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    What if the companies paid the workers a decent wage after making millions off their land
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    (Original post by hamix)
    well, they got "enslaved" for a reason. life made Africa the backward continent.
    Not really , European powers made African countries backward and now African eladers in their own right. In the 1800s and 1900s, the European powers claimed Afrifcan Nations as theirs and split them up into uncomfortable borders, where ethnic rivals were often placed into the same governments and same administrations. They took resources from the country and took it back with them to their European countries- slave labour basically. To subjugate the population, they would do awful things. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold...te_colonialism .

    After the Europeans sucked the continent dry, they put in place corrupt leaders who had allegiance to Europe but who only wanted power and money, and got that by being friendly to the Europeans. Thus many countries never advanced since their leaders never gave them any room to advance.

    On top of that, the European leaders didnt start forgiving the debt that they put on the africans until the 1990s.


    In additon most African countries are VERY young e.g Nigeria is 51 today; it took America 200 years to be ranked a powerful country.
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    (Original post by Silver Arrow)
    You're the tool here mate. Discuss means that people are invited to give their opinions on the matter at hand so that an educated discussiona dn exchange of ideas can take place.
    Something which you clearly failed massively at as you proceeded to name calling.
    Like a thread on TSR would not automatically be bombarded with opinion and discussion?
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    (Original post by Left Hand Drive)
    What if the companies paid the workers a decent wage after making millions off their land
    Workers or the international workers they use? How will the money be useful in the case of these people http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...ell-oil-spills
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14398659
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    (Original post by Ebuwa)
    Not really , European powers made African countries backward and now African eladers in their own right. In the 1800s and 1900s, the European powers claimed Afrifcan Nations as theirs and split them up into uncomfortable borders, where ethnic rivals were often placed into the same governments and same administrations. They took resources from the country and took it back with them to their European countries- slave labour basically. To subjugate the population, they would do awful things. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold...te_colonialism .

    After the Europeans sucked the continent dry, they put in place corrupt leaders who had allegiance to Europe but who only wanted power and money, and got that by being friendly to the Europeans. Thus many countries never advanced since their leaders never gave them any room to advance.

    On top of that, the European leaders didnt start forgiving the debt that they put on the africans until the 1990s.


    In additon most African countries are VERY young e.g Nigeria is 51 today; it took America 200 years to be ranked a powerful country.
    Colonialism brought to Africa modern -Technology, Science, Engineering, Industry, Infrastructure, medicine and agricultural techniques thatfeed the whole continent.

    Yeah these things thatwere contributed by colonialism really made Africa backwards :rolleyes:
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    Whoever Understudy is, please may you repost because my computer tells me that you've quoted me twice but I can't see it.
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    (Original post by Ebuwa)
    Whoever Understudy is, please may you repost because my computer tells me that you've quoted me twice but I can't see it.
    Colonialism contributed a great deal to Africa such as modern technology, Science, technology, industry, medicine, infrastructure, agricultural methods that feed half of Africa. Colonialism did not turn Africa backwards, Africans themselves has turned Africa backwards. Colonialism pushed Africa form the stone age into the modern era.
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    (Original post by Aequat omnes cinis)
    Except Tunisia, Eygpt and Libya have all recently undergone revolutions and these resources are now being used for the good of the people of the countries e.g. Gaddafi got rich off Libyan oil; now he is gone, this resource is available to the Libyan people. It is of course more complex than this, but you get the point, Africa precisely because it has such a large population and so many resouces has a brighter future.

    What revolution ? oh yeah, removing their "evil dictators" . And look where they are now.
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    I thought people might be interested to see a documentary I found today about Thomas Sankara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvBC7tmgFFM
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    (Original post by Understudy)
    Colonialism contributed a great deal to Africa such as modern technology, Science, technology, industry, medicine, infrastructure, agricultural methods that feed half of Africa. Colonialism did not turn Africa backwards, Africans themselves has turned Africa backwards. Colonialism pushed Africa form the stone age into the modern era.
    I also mentioned African leaders. No it did not. There is no point in me counterarguing you because you will still be ignorant
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    (Original post by Ebuwa)
    I also mentioned African leaders. No it did not. There is no point in me counterarguing you because you will still be ignorant
    Ignorant of what ? You are implying that colonialism has made Africa backwards, I contested this. Colonialis brought with it many advances and technologies that pushed Africa into the moden era. Without colonialism Africans would still be living a nomadic, stone age hunter gatherer life.

    You are very quick to blame Africas problems on big bad whitey and like many Africans you take absolutely no responsibility for you self made problems. I alos think you are a hypocrate as you live in a white country, I wonder why that is
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    (Original post by PendulumBoB)
    1. I believe that IQ is genetic (based on twin studies), but this is another debate.

    2. I agree, there were pockets of developed civilisation, I was saying such to provoke a reaction.

    It's not a justification, it's more that I feel that the argument that Africa is poor because of the European is incomplete as it was European technology which allowed white people to oppress Africans in the first place. I'm interested in a development of the argument to hear why this situation came to be.

    Geography?
    Well for example, the relative success of the British Empire is often attributed to the fact that Britain is an island, and as such has significant natural defence against foreign invasion. British climate makes our land incredibly arable (in contrast with much of Africa) so it is far less susceptible to devastating famine.

    It could certainly be argued, I'm sure, that Africa is lacking in the geographical benefits bestowed on the European countries.

    But again, I think there is significant danger in judging a people solely on their technological and military achievements.
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    (Original post by Understudy)
    Ignorant of what ? You are implying that colonialism has made Africa backwards, I contested this. Colonialis brought with it many advances and technologies that pushed Africa into the moden era. Without colonialism Africans would still be living a nomadic, stone age hunter gatherer life.

    You are very quick to blame Africas problems on big bad whitey and like many Africans you take absolutely no responsibility for you self made problems. I alos think you are a hypocrate as you live in a white country, I wonder why that is
    How could you possibly know that?

    Furthermore, it simply isn't true. The African continent had produced great civilisations thousands of years before anything comparable in Europe.

    The pyramids were built about the same time as Stone Henge.

    We laud Stone Henge as being a great achievement! Have you seen it? It's ****.

    We still don't know how the pyramids were built, on the other hand. And they literally dwarf Stone Henge
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    (Original post by Mr Disco)
    How could you possibly know that?

    Furthermore, it simply isn't true. The African continent had produced great civilisations thousands of years before anything comparable in Europe.

    The pyramids were built about the same time as Stone Henge.

    We laud Stone Henge as being a great achievement! Have you seen it? It's ****.

    We still don't know how the pyramids were built, on the other hand. And they literally dwarf Stone Henge
    Its a fair judgment and I use common sense. Sub saharan Africans were living a stone age existance before Europeans arrived. There is no chance in hell that Africans were to advance into the modern era on their own and within 200 years, don't be so bloody stupid. The pyramids were not built by blacks, they were built by egyptians
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    (Original post by Understudy)
    Its a fair judgment and I use common sense. Sub saharan Africans were living a stone age existance before Europeans arrived. There is no chance in hell that Africans were to advance into the modern era on their own and within 200 years, don't be so bloody stupid. The pyramids were not built by blacks, they were built by egyptians
    Sorry, at what point did this become a debate about "blacks"?

    This was a debate about Africans.

    I can't be sure, but I THINK Egyptians are Africans.

    The "common sense" you mention seems most conspicuous by its absence.

    1. Explain what you mean by "stone age existence". You treat this assertion as self evident, or having been justified, when I see at this time no reason to treat it as true.

    2. If colonialism was so advantageous to Africa, why do so many of inhabitants suffer in abject poverty, starve to death and die of preventable causes in numbers and percentages far higher, as far as it can be quantified, then pre European arrival?
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    (Original post by Mr Disco)
    Sorry, at what point did this become a debate about "blacks"?

    This was a debate about Africans.

    I can't be sure, but I THINK Egyptians are Africans.

    The "common sense" you mention seems most conspicuous by its absence.

    1. Explain what you mean by "stone age existence". You treat this assertion as self evident, or having been justified, when I see at this time no reason to treat it as true.

    2. If colonialism was so advantageous to Africa, why do so many of inhabitants suffer in abject poverty, starve to death and die of preventable causes in numbers and percentages far higher, as far as it can be quantified, then pre European arrival?
    1. No I will not explain that term further, you know full well what I mean by stone age existance.

    2. Can I see some sources and statistics on the average life expectancy, and the number of deaths from diseases and preventable deaths from before the colonialism era ? And what do you mean poverty, do you mean poverty as opposed to living a nomadic stone age hunter gatherer existance :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Understudy)
    Its a fair judgment and I use common sense. Sub saharan Africans were living a stone age existance before Europeans arrived. There is no chance in hell that Africans were to advance into the modern era on their own and within 200 years, don't be so bloody stupid. The pyramids were not built by blacks, they were built by egyptians
    I thought I'd say something here, as a sub saharan African myself.

    Yes, I agree that Africa as a continent has huge problems, and the roots of many of these problems can be traced back to both Africans as well as imperialists/ other exploiters of the continent's people and resources.

    However, I will objectively say that sub saharan Africans were NOT living a stone age existence before Europeans arrived, as you have so ignorantly stated and definitely not nomadic, as you earlier said. Some cultures were nomadic (e.g. the Fulani Bororo) but that is only some, and I'm not sure how this point differs from the nomadic gypsies in the UK.

    Before the arrival of Europeans, sub saharan Africans had well established trade routes with North Africa and beyond, and very many civilisations existed. Yes, there were some ethnic groups who were far less civilised, but don't pretend to be so knowledgeable about matters you know nothing about. These civilisations were far more developed than I can imagine you would ever accept.

    It might help you to read more about such civilisations:

    Kanem-Bornu empire (dating back to 700 AD)
    Mali empire (dating back to 1230)
    Benin Empire (dating back to 1440)
    Nok civilisation (dating back to around 1000 B.C)
    Ife city (with urbanisation dating back to 500AD)

    And on the point about the pyramids not being built by blacks...oh, really? How are you so sure? http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...rt-draper-text
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...ce_controversy

    If you truly believe that black Africans didn't have the capacity to build structures, have you heard about the walls of Benin city (part of the Benin empire- construction began in about 800 AD), the second largest man-made structure in the world (the first being the walls of China). Would you like to debate whether the people in modern day Nigeria were truly black or not now? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walls_of_Benin
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    (Original post by Understudy)
    1. No I will not explain that term further, you know full well what I mean by stone age existance.

    2. Can I see some sources and statistics on the average life expectancy, and the number of deaths from diseases and preventable deaths from before the colonialism era ? And what do you mean poverty, do you mean poverty as opposed to living a nomadic stone age hunter gatherer existance :rolleyes:
    So I am simply supposed to "know" what you mean by "stone age existence", but have to explain the term "poverty" to you.

    Very few people would find the phrase "abject poverty" to be a source of confusion or debate, it is a concept that is both easy to understand, and easy to quantify.

    YOU are the one asserting that colonialism was of great overall benefit to the inhabitants of Africa. It is incumbent upon you to demonstrate how much better off Africa is for having its natural resources taken and its people enslaved.

    Don't forget, the benefits need to outweigh:

    The subjugation of people across the continent, past and present. The population of the Congo was halved under the brutal rule of Leopold II of Belgium, an estimated toll of 15 million preventable deaths. This is just one example, you would need to compile similar statistics for just about every country in Africa. You would need to include deaths suffered as a result of fighting against invasion. Start with the death toll in Abyssinia as a result of Mussolini's campaign there and work south.


    The years of civil war and political instability in places like Angola, Kenya and The Sudan following hasty and ill thought out retreats from the Portuguese, British and French.

    The minerals and natural resources of which the continent has been stripped.

    I look forward to your demonstration that these negatives were indeed outweighed, or an apology for your objectionable, unsustainable claim.
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    (Original post by Mr Disco)
    So I am simply supposed to "know" what you mean by "stone age existence", but have to explain the term "poverty" to you.

    Very few people would find the phrase "abject poverty" to be a source of confusion or debate, it is a concept that is both easy to understand, and easy to quantify.

    YOU are the one asserting that colonialism was of great overall benefit to the inhabitants of Africa. It is incumbent upon you to demonstrate how much better off Africa is for having its natural resources taken and its people enslaved.

    Don't forget, the benefits need to outweigh:

    The subjugation of people across the continent, past and present. The population of the Congo was halved under the brutal rule of Leopold II of Belgium, an estimated toll of 15 million preventable deaths. This is just one example, you would need to compile similar statistics for just about every country in Africa. You would need to include deaths suffered as a result of fighting against invasion. Start with the death toll in Abyssinia as a result of Mussolini's campaign there and work south.


    The years of civil war and political instability in places like Angola, Kenya and The Sudan following hasty and ill thought out retreats from the Portuguese, British and French.

    The minerals and natural resources of which the continent has been stripped.

    I look forward to your demonstration that these negatives were indeed outweighed, or an apology for your objectionable, unsustainable claim.
    I have already stated the benefits of colonialialism. And yes I believe they outweight the disdvantages of colonialism.
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    (Original post by Understudy)
    I have already stated the benefits of colonialialism. And yes I believe they outweight the disdvantages of colonialism.
 
 
 
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