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    (Original post by toddman10)
    I feel more associated with the Ulster flag or the green harp flag than the Irish tri-colour which is unusual I suppose.
    Did a Battlefield tour of teh Somme a few months back. Saw the memorial sto the Ulster and the Irish divsions. Quite moving. Ulster tower is lovely. It's like a fairy tale castle built on flesh on bone.

    Quick question for our Irsh cousins if they don't mind.

    Had concerns about conscription and the poor treatment of the rebel leaders not happened, do you think that there would've been the seperation?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Did a Battlefield tour of teh Somme a few months back. Saw the memorial sto the Ulster and the Irish divsions. Quite moving. Ulster tower is lovely. It's like a fairy tale castle built on flesh on bone.

    Quick question for our Irsh cousins if they don't mind.

    Had concerns about conscription and the poor treatment of the rebel leaders not happened, do you think that there would've been the seperation?
    I didn't know the Ulster tower existed until I googled it, my great-grandfathers brother died with the Ulster Division, or could have been Connaught Rangers, not sure.
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    (Original post by toddman10)
    I didn't know the Ulster tower existed until I googled it, my great-grandfathers brother died with the Ulster Division, or could have been Connaught Rangers, not sure.
    I'd recommend a trip atleast once for everybody. It's a great leveller and will more than likely shut up the gobby ones.
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    (Original post by toddman10)
    I feel more associated with the Ulster flag or the green harp flag than the Irish tri-colour which is unusual I suppose.
    Really? The Irish tri-colour is a wonderful piece of political trickery. Create a flag that symbolises peace between you and your opponents so that when your opponents complain about it they look none too clever.
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    Really? The Irish tri-colour is a wonderful piece of political trickery. Create a flag that symbolises peace between you and your opponents so that when your opponents complain about it they look none too clever.
    It's just a pity that a fringe minority never took that lesson to heart. As did an equally small fringe minority of muppets on the other side of the divide.
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    Really? The Irish tri-colour is a wonderful piece of political trickery. Create a flag that symbolises peace between you and your opponents so that when your opponents complain about it they look none too clever.
    but you can also look at it the other way, the union jack represents Christian saints does it not? the 2 flags have been ruined by the conflict, the union jack makes a nationalist feel physically sick and the same for unionists and the tri-colour. I was at mass at easter and they always fly the tri-colour on easter sunday as there are some 1970's republicans buried there, I know the flag means peace but I can imagine what unionsts think when they drive past the church
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Did a Battlefield tour of teh Somme a few months back. Saw the memorial sto the Ulster and the Irish divsions. Quite moving. Ulster tower is lovely. It's like a fairy tale castle built on flesh on bone.

    Quick question for our Irsh cousins if they don't mind.

    Had concerns about conscription and the poor treatment of the rebel leaders not happened, do you think that there would've been the seperation?
    Some form of devolved government most certainly would have. After the famine there was major political upheaval. People felt it necessary to secure their own future and take control after being left in the lurch by absentee landlords and the British Government. People talk about the Cultural revival- the Gaelic League, the GAA, Nationalist influenced poets and dramatists.

    However the really important movement that is often overlooked was the Land League. They basically set out to abolish landlordism, to return control to the farmers and in doing so reduce the British influence in the country.

    Then of course there was Parnell and the Home Rulers.

    I would agree however that the poor treatment of the Rising prisoners, the threat of conscription, the delay in Home Rule and the capitulation of the Home Rule Party definitely played in to the hands of Sinn Fein.
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    (Original post by toddman10)
    but you can also look at it the other way, the union jack represents Christian saints does it not? the 2 flags have been ruined by the conflict, the union jack makes a nationalist feel physically sick and the same for unionists and the tri-colour. I was at mass at easter and they always fly the tri-colour on easter sunday as there are some 1970's republicans buried there, I know the flag means peace but I can imagine what unionsts think when they drive past the church
    Flags are political symbols. Political symbols are there to be abused.
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    recently become good friends with an Irish girl, and apparently no we do not. a lot of the things she has told me about I had not even heard of at all, let alone heard from a different point of view
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    (Original post by DK_Tipp)
    That's a very simplistic view. The people of Dublin were disgusted at the Rising because of the damage it did to the city and because many had loved ones fighting for the British Army in WW1.

    Celebrating the Easter Rising is something of a fabrication. We do it because we could never celebrate the War of Independence because the divisions the outcome caused. That was Ireland's truly democratic revolution, Sinn Fein had a mandate from the people finally fed up and disillusioned of Britain, angry at the execution of Rising leaders, and fearful at the horror of WW1 and the threat of forced conscription in 1918.
    The people of Dublin were more disgusted at the British answer to the Easter Rising more so than the Republicans who took over the GPO. To say they were disgusted at "the damage it did to the city" is simplistic in itself and explains very little.

    The result of the War of Independence was anything but democratic, it was born of fear of proper war with Britain. They'd seen enough of British brutality. I'd assume you know fine rightly about the criticism of the Border Commission, it wasn't exactly a popular decision, just one that would avoid out right war. It wasn't a popular decision either side of the border. Edward Carson certainly had no desire to partition Ireland. He was very much and Irishman, as well as Unionist.

    We can't think of Republicanism and Unionism in the same light as we do today. "Northern Irish" didn't exist, Irishness and Britishness co-existed comfortably to Unionists, if even. They'd pledged to fight the British to remain British, a paradox in itself and the reason Unionism has been dying ever since.
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    (Original post by Jim-ie)
    The people of Dublin were more disgusted at the British answer to the Easter Rising more so than the Republicans who took over the GPO. To say they were disgusted at "the damage it did to the city" is simplistic in itself and explains very little.

    The result of the War of Independence was anything but democratic, it was born of fear of proper war with Britain. They'd seen enough of British brutality. I'd assume you know fine rightly about the criticism of the Border Commission, it wasn't exactly a popular decision, just one that would avoid out right war. It wasn't a popular decision either side of the border. Edward Carson certainly had no desire to partition Ireland. He was very much and Irishman, as well as Unionist.

    We can't think of Republicanism and Unionism in the same light as we do today. "Northern Irish" didn't exist, Irishness and Britishness co-existed comfortably to Unionists, if even. They'd pledged to fight the British to remain British, a paradox in itself and the reason Unionism has been dying ever since.

    There was a lot of anger at the rebels in Dublin. The prisoners were jeered. The British involvement and there reckless shelling of the city centre wasn't very popular either I'll agree.

    I never claimed the outcome of the War of Independence was democratic, I said it was the one revolution which had been mandated by the Irish people through the ballot box. Of course the acceptance of the Treaty was borne out of fear, nobody had the stomach for all out war, they were running out of ammo, the people just wanted rid of the Tans and a government in Dublin. That didn't give the anti-Treaty forces a mandate for Civil War.

    As for the Border commission. I think we can agree nobody was happy with the result of that. I think the pro-Treaty faction hoped it would lead to the collapse of Northern Ireland by handing over enough territory to make it non-viable. Of course the Free State was bloody and bruised after a Civil War so whether they had much interest or much bargaining power is debatable.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Even they're loosing support on the issue

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0206/366...ro-union-vote/

    People ar elooking south and not liking what they see.
    This interpretation lacks understanding of the Nationalist mentality, which generally is a lot more pragmatic than people give them credit for. I know staunch Nationalists who would currently vote pro-UK because the time is not right, that doesn't mean SF are losing support.
 
 
 
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