I shot him in the head'. The term 'reasonable' is used to ensure nobody goes overboard with home protection and the UK doesn't end up like the USA where everyone has a shotgun under the bed and a pistol in the drawer.

    Reasonable force is a joke and leads to many burglars and thieves breaking into homes without any worry as if they break in with no weapon then the person in the house can only use a light weapon or if anything, just physical force to restrain the criminal. There should be strict laws for peoples properties and if someone goes illegally into someone's property without permission then they should face the consequences, whether that means they get killed by getting shot or not then I do not care. The burglar should know the consequences beforehand and if they are willing to gamble their life then so be it. Its stupid things like reasonable force and petty sentences that don't bother criminals in the slightest and they repeat offend. If there was a chance they could break into a house and someone pulled a pistol on them then they'd think again about doing it, it would deter the cause from the start. That's why America has a lower crime rate - yes the overall figures may be higher but when you compare that against population density then the US have far less crimes because people are actually allowed to protect themselves. Women should also be allowed to carry tasers to stop rapists.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...tas-study.html


    3. LOL! So the police are responsible for crime? What the hell man. If the police weren't around then crime would go up. Simple. You can't accuse the police of not doing their job properly just because some crime exists. Crime has existed since before Christ.

    Crime is rife in the UK compared to the rest of Europe and the US and some of those countries lower than us have Mafia ruled states. That is shocking in itself. Look at the gang culture in Liverpool and places like Moss Side in Manchester, nevermind London. Also the massive culture of knife crime and before you start blaming immigrants a lot of the suspects are British and White in Skin colour. The majority of crimes are committed by British people. Again, another reason so much crime is committed is because the police do not deal with drug dealers correctly. They give them cautions for possession of crack, amphetamine and heroin. Its absolutely pathetic and you see it every day on Bravo's police programmes. The police want to put them in **** holes of prisons to make them scared of going back and increase sentences to scare the **** out of them so they don't want to go back to prison. No one in this country is scared of prison to be fair - squeal suicide and you get anything given to you to stay alive - so many playing the system its unbelievable and the stupid politicians, police and judicial system let it happen. Not one Iota of common sense between them. That's why Britain is becoming the **** hole it is.

    4. There is plenty of community policing, namely COMMUNITY support officers and local policing teams of which their are numerous. The Conservatives are going to get more police officers on the street by abolishing quota's and stupid levels of paperwork. Admittedly with the cuts this will take time but expect that to be solved soon.

    Wow, you are really naive if you believe any squalor that comes out of the 3 main parties mouths. Labour leave the country in financial ****, Lib Dems go back on their pre election pledge and the Tories saying harsher cuts need to be made than what they initially said, yet still people believe them. No wonder they carry on to take the piss because their are people out their that let them do it. Screw all 3 parties. Then again, if Cammy boy said it, it must be true :facepalm: I do not follow any party. I'm an independent wanting the best for the country. The police force at the current time is a complete and utter joke which is why so many other countries are laughing at us.

    5. There will always be drug addicts. If someone with a previous caution for possession is cautioned again then it gets more serious. You seem to think that drug addicts can roam freely with drugs and never get arrested or go to court. If they are let of for it then that isn't necessarily the police's fault because it's often up to the magistrate/judge to decide upon a sentence.

    How many asbo's, cautions are they going to give out before someone takes them serious? Some are even taking the piss and collecting them as trophies to establish themselves in gangs - thats how ridiculed they have become. The key is harsher sentences like in the US or Thailand where criminals **** themselves and showing criminals no respect whatsoever. Drug addicts are all over the place - you may live in some lovely rural village - move into the city and you'll see drugs freely moving all over the place - people actually selling them outside clubs without a care in the world for the police. Its not entirely up to the magistrates either as the police have to fill out a report which then has an effect on the sentence. Drug users do not care about getting caught. The risk is worth taking for them when in reality they should make the punishment so bad that the risk is not worth taking. Stick them in prison, let them get raped, and let them never want to go back to the hell hole again.

    6. I don't respect criminals. Neither do the police. Hence why they arrest them. And as said in point 1., if you use reasonable force to defend yourself then you can kill someone. Furthermore the police DO live in the real world. It's stupid people sat behind a screen who want to have a go at the establishment about things they don't understand who have never been the target of thousands of protestors who 'don't live in the real world'. Trust me of all the police officers I've met, they all have a reasonable head on their shoulders. I know that doesn't account for all and there are undoubtedly cases of police abusing their power or doing something dangerous but you can't criticise all of them.

    No the police don't live in the real world. They should be allowed to beat down on criminals and wasters in society to make them not want to re offend. The police have become a soft touch in normal society but the moment a bunch of students kick off they start being violent. They wouldn't be violent like that to fully grown men scrapping over football - I've been there and the police bottled it. They blatantly tried to take on vulnerable teenagers from the ages of 14-21. All the police are interested in doing is getting bonuses, the majority of them do not care about the community they serve

    I also know someone who was stabbed - what happened? Nothing because the police haven't a clue. The force and system are so **** that even with a confession they can't put the perpetrator in prison as there is no evidence.

    99.9% of the time a confession will result in a conviction. If someone confesses wholly you don't need evidence as there cannot legally be a defence. You might be looking at one example when it hasn't gone right compared to all the times it has. Besides that's more likely a failing on the behalf of the judiciary.

    Wow, what planet have you been on? A confession is not an admissible piece of evidence. Forensic evidence is often needed to prosecute someone which is a joke. The reason for this is the politically correct system that thinks that most will easily take the rap for others if a confession was solely admissible.

    the ******* admitted it. What more evidence do you need Sherlock '****' Holmes?

    What are you on about? I'm on about the fact that police couldn't prosecute someone who clearly has admitted he was responsible for the stabbing. If you can't work that out then really you are dumb.

    The police in the UK are nothing more than uneducated power driven thugs who think they are above the law due to having a special badge. That sums them up. The entry requirements are a joke and I did harder Key Stage 3 tests in school.

    LOL!. The two year apprenticeship is worth a foundation degree so it isn't as easy as a Key stage 3 test. And the majority of police officers have A-levels or degrees. Because the police rarely recruit below 19 so people go to uni to fill the time before joining and the police prefer to hire educated people. And no 'uneducated power driven thug' could pass the conditioning and personal assessments. Those kind of people are weeded out.

    Have you seen the maths test on entry? Give me a break. Also the reason the police recruit 19 year olds more often is because you need to be 18 1/2 to apply. :facepalm: the majority of the police do not have degrees either and those that do often did degrees that were no use to them so therefore decided to go into the force because it was a better choice than choosing a career based on their degree qualification. The only educated people in the force are those that are working on the computer side of things that more often than not need to have obtained a degree in forensic computing to get that role. Almost every other role can be obtained solely on working your way up through the ranks, which doesn't need any qualifications whatsoever.

    I'll never ever in my life ask for help from the police - Its easier to do it myself and I'll do a far more reliable job - that's why I have CCTV on my house - 2 Doberman pinchers' ready to own any criminals and other defensive weapons.

    Good for you. I hope anyone who breaks into your house regrets it. Much cheaper on the tax payer as well, because like it or not your taxes fund the police and so if you refuse to use the service that benefits the rest of society so thanks

    I'm not doing it for the rest of society. I'm doing it protect my home and possessions because the police are a liability in this day and age unfortunately so I have to do everything myself.

    I actually find it funny that some people still trust police. Never ever see police walking about, maybe if they did then people would realise there was more of a police presence and it would deter crime yet they are always in cars being fat, lazy and unfit and waiting for the next speeding ticket to issue.

    They should tackle real crime.

    You need to live in the real world mate. REAL policing isn't about running round after murderers and 100MPH police chases. You just complained about the lack of community policing and now say that most police are on the street! Make up your mind! And speeding is real crime. It kills thousands of people a year. You would feel differently if you knew someone hit by a car.
    Your whole argument is one MASSIVE bigoted uninformed fail. The majority of this should be directed at the government.

    I never said 100MPH police chases - again you fail to read. I actually stated more should get out of cars and police the communities on foot, instead of being fat and lazy in cars trying to reach targets.

    There is a difference of police using cars to tackle crime and walking on the beat. You clearly fail to understand that difference.

    Also the majority of the British Public speed and millions more speeders do not cause accidents than do cause accidents. Its just a stereotypical generalisation that all speeders are bad. The majority of speeders don't just cause accidents due to speed but its a combination of reckless driving as well as speed. I know 50 year olds who always speed and never had an accident in their lives. Not all speeders are dangerous and anyone who thinks they are clearly does not have a clue about driving. Its quite easy to speed and drive safely by being aware and using a bit of common sense. Also, if the police actually wrote up decent reports and put drink drivers away in prison then they wouldn't do it. At the moment all they get is a fine and 12 months ban the majority of the time and the majority of them just drive whilst disqualified anyway because quite frankly, they don't care about the consequences and don't give a **** - well the police should make them care by being stricter.
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    (Original post by JMG89)
    On there website their live blog of the protest or its aftermath are very interesting. They have published reports from people who were there which report some of the police actions. Are you aware there have been over 100 complaints to the police about their actions???

    also read this:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffiel...00/9276699.stm

    its a real shame it isn't on the main site of the BBC website but is on a minor local page.

    All all fairness them being girls makes very little difference. Those officers will be being provoked by other protesters for most of the day as well as being attacked. Its no real surprise that some go over the top given the situation.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...-fees-violence

    Right the protesters were meant to cross the north side of Parliament Square., and go on from there.

    Many hundreds of police, dressed in fluorescent jackets and soft hats, but with riot helmets at their waists, were already standing shoulder to shoulder along the route, when the demonstration arrived in the square at around 1.30pm.
    Within 15 minutes the police line was breached by protesters throwing smoke bombs and eggs, and the crowd spilled across to occupy the whole of Parliament Square, pulling down temporary fencing in order to enter the green.

    Seems that there were small scuffles before that.

    The police kettled the protesters in parliament square, then began letting small grou out slowly. Violence flared up throughout the evening at various spots leading to the police letting people out much more slowly.

    SO although there was very little violence before entering parliament square, the police kettled them in there because the protesters were not actually allowed to enter the whole of parliament square the way they did, hence the kettle so the police could deal with the massive group of people.
    As agreed. The march up to P Square was non violent. Violence started when people were unable to move beyond P Square and were subsequently kettled in P Square
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    (Original post by JMG89)
    Yes those dangerous students using polystyrene sheilds to attack coppers. They could kill somone with those, being incredibly heavy and all. They could use the corners perhaps to poke people. aaaaaaaaaaaahhhh lets ban all Polstyrene so that it can't be used to kill policeman. What if they inhale the small balls that make up polystyrene they might choke. HOW DARE PROTESTERS TRY AND CHOKE THE POLICE. THEY ARE THE DEVIL'S CHILDREN.
    I am sure the armored police were terrified by the foam 'books'.

    They say knowledge is power....
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    (Original post by No Future)
    It is rare for police to beat people and charge at them at concerts. It is rare to be detained against your will at concerts. The situation at the 9/12 protest was different to a concert.

    I can only say what I experienced and saw and it was difficult to move and became dangerous when the police tried to push the crowd back and charge at them on horses. People panicked and some were pushed and knocked over. Somebody could have easily been hurt or trampled by people. Some were trampled by horses.

    As you say, it made sense to get out of the crowd, so I pushed through with a great deal of effort and went to watch from the press area at the time. It was much safer and I had a much better view of what was going on.

    Not everybody was able to escape and some who did try to escape were hit or pushed back by police. I was VERY lucky to escape and put this down to being lucky, not being afraid of galloping horses and not being dressed like a student so I was able to stay in the press area and was fairly unquestioned.
    Ok the concerts reference was not in relation to the police at all so dont misquote me there. It was in reference to a guy saying he was forced to go and push against the police and sadly that hurt him(aww poor guy) because for some reason he couldnt manage to fight his way out through the back of the crowd. YOU can push back through crowds and I know it isnt easy and it takes time and effort and maybe thats why you guys are pretending its impossible.

    If you get out of the crowd and stay away from police and do what they say then they arent going to hurt you.
 
 
 
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