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    It seems like you've got two problems


    1. Posters are posting things that are detrimental to productive discussion


    2. This could be a concerted effort by organised political groups, like the EDL and whatnot


    While the second is more difficult to prove, its also more difficult and less necessary to deal with, immediately, than the first, I think.


    As you say; students can be a potent political force, but only a coherent one when we have coherent discussions ( on what we think is the case, what we want to change, why we want to effect that change and how to go about it).


    And as Mazzini expressed, and I feel, as I'm sure many others do, that this trolling/ astroturfing/attention seeking etc makes you not want to engage with people because it seems pointless. You articulate your ideas for forums to communicate them with others so that they can critique them. you might not do this if you think that everyone will act like chefdave: who in this thread basically said that fullofsurprises' opinions were invalid because other people have different ones, or others that dismiss a idea by giving it a name ( in this case socialism/liberalism/nazi-communism).


    I think all thats needed is a bit of intellectual courage, if we ignore posts like this and try to articulate our views more, anyone desirous of earnest discussion could see this and do the same, think about all the posts that have been spent sneering at neocons (especially you OP) that could have been spent on articulating positive change.
    There's much to gain and what would we lose?
    I wouldn't miss engaging with posters like a729, who basically go through threads and reply to everyone with "you good" or "you bad".

    AND LASTLY if there is a concerted astroturfing effort in effect, then we should be able to see it better because, more productive discussions should get these factions to change their behavior , no?


    Apologies for the length, please reply (bring critiques)
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    No idea about these guys you're talking about but in general left wingers these days are much more inward looking, smug, and self congratulatory than others. What's pathetic is that most genuinely believe in the pure objective truth and righteousness of their arguments and can not think for a minute that maybe the other side have a point. You've demonstrated it here once again, there must be something 'wrong' with people who disagree with my opinion.
    I'm referring to a specific group of people, not all right-wingers. There are smart right-wingers here (see: MagicNMedicine's post, although pretty much all of them are socially liberal so I'd agree with them on most points I'm passionate about anyway), but there is also a very vocal group of idiots and I've spent enough time here looking at their tedious alarmist debating tactics to say so.
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    (Original post by laserocrates)
    It seems like you've got two problems


    1. Posters are posting things that are detrimental to productive discussion


    2. This could be a concerted effort by organised political groups, like the EDL and whatnot


    While the second is more difficult to prove, its also more difficult and less necessary to deal with, immediately, than the first, I think.


    As you say; students can be a potent political force, but only a coherent one when we have coherent discussions ( on what we think is the case, what we want to change, why we want to effect that change and how to go about it).


    And as Mazzini expressed, and I feel, as I'm sure many others do, that this trolling/ astroturfing/attention seeking etc makes you not want to engage with people because it seems pointless. You articulate your ideas for forums to communicate them with others so that they can critique them. you might not do this if you think that everyone will act like chefdave: who in this thread basically said that fullofsurprises' opinions were invalid because other people have different ones, or others that dismiss a idea by giving it a name ( in this case socialism/liberalism/nazi-communism).


    I think all thats needed is a bit of intellectual courage, if we ignore posts like this and try to articulate our views more, anyone desirous of earnest discussion could see this and do the same, think about all the posts that have been spent sneering at neocons (especially you OP) that could have been spent on articulating positive change.
    There's much to gain and what would we lose?
    I wouldn't miss engaging with posters like a729, who basically go through threads and reply to everyone with "you good" or "you bad".

    AND LASTLY if there is a concerted astroturfing effort in effect, then we should be able to see it better because, more productive discussions should get these factions to change their behavior , no?


    Apologies for the length, please reply (bring critiques)
    Well said.

    I don't want to/can't/won't critique this post because it's sensibly made and inspires solidarity.

    The biggest crime committed on this forum isn't right or left wing flag waving. We all have legitimate good hearted concerns for the political progress of the western world.

    It's nonsensical arguments and egotistic back slapping that grind my gears.

    Without seeming to be 'bullying' or anything, I particularly agree with the comment about a729.

    There's only so much Daily Mail sourcing a sane man can handle.
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    Well said.

    I don't want to/can't/won't critique this post because it's sensibly made and inspires solidarity.

    The biggest crime committed on this forum isn't right or left wing flag waving. We all have legitimate good hearted concerns for the political progress of the western world.

    It's nonsensical arguments and egotistic back slapping that grind my gears.

    Without seeming to be 'bullying' or anything, I particularly agree with the comment about a729.

    There's only so much Daily Mail sourcing a sane man can handle.
    While I might get the impression from reading this with my previous post that we can both see the same things and agree on what we see, do you not see that solidarity become more like backslapping with less meaning the less we ask each other what we mean?

    For example, the phrase "flag waving" invoke in my mind the behaviour that comes with "nonsensical arguments". By asking each other more questions about what we mean or using a different approach, I get a broader understanding of what you're thinking, a prerequisite, I think, for representing your wishes in any democratic effort.

    So I guess critique also meant asking more questions and taking different approaches.

    And I wasn't intending to single anyone out to steal their social capital, but wanted to use them as examples (since they post a lot) that others might be able to use as reference, I didn't mention this because I wanted to keep the word count down.
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    I suppose I mean to say that if we mean to change the quality of discussion here, lets start , now.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Don't underestimate the political importance of students. We are a huge potential force for change in society. That's why the authorities try to come down on us so harshly when we protest, as in the student protests against tuition fees.
    Yep, that's totally why the police clamped down on the protest. Storming Tory HQ and throwing heavy missiles off of the roof, along with numerous other acts of unprovoked violence, had nothing at all to do with that?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    So much so, that we must ask the question - are these organisations seeking to control debate on TSR? Is TSR willing to allow this to continue? Is it what we really want?
    So, to prevent the right from apparently controlling debate, you yourself want the left to shut them out and themselves control the debate on TSR? You surely must see the hypocrisy in your post?
    Do I really need to do the whole 'the fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists' quote thing?
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Yep, that's totally why the police clamped down on the protest. Storming Tory HQ and throwing heavy missiles off of the roof, along with numerous other acts of unprovoked violence, had nothing at all to do with that?
    200-300 people in a crowd of tens of thousands decide to act like idiots. Not representative of the truth.




    What I love about these right wing types is that they are ignorant of the fact that most of the problems are actually caused by right wing policies.

    And they go 'Socialism doesn't work, look at the USSR; It must be a socialist country because it has socialist in it's name' you reply back that the peoples democratic republic of North Korea therefore must be proof that democracy doesn't work either...

    But yeah, posters like A279 I don't mind. He's just a kid learning about the world. (i hope he is anyway)

    I do wish people would stop posting Daily Fail articles though. There's plenty of right wing media out there that's decent - please post that stuff instead. I know too much about Kim Kardashian and the different hairstyles of Sarah Harding. I don't even know who these people are!
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    (Original post by Izzyeviel)
    200-300 people in a crowd of tens of thousands decide to act like idiots. Not representative of the truth.
    It was quite a lot more than just a couple of hundred, and irregardless the scale of the destruction this minority caused more than warranted a police crackdown.
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    (Original post by Redolent)
    At the risk of showing some sort of bias, I do think most of TSR's UK Politics morons are right-wing. There's a group of 10+ of them who make no attempt to argue whatsoever and instead bleat the same old tired soundbites, many of which have been mentioned in this thread ("benefit scroungers", "we should instantly dismantle the NHS/BBC", "I've licked Nigel Farage's backside and I know it tastes of rainbows" and so on), and I don't think they make any attempt at independent critical thought. They will predictably assume any position in a political debate that they perceive to be the most right-wing, almost as if they are competing to see who is the most committed to blindly following broadly right-wing ideology. More stupidly still, they will blame absolutely anything they can on their chosen target group, using the terms interchangeably: It's those stupid liberals. It's those stupid socialists. It's those stupid loony lefties.

    There's no point even trying to debate with them, they're about close-minded as they come. Lately I've stopped taking them seriously, and the UK Politics forum in general, because frankly a lot of the debates here are a complete farce. Why allow yourself to be dismayed by the rants of a permanently angry group of people who project all their personal problems onto their political opponents? I don't think it is part of any organised campaign, I just think some people have absolutely nothing going on in their lives so they just come here to harp on about those damn lefties instead.
    Why should the left be taken seriously and indeed censor the opposition when their track record is littered with disaster? From everything to the welfare state (which is way out of control), to immigration (which even New Labour now admit was a mistake) to free speech (i.e illiberal Twitter and Facebook 'crimes') the left have consistently got it hopelessly wrong, despite being on the side of 'humanity'.

    When I come across moany left-wing threads like this it makes me think it's purely a case of sour grapes. Perhaps we're seeing more right-wing threads in the politics section because the population in general realise that we need a right-wing solution to help clear up Labour's mess? UKIP's recent electoral success is a reflection of this, and their meteroic rise is bound to have an impact on political discourse in general.

    I honestly don't know what the left have to offer other than more of the same: more taxes, more welfare, more state intervention, more of the EU and more immigration, if this is the case you cannot blame people for seeking ideological alternatives. "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
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    Hold up, you think there is some kind of conspiracy where right-wing pressure groups are infiltrating The Student Room?

    Let me just get my tin foil hat...
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Don't underestimate the political importance of students. We are a huge potential force for change in society. That's why the authorities try to come down on us so harshly when we protest
    At the moment under-25s fail to represent themselves at the ballot box- a real shame
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    No one can do anything regarding EU migration because it is a fundamental principle of the EU, FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT laid out in the Treaty of Rome 1957

    The European Union is here to stay and I wish people accept this fact not spouting their rhetoric of leaving
    Hopefully the people of Europe will wise up before it's too late and terminate the EU like the failed League of Nations did
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    There is one user in this forum that springs to mind, I have tried to debate him and others but they stick to the same line over and over again saying I am in the wrong. EXCUSE ME, I speak sense and I know my stuff
    Further on Kibalchich's post:

    Not on the EU either!
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The Grexit was just used by the Coalition as an excuse. Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg share a right wing agenda with Osborne and Cameron, so they were just using the alleged threat of default or credit downgrading as PR for their actions. The fact that we have actually been downgraded, without (so far anyway) any noticeable effect, along with a lot of other leading economies, strongly suggests it was always just hype.

    That's not to say that the size of the debt isn't becoming alarmingly large, but it would be much more useful to close all the tax havens and recover the large amounts of corporation tax that used to be paid and are now not - this would plug far more of the deficit than attacking the disabled or the working poor would.
    You have actually made a reasoned point that I agree with- you have acknowledged the deficit unlike the people who deny the deficit needs tackling at all!

    Sadly I don't think the UK has had a government that acts in the best interest of the country for many years.
    Most seem to have vested interests
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    This forum is covered in left wing liberals. It's about time that the right are getting their points across more

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Right now we have massive government attacks on the poor and the Tories are using the police as a tool to brutally suppress protest. A couple of years ago they used it against students in London on a massive scale and against the very popular UK Uncut tax protests - the cases arising from that are still going on. Few causes have as much popular support as the campaign to end massive tax avoidance by corporations, yet despite Coalition blather on the subject, little is being truly done to clamp down on it. Today we have the news that directors of more than 175,000 UK companies are based in tax havens. Enough money is kept in tax havens to provide for the entire government spending of the United States and Japan for a year!

    TSR political threads are not reflecting this reality. Instead, we have a regular blizzard of Daily Mail-influenced thread titles, attacking so-called 'scroungers', trying to paint the poor as undeserving, attacking immigrants and all the rest of the usual far-right message that the poor and immigrants are to blame for our woes, the biggest lie of many lies that the Tories are currently telling.

    This is now such a regular pattern that the UK politics forum appears to be almost dead in the water - most posters are bogged down arguing with people who appear to be wholly committed to the EDL/BNP/Ukip lines. So much so, that we must ask the question - are these organisations seeking to control debate on TSR? Is TSR willing to allow this to continue? Is it what we really want?
    I don't understand the basis of your complaint. Why would you want to run a country with a "poor me" or "poor he" approach. There are plenty of people on benefits who could just go get jobs. We are going down the tubes financially and continually overspending our way into bigger and bigger debt. Do you think that giving more benefits will solve this?

    Now I know what the counter argument will be, what about the rich who don't pay tax? Its a ridiculous argument. These "rich" are usually value producers not drains on the state coffers. Yes I agree that a wealthy person should not take liberties with his tax. He should pay at least 30%. But to use the one as a justification for the other is ludicrous. Its like the wife who tells her husband; but we spend £500 on city break so surely its OK now to go and spend another £500 on a London helicopter tour.


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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    You do not understand the non-dom problem and the extent to which it was created by HMRC.

    Non-doms are people who ARE resident in the UK but ARE NOT domiciled in the UK.

    They pay UK income tax and capital gains tax on their UK income and capital gains but only pay IT and CGT on their overseas income and gains if they are remitted to the UK.

    Inheritance Tax is only paid on the worldwide assets of those dying with a UK domicile. Otherwise it is only paid on UK assets. This is the origin of the non-dom problem. It is perfectly possibly to be domiciled in a country one has never visited and one's domicile of origin is fixed at birth although it can be superseded by a domicile of choice or dependence. For more than 100 years HMRC has been very reluctant to accept that someone has lost their UK domicile of origin and gained a domicile of choice elsewhere and the law is very restrictive. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The same rules mean that it is very difficult for someone who starts out as non-domiciled to acquire a UK domicile of choice. These rules favoured the HMRC for many years as we tended to export wealthy and import poor immigrants. The rules now significantly work against the UK.
    I do of course realise that it is the tax laws that have created this situation, that doesn't take away the reality that many of the big newspaper groups that bleat constantly about tax rates have a huge vested interest and not only that, their owners are not even being taxed here. They are simply using their media ownership to help maintain their tax positions. The large newspaper groups like DMGT (the Mail) and Murdoch's interests in the UK should be broken up and laws passed to prevent foreign ownership of more than a certain percentage of our media.

    The recent settlement with non doms was part of the process of ensuring that the wealthiest pay as little tax as possible, an interest eagerly served by successive governments, not part of trying to genuinely fix the system. Note that of course the US runs the opposite system and regards all foreign earnings of corporations owned in the US as taxable in the US.
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    This forum is covered in left wing liberals. It's about time that the right are getting their points across more

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    Well said. The liberal-left detest the British because of our colonial heritage, and because we're 'privileged' (i.e we've worked hard and invested in infrastructure, something any nation can do :confused:), they're not in a position to dictate where we should be heading as a country because they don't have our best interests at heart.
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    It's beginning to be clear that there is a growing consensus on the forum that quoting Daily Mail articles should not be permitted. This is also the case in Wikipedia, where the Mail is not generally accepted as a valid source to support articles unless it can be shown to be correct by the use of other sources.
 
 
 
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