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    (Original post by hollywoodbudgie)
    I'll be honest with you, I know virtually nothing about Turkish politics, (and about politics in general ) so I better not get into this otherwise I'll end up making some pretty absurd statements.
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    You have a family chauffuer? Pssh that's nothing. I've got a personal chauffeur. :cheeky:


    I didn't know much about politics till I started following the Turkish and English elections till a couple of few years ago. Every single political party has flaws none of them are perfect.

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    Indeed I do I also have a mansion on the outskirts of London it's going to be mine once I get rid of my controlling Turkish parents hmm they've left it in my name in their will time to plot an "accidental" fire if I do say so myself lol jk
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    (Original post by ChaoticSkills)
    I didn't know much about politics till I started following the Turkish and English elections till a couple of few years ago. Every single political party has flaws none of them are perfect.

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    Indeed I do I also have a mansion on the outskirts of London it's going to be mine once I get rid of my controlling Turkish parents hmm they've left it in my name in their will time to plot an "accidental" fire if I do say so myself lol jk
    I'm only just starting to learn.

    It's no surprise that I know very little about politics though considering how painfully traditionalist my family is. I'm a Turkish Cypriot girl- My job is to make coffee, vacuum, dust, wash dishes and make cakes :blah: And in terms of gaining knowledge, I only need to be concerned with my lecture notes so that I could get a good job and thus marry a good Turkish husband like a pretty little han?m k?z. :sleep:

    Overall, I think that the young Turkish population is out of touch with politics. It's increasingly being presented as something that's just made to be on late night TV featuring typical white haired overweight men ranting on about things, no better than the old guys you get on Fenerbahce TV. :shakecane:

    It's a pity too because students make powerful political forces. Look at how they were during the last century of the Ottoman Empire. I can't wait to go to the next student protest, but what really annoys me is that the people I go with are even more clueless than me. One of them actually claims to be a communist, but hasn't even heard of Marx. :facepalm:

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    lol u so poor blud. my family has its own Hawaiian island innit and guess who is on the will
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    (Original post by warrior-1)
    Salaam can I post here tho am not a Turk? Basically, am a Pakistani but love turkey and it's people so hi 5 lol

    Basically, am warrior and doin law at the uni of Liverpool.
    I like the liverpool accent
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    (Original post by rhinger)
    Ahh Turkey!

    The country that committed the Armenian/Assyrian/Greek GENOCIDE.
    piss of
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    Wooo Hi!
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      (Original post by hollywoodbudgie)
      Overall, I think that the young Turkish population is out of touch with politics. It's increasingly being presented as something that's just made to be on late night TV featuring typical white haired overweight men ranting on about things, no better than the old guys you get on Fenerbahce TV. :shakecane:
      I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with that. Istanbul is a hive of political activity, with communist and nationalist posters pinned all over the place. And let's also not forget the infamous worker's protests. Politics is very important in the lives of Turkish people and it is a topic which is debated far more frequently among people than it is in England.

      (Original post by rhinger)
      Ahh Turkey!

      The country that committed the Armenian/Assyrian/Greek GENOCIDE.
      You should read some genuine history. The only people who are in position to determine whether or not an act is genocide, at least in this situation, are the Ottoman historians, both Turkish and not.

      Here's an American website about the topic. Here are some articles from the scholars:

      Arend Jan Boekestijn

      Spoiler:
      Show
      "Citizens and politicians living in Western Europe tend to take the high moral ground on issues where they are not themselves directly involved. This is a strategy that runs the risk of applying double standards. It is all very nice to condemn the so-called Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the last century; but what about the national sins of one’s own country? In addition to the holocaust, Germany committed genocide against the Herero tribe in then Southwest Africa; France slaughtered 200.000 Muslims in Algeria during 1954-1962, and what about King Leopold’s Ghost in the Belgian Congo? The list is much longer. Turks do not have a monopoly on human deficit."

      "A number of governments and national parliaments ask Turkey that it recognize Armenia’s claims of genocide. These governments include France, Belgium, Russia, Lebanon, Uruguay, Switzerland, Greece, and Canada. The European Parliament and a number of U.S. states have also recognized the slaughtering of Ottoman Armenians as stemming from a systematic policy of extermination. Turkey fears that the U.S. Congress may soon follow. Recently, the German Parliament adopted a resolution in which the word genocide was not used but still called on the Turks to confront their past."

      "Did the Ottoman Turks really commit genocide? And, is the Turkish government handling this sensitive issue well?

      In article 2 of the present United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (adopted 9 December 1948); genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group:

      (a) Killing members of the group;
      (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
      (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
      (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
      (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

      The problem in identifying whether genocide was committed is the clause: in whole or in part. In part, implies that most wars involve an element of genocide. Genocide only has realmeaning if a government intends to destroy an entire group of human beings. The Armenianside claims that the Ottoman government at the highest level had the intention to kill Armenians. So far, there is no such proof in the Ottoman Archives."

      "Today, the German Holocaust of the Jewish population is widely compared to that of the Armenian massacre. However there are important differences between the two.

      First, Jews had done nothing wrong. They were just there and formed the basis of Hitler’s blatant racism. There is little doubt that the Turks overreacted to the Armenian challenge, but some Armenians did collaborate with the Russian enemy and some of them were involved in guerrilla like activities behind Ottoman defensive lines. This does not justify the Turkish position, but it is wrong to portray the Armenians as completely innocent.

      Second, in Hitler’s Germany, those in power knew what the Nazi’s were doing with the Jews. Most of them chose to support his policies. In Turkey, not all the members of the Turkish government were aware that some of them were using the deportations as an instrument of ethnic cleansing. When they discovered this, they tried to punish the perpetrators. Unfortunately, some of the perpetrators remained in power or acquired even higher positions.

      Third, there was no pre-planned genocide in Turkey, as in the case with the holocaust. No pre-1914 Ottoman government could have had foreknowledge of the outbreak of the First World War or the circumstances under which the deportations would be accomplished. Mainstream Ottoman politics included normal Armenian participation until war began. There is not only no evidence that the CUP government deliberately planned for genocide before 1914, it is also highly unlikely. It would suggest that it intended to carry out the mass murder of an ethnic group something for which there was no precedent in modern history. Moreover, if there had been plans and these were leaked out, intense international opposition possibly leading to an invasion of the Ottoman Empire by other European Powers would have been the result. Viewed in this light, it seems most implausible that the genocide of the Armenians was preplanned.

      Fourth, the historians who question the intention of the Turks to commit genocide are often excellent historians like Bernard Lewis and Gilles Veinstein with some documentary evidence on their side. They are not mendacious anti-Semitic crackpots who enunciate Holocaust denial. And lastly, the CUP never adopted an all-embracing secular, universalistic, quasi-messianic ideology in the style of Nazism and Communism. It remained rooted in traditional (although modernizing) nationalism and a vision of an Islamified Turkey. The events can be read as a botched, wartime panic, overreaction, with premeditation most unlikely and the scale of killings arguably exaggerated.

      Let us try to put these qualifications into perspective. Even if the Armenian massacre cannot be compared to the German Holocaust, even if not all members of the CUP government knew that some of their colleagues were bent on solving the Eastern question once and for all, the fact remains that between 600.000 and 900.000 Armenians died of murder, starvation, and exhaustion."


      Youssef Courbage

      Spoiler:
      Show
      "The Armenian community was in 1915-16 brutally deported from Turkey to the Arab periphery. If any Armenians remained in Anatolia after the deportation and slaughter, the erroneous policies of the Russians, Americans and French at the war soon hastened their disappearance." P. 109

      "An American scholar who reconsidered the issue in the 1980s has carefully examined the Ottoman data with the aid of modern demographic methods. He estimated the Armenian population at 1.6 million and concluded that there had been no deliberate falsification, but rather a normal under-estimate arising from enumeration techniques of the time. If we deduct this from the 77,000 Armenians counted in the 1927 census, we find that the population was reduced by about 1.5 million people as a result of the massacre itself as well as emigration (whether enforced or voluntary) and conversion."

      "The Turkish argument, recently put forward, acknowledges that deportation took place but describes it as “relocation”. It also admits the size of the operation – 703,000 people of both sexes and of all ages according to the official Ottoman source – that is almost 70 per cent of Armenians.” However, it regards the deportation as a fact of war, inevitable given the Armenian collusion with the Russian enemy. This argument also accepts that more than 300,000 Armenians died, but disputes that they did so at the hands of Turks. Far from being a massacre orchestrated from on high, the deaths were a side-effect of the war, a consequence of epidemics or debilitation during the exodus, or a result of battles between armies and rival militias."


      Phillip Fargues

      Spoiler:
      Show
      "The Turkish argument, recently put forward, acknowledges that deportation took place but describes it as “relocation”. It also admits the size of the operation – 703,000 people of both sexes and of all ages according to the official Ottoman source – that is almost 70 per cent of Armenians.” However, it regards the deportation as a fact of war, inevitable given the Armenian collusion with the Russian enemy. This argument also accepts that more than 300,000 Armenians died, but disputes that they did so at the hands of Turks. Far from being a massacre orchestrated from on high, the deaths were a side-effect of the war, a consequence of epidemics or debilitation during the exodus, or a result of battles between armies and rival militias."


      Secondly, the Armenians themselves massacred many thousands in their revolt. Here are some pictures:

      Dynamite and Gunpowder found in Izmir

      Weapons and explosive devices taken from the Armenians of Urfa

      Arms taken from the Armenians in Trabzon

      Arms taken from Armenians in Amasya

      Arms found at an Armenian school

      Armenian revolutionaries using Russian cannons. Showing that they were proxies of the Tzar

      Armenian "cete" or gang , these gangs went around killing other Armenians suspected of sympathizing with the Sultan , and also prominent Turks. Notable victims include the Archibishop of Istanbul (the de facto leader of the Armenians)

      Thus it comes as no surprise that the Armenians had to be moved from the Turko-Russian frontier during the war. They were like the Tzar's militia causing strife from within the borders. Of course, what happened during the exodus was tragic and one can't help but regret what happened. But nonetheless, it's better you stand from a more educated and enlightened viewpoint, than go about pointing fingers just because you've been indoctrinated to.

      Thank you.
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      (Original post by RamocitoMorales)
      I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with that. Istanbul is a hive of political activity, with communist and nationalist posters pinned all over the place. And let's also not forget the infamous worker's protests. Politics is very important in the lives of Turkish people and it is a topic which is debated far more frequently among people than it is in England.



      You should read some genuine history. The only people who are in position to determine whether or not an act is genocide, at least in this situation, are the Ottoman historians, both Turkish and not.

      Here's an American website about the topic. Here are some articles from the scholars:

      Arend Jan Boekestijn

      Spoiler:
      Show
      "Citizens and politicians living in Western Europe tend to take the high moral ground on issues where they are not themselves directly involved. This is a strategy that runs the risk of applying double standards. It is all very nice to condemn the so-called Armenian genocide by the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the last century; but what about the national sins of one’s own country? In addition to the holocaust, Germany committed genocide against the Herero tribe in then Southwest Africa; France slaughtered 200.000 Muslims in Algeria during 1954-1962, and what about King Leopold’s Ghost in the Belgian Congo? The list is much longer. Turks do not have a monopoly on human deficit."

      "A number of governments and national parliaments ask Turkey that it recognize Armenia’s claims of genocide. These governments include France, Belgium, Russia, Lebanon, Uruguay, Switzerland, Greece, and Canada. The European Parliament and a number of U.S. states have also recognized the slaughtering of Ottoman Armenians as stemming from a systematic policy of extermination. Turkey fears that the U.S. Congress may soon follow. Recently, the German Parliament adopted a resolution in which the word genocide was not used but still called on the Turks to confront their past."

      "Did the Ottoman Turks really commit genocide? And, is the Turkish government handling this sensitive issue well?

      In article 2 of the present United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (adopted 9 December 1948); genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group:

      (a) Killing members of the group;
      (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
      (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
      (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
      (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

      The problem in identifying whether genocide was committed is the clause: in whole or in part. In part, implies that most wars involve an element of genocide. Genocide only has realmeaning if a government intends to destroy an entire group of human beings. The Armenianside claims that the Ottoman government at the highest level had the intention to kill Armenians. So far, there is no such proof in the Ottoman Archives."

      "Today, the German Holocaust of the Jewish population is widely compared to that of the Armenian massacre. However there are important differences between the two.

      First, Jews had done nothing wrong. They were just there and formed the basis of Hitler’s blatant racism. There is little doubt that the Turks overreacted to the Armenian challenge, but some Armenians did collaborate with the Russian enemy and some of them were involved in guerrilla like activities behind Ottoman defensive lines. This does not justify the Turkish position, but it is wrong to portray the Armenians as completely innocent.

      Second, in Hitler’s Germany, those in power knew what the Nazi’s were doing with the Jews. Most of them chose to support his policies. In Turkey, not all the members of the Turkish government were aware that some of them were using the deportations as an instrument of ethnic cleansing. When they discovered this, they tried to punish the perpetrators. Unfortunately, some of the perpetrators remained in power or acquired even higher positions.

      Third, there was no pre-planned genocide in Turkey, as in the case with the holocaust. No pre-1914 Ottoman government could have had foreknowledge of the outbreak of the First World War or the circumstances under which the deportations would be accomplished. Mainstream Ottoman politics included normal Armenian participation until war began. There is not only no evidence that the CUP government deliberately planned for genocide before 1914, it is also highly unlikely. It would suggest that it intended to carry out the mass murder of an ethnic group something for which there was no precedent in modern history. Moreover, if there had been plans and these were leaked out, intense international opposition possibly leading to an invasion of the Ottoman Empire by other European Powers would have been the result. Viewed in this light, it seems most implausible that the genocide of the Armenians was preplanned.

      Fourth, the historians who question the intention of the Turks to commit genocide are often excellent historians like Bernard Lewis and Gilles Veinstein with some documentary evidence on their side. They are not mendacious anti-Semitic crackpots who enunciate Holocaust denial. And lastly, the CUP never adopted an all-embracing secular, universalistic, quasi-messianic ideology in the style of Nazism and Communism. It remained rooted in traditional (although modernizing) nationalism and a vision of an Islamified Turkey. The events can be read as a botched, wartime panic, overreaction, with premeditation most unlikely and the scale of killings arguably exaggerated.

      Let us try to put these qualifications into perspective. Even if the Armenian massacre cannot be compared to the German Holocaust, even if not all members of the CUP government knew that some of their colleagues were bent on solving the Eastern question once and for all, the fact remains that between 600.000 and 900.000 Armenians died of murder, starvation, and exhaustion."


      Youssef Courbage

      Spoiler:
      Show
      "The Armenian community was in 1915-16 brutally deported from Turkey to the Arab periphery. If any Armenians remained in Anatolia after the deportation and slaughter, the erroneous policies of the Russians, Americans and French at the war soon hastened their disappearance." P. 109

      "An American scholar who reconsidered the issue in the 1980s has carefully examined the Ottoman data with the aid of modern demographic methods. He estimated the Armenian population at 1.6 million and concluded that there had been no deliberate falsification, but rather a normal under-estimate arising from enumeration techniques of the time. If we deduct this from the 77,000 Armenians counted in the 1927 census, we find that the population was reduced by about 1.5 million people as a result of the massacre itself as well as emigration (whether enforced or voluntary) and conversion."

      "The Turkish argument, recently put forward, acknowledges that deportation took place but describes it as “relocation”. It also admits the size of the operation – 703,000 people of both sexes and of all ages according to the official Ottoman source – that is almost 70 per cent of Armenians.” However, it regards the deportation as a fact of war, inevitable given the Armenian collusion with the Russian enemy. This argument also accepts that more than 300,000 Armenians died, but disputes that they did so at the hands of Turks. Far from being a massacre orchestrated from on high, the deaths were a side-effect of the war, a consequence of epidemics or debilitation during the exodus, or a result of battles between armies and rival militias."


      Phillip Fargues

      Spoiler:
      Show
      "The Turkish argument, recently put forward, acknowledges that deportation took place but describes it as “relocation”. It also admits the size of the operation – 703,000 people of both sexes and of all ages according to the official Ottoman source – that is almost 70 per cent of Armenians.” However, it regards the deportation as a fact of war, inevitable given the Armenian collusion with the Russian enemy. This argument also accepts that more than 300,000 Armenians died, but disputes that they did so at the hands of Turks. Far from being a massacre orchestrated from on high, the deaths were a side-effect of the war, a consequence of epidemics or debilitation during the exodus, or a result of battles between armies and rival militias."


      Secondly, the Armenians themselves massacred many thousands in their revolt. Here are some pictures:

      Dynamite and Gunpowder found in Izmir

      Weapons and explosive devices taken from the Armenians of Urfa

      Arms taken from the Armenians in Trabzon

      Arms taken from Armenians in Amasya

      Arms found at an Armenian school

      Armenian revolutionaries using Russian cannons. Showing that they were proxies of the Tzar

      Armenian "cete" or gang , these gangs went around killing other Armenians suspected of sympathizing with the Sultan , and also prominent Turks. Notable victims include the Archibishop of Istanbul (the de facto leader of the Armenians)

      Thus it comes as no surprise that the Armenians had to be moved from the Turko-Russian frontier during the war. They were like the Tzar's militia causing strife from within the borders. Of course, what happened during the exodus was tragic and one can't help but regret what happened. But nonetheless, it's better you stand from a more educated and enlightened viewpoint, than go about pointing fingers just because you've been indoctrinated to.

      Thank you.
      Totally agree with you! thankyou!
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      (Original post by rhinger)
      Off*

      Yet another denier of the truth. Why can't you Turks just admit to the Genocide? There's proof everywhere.

      No wonder Europe hates you.
      There is always just that one low person :rolleyes:
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      (Original post by rhinger)
      Ahh Turkey!

      The country that committed the Armenian/Assyrian/Greek GENOCIDE.
      Umm.. hmm... what an uneducated and ignorant fool you are.. piss off as a fellow person here also said! idiot
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      (Original post by rhinger)
      Off*

      Yet another denier of the truth. Why can't you Turks just admit to the Genocide? There's proof everywhere.

      No wonder Europe hates you.
      you really are stupid.. go read some history books fool! plus this is really not the place for this.. what are you going to gain by spreading hate? Just pis off to another thread
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        (Original post by mlsdbk)
        Umm.. hmm... what an uneducated and ignorant fool you are.. piss off as a fellow person here also said! idiot
        I'd have to disagree. The fellow man has his own opinion of events and he's entitled to it. If he's willing to debate in an educated and civilized manner then he's welcome to do so. But if he'd rather cause strife and disruption, then he can, as another member put it, 'piss off'. :wink2:

        (Original post by mlsdbk)
        plus this is really not the place for this.. what are you going to gain by spreading hate? Just pis off to another thread.
        Although I suppose you're right in that this probably isn't the place.
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        (Original post by RamocitoMorales)
        I'd have to disagree. The fellow man has his own opinion of events and he's entitled to it. If he's willing to debate in an educated and civilized manner then he's welcome to do so. But if he'd rather cause strife and disruption, then he can, as another member put it, 'piss off'. :wink2:



        Although I suppose you're right in that this probably isn't the place.
        Exactly.. and he's not doing it in a 'civilised manner' he is being offensive.. look what he said.. 'europe hates you' he can definitely piss off
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        (Original post by mlsdbk)
        Exactly.. and he's not doing it in a 'civilised manner' he is being offensive.. look what he said.. 'europe hates you' he can definitely piss off
        Welcome to the thread! :dancing2:

        (Original post by RamocitoMorales)
        I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with that.
        I better stop posting about politics before checking if it's correct with you first. :sadnod:
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        Mustafa Kemal Ataturk forever!!! <3
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        (Original post by rhinger)
        Off*

        Yet another denier of the truth. Why can't you Turks just admit to the Genocide? There's proof everywhere.

        No wonder Europe hates you.
        Every country has its low points jackass, and the only people who hate us are stupid xenophobic trolls like you who can only find solice within the internet. When you say "hates you" you're referring to the ottoman monacy/government who committed these "crimes" not the actual people of my country.
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        Also in response to the idiot, check out religous tolerance within the Ottoman empire and how the Sephardic Jews sought refge within our colonies/territories after the Spanish inquisition.

        If countries want us to admit the genocide they should admit their own crimes, a few things spring to mind.

        The French Genocide of the Algerians
        Belgian Genocide against the Congolese
        Russian Oppression vs The Chechens
        Englands indirect effect on the Potato famine in Ireland
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        (Original post by ChaoticSkills)
        Also in response to the idiot, check out religous tolerance within the Ottoman empire and how the Sephardic Jews sought refge within our colonies/territories after the Spanish inquisition.

        If countries want us to admit the genocide they should admit their own crimes, a few things spring to mind.

        The French Genocide of the Algerians
        Belgian Genocide against the Congolese
        Russian Oppression vs The Chechens
        Englands indirect effect on the Potato famine in Ireland
        Someone's been reading some Seamus Heaney...

        (Original post by G_S)
        There is always just that one low person :rolleyes:
        Haters gonna hate hun. :cool:
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        (Original post by rhinger)
        Ahh Turkey!

        The country that committed the Armenian/Assyrian/Greek GENOCIDE.
        Wow you sir will be hated forever now, I am sure we will have a notice saying 'no rhinger's" soon, then we will hack your computer, find out where you live, come to your house, take over it slowly, remove your head from your body.... (story continues of us killling your family and then everyone your related to)

        Then you will be sorry, I hope you are prepared for the dark days of DOOM!
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        (Original post by hollywoodbudgie)
        Someone's been reading some Seamus Heaney...
        I did in college, him and Yates were the most prominent poets we discussed. Just a shame I never got a decent grade from English Literature.
       
       
       
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