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Isn't it about time that attitudes changed towards rape? Watch

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    (Original post by Cable)
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    The other issue with the laws as they stand is that women cannot be convicted of raping other women - they can only sexually assault them, which is equally bizarre. It is based on the long outdated idea from pre-victorian times that women are not sexual beings and sex can only be performed if some kind of penetration takes place. Surely nowadays we know better.

    I agree with you on principle but it would be extremely difficult to convict a woman of raping a man. When men are convicted of raping women it is often because of evidence of trauma to the affected area. Even with women this is not always present as they too can unintentionally become aroused. Seeing as a man sort of has to unintentionally become aroused to be raped in the way you're suggesting, this kind of evidence would be lacking. So I think the laws should be changed, yes, but I think sadly you would see a very low conviction rate.
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    (Original post by Theflyingbarney)
    To be fair, as I've laid out above, when a person is accused of aiding/abetting, etc, an offence, they are charged with the full offence, so technically women can be guilty of 'rape' - but only where there's a man that's actually committed the full offence, and not by having forced sex with someone themselves.
    Yes, but a woman cannot be a principal offender in rape, which is primarily what this guy is trying to say is the case, they can only be an accomplice. His initial statement was "women can rape" - in the eyes of the law, no they cannot.
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    (Original post by Jessica_T)
    Yes, but a woman cannot be a principal offender in rape, which is primarily what this guy is trying to say is the case, they can only be an accomplice. His initial statement was "women can rape" - in the eyes of the law, no they cannot.
    Well you have a poor understanding of law then, if you're convicted of rape then in the eyes of the law you are a rapist therefore under the law women can rape


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    (Original post by LewisG123)
    Well you have a poor understanding of law then, if you're convicted of rape then in the eyes of the law you are a rapist therefore under the law women can rape


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    Not as principal offenders, only accomplices.

    Also, I have a poor understanding of the law? Says the guy citing news articles as legal authority.
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    (Original post by LewisG123)
    Well you have a poor understanding of law then, if you're convicted of rape then in the eyes of the law you are a rapist therefore under the law women can rape


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    If you kidnapped someone and dragged them back to your house so that your mate could shoot them, you would be found guilty of murder even though, technically, you have not murdered anyone. It's the same with rape. The definition of rape has been shown many times in this thread and means that a woman cannot commit rape. If you say they can then what definition of rape are you using? Can you link to any sources showing that definition to be an official one?
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    What a stupid thread. Women can't rape men. Get over yourselves.
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    (Original post by GeneralOJB)
    What a stupid thread. Women can't rape men. Get over yourselves.
    Why not?

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    (Original post by mmmpie)
    Why not?

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    1) Men are stronger than women.
    2) Men always consent to sex.
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    (Original post by GeneralOJB)
    1) Men are stronger than women.
    2) Men always consent to sex.
    Can't tell if serious...

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    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    There is a disturbing attitude among some people that rape is a male problem and that men need to be told not to rape. This is clearly offensive to men but also a counterproductive approach to the problem of how stop rape.

    Men are not rapists. Rapists are rapists. If you want to stop rape then you need to speak out to people who are rapists rather than men in general.

    Rape is treated by some people to be similar to crimes such as stealing, cheating and lying. Everybody does these things a bit. Everybody will steal if they think they can get away with it and still feel okay about themselves for doing it. The solution society uses to stop such menial criminal behavior is punishment and humiliation. And these solutions work well to stop crimes everybody commits.

    The problem is that rape is not a crime everybody will commit. The typical approach rape is to treat it like cheating, lying or stealing. Assume that everybody will do it under the right circumstances i.e. assume all men are potential rapists. Prevent it using humiliation and punishment i.e. telling people how terrible it is to rape and how everybody will despise them and put them in prison.

    We need to stop thinking of men as potential rapists and instead try to target rapists in an effort to stop victims of rape ever occurring. The line "tell men to not rape" is not only incredibly offensive but also remarkably stupid.
    I generally agree. +1.
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    (Original post by aspirinpharmacist)
    It's considered a male thing because it's women who tend to report it (because society wouldn't believe men), as there's the perception that "How could a little woman overpower a man"? I mean, from one of the few episodes of Desperate Housewives I've watched, if you've got the right drugs you can, although god knows why anyone would, but why would anyone rape, ever? Couldn't a woman also sexually assault another woman? But yes, the law should be changed because women could theoretically rape men, although the likelihood of her being physically strong enough to force them is lower. On another note, societies views towards women domestically abusing men needs to change as well, many men wouldn't hit a woman because that's how they were brought up. In films, if a male character slaps a female, he's a b******, if a female character slaps a male one, well, he probably deserves it, doesn't he? Um, no, actually, nobody should be hitting anyone. The whole "You go girl!" mentality around girls hitting guys being ok is just ridiculous. And yet it's all over the media so girls (including myself) grow up with this belief in the back of our heads that it's alright when it's really not. I could give a dozen examples off the top of my head, half of them from things being shown to children.

    I don't want to think about this anymore, I'm going to bed.
    Nice post. :yy:
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    (Original post by Eljamaispa)
    Read it carefully. The law was actually changed partly so it can refer to anyone with a penis. That could be a transsexual woman (prior or not decided to have surgery) or someone who is intersex.
    No offence but this part of your post is so bad, I won't waste too much time on it.

    I'd like to know if use of a strap on penis makes it rape. Blurry line there...
    I think it is classed as some form of sexual assault, rather than rape.



    It's :femi:nism. Campaigning for men's rights and issues falls under egalitarianism and MRA. Not feminism. Which makes sense when you consider the literal meaning of a feminist. Of course, feminists do care but not because they are feminist, because they would be egalitarian (where you are simultaneously a feminist and a masculinist). Does that make sense, now?
    I won't go off topic too much by concentrating on my issue with feminism. But even if we take your word on what feminism is (you're saying being a feminist don't conflict with caring for men's rights), surely feminism wants to get women to be equal with men, right? Hence why you rightly protested for the right to vote etc. But why aren't feminists also protesting for women's right to be convicted as rapists? Or do feminists only want equality where it benefits women? Rather than taking all the good, bad and ugly that comes with true equality? Hence why feminists love to moan about the lack of women in top jobs and the top end of politics for example. But it comes to the lack of female rapists, they generally aren't interested. What a joke.

    Yes I think the law should change. Women can rape men if we're using the common sense definition of forced sexual intercourse. I suppose the law is being cautious about where to draw the line between sexual assault and rape. But yeah, conviction shouldn't be restricted to only those with a penis to utilise.




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    Cool. The other benefit of getting women to be convicted as rapists is that it can help to properly condemn women committing rape and hence potentially reduce rape occurrences. Also with more female rapists being properly condemned, it can potentially help male victims of rape (by women) come out and report being raped.
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    (Original post by LewisG123)
    So hilarious that the only point I've made I've proven is correct: women can be convicted of rape


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    Can't remember what I originally said and I can't be bothered to check. But if a women doesn't have a penis she cannot 'rape' according to UK law's definition because it needs a PENIS involved. If she can be convicted of rape for other reasons (assist, has a penis/is trans-women etc), then fair enough.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    No offence but this part of your post is so bad, I won't waste too much time on it.
    I see nothing wrong with it. Explain.


    I won't go off topic too much by concentrating on my issue with feminism. But even if we take your word on what feminism is (you're saying being a feminist don't conflict with caring for men's rights), surely feminism wants to get women to be equal with men, right? Hence why you rightly protested for the right to vote etc. But why aren't feminists also protesting for women's right to be convicted as rapists? Or do feminists only want equality where it benefits women? Rather than taking all the good, bad and ugly that comes with true equality? Hence why feminists love to moan about the lack of women in top jobs and the top end of politics for example. But it comes to the lack of female rapists, they generally aren't interested. What a joke.
    Not a hugely active feminist (I identify as one because I believe women are still not equal in society in some areas) so I can't provide you insight into the whole community at all. But I guess it may undermine their fight to get male on female rape taken more seriously if they campaign for women being able to be called rapists at the same time. One step at a time and all that. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
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    (Original post by Shockolate)
    I don't think they are encouraging anyone to report drunken consensual sex as rape, just saying that if a person is passed out/on the verge of passing out/so drunk they don't know what's going on and another person decides to do something to them, that people should recognise that this is a sexual assault. They aren't saying that if a couple happily participate in drunken sex together, that the man is somehow a rapist.
    Well, that wasn't what I heard/read from many feminists. Rather it was different. Anything to get those "evil men" into jail for doing nothing wrong. And they seemed to encourage women not to take precautions of not drinking too much.

    I think there needs to be a global change to where no one thinks that rape/sexual assault is acceptable or excusable and where the responsibility is fully with the perpetrator. A society in which the idea that it's acceptable to touch another's body without consent is challenged, and laws and attitudes that support and protect victims. This is where your concern should lie - the fact that this behaviour is allowed to continue in the world.
    But how is the behaviour "allowed to continue"? This world is full of utter t**ts and idiots who don't want to take a few precautions where possible. It is inevitable that crime and "evil" will exist. The best we can do is condemn rape and other sexual assault (regardless of gender) and when enough evidence has been supplied, convict the rapists and those who committed sexual assault.

    My concern is that the lack of proper condemnation for female rapists allows more women to think they can get away with committing rape. Also, the lack of proper condemnation for female rapists may continue to make male victims of rape (by women) scared to come out and report being raped.
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    (Original post by Eljamaispa)
    I see nothing wrong with it. Explain.
    It didn't really have anything to do with the main points of my OP. It seemed pointless.

    I don't care about transsexuals or whatever.

    The fact is that "normal" women with vaginas by law can't be convicted of rape since the law says they can't commit it.

    That needs to change.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    It didn't really have anything to do with the main points of my OP. It seemed pointless.

    I don't care about transsexuals or whatever.

    The fact is that "normal" women with vaginas by law can't be convicted of rape since the law says they can't commit it.

    That needs to change.
    No, I was correcting you. Transsexuals are relevant. I read somewhere they changed the law partly because of transsexuals. But whatever.


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    (Original post by abc:))
    The other issue with the laws as they stand is that women cannot be convicted of raping other women - they can only sexually assault them, which is equally bizarre. It is based on the long outdated idea from pre-victorian times that women are not sexual beings and sex can only be performed if some kind of penetration takes place. Surely nowadays we know better.

    I agree with you on principle but it would be extremely difficult to convict a woman of raping a man. When men are convicted of raping women it is often because of evidence of trauma to the affected area. Even with women this is not always present as they too can unintentionally become aroused. Seeing as a man sort of has to unintentionally become aroused to be raped in the way you're suggesting, this kind of evidence would be lacking. So I think the laws should be changed, yes, but I think sadly you would see a very low conviction rate.
    OK.

    But the thing is that rape committed by women is already punished but just classed under "sexual assault" instead of rape. And that needs to change.

    Yeah, there will be a low conviction rate. But that's the way things are unfortunately. However, changing the law for women to be able to commit rape may be a step in the right direction to tackle rape and reduce it.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    Well, that wasn't what I heard/read from many feminists. Rather it was different. Anything to get those "evil men" into jail for doing nothing wrong. And they seemed to encourage women not to take precautions of not drinking too much.


    But how is the behaviour "allowed to continue"? This world is full of utter t**ts and idiots who don't want to take a few precautions where possible. It is inevitable that crime and "evil" will exist. The best we can do is condemn rape and other sexual assault (regardless of gender) and when enough evidence has been supplied, convict the rapists and those who committed sexual assault.

    My concern is that the lack of proper condemnation for female rapists allows more women to think they can get away with committing rape. Also, the lack of proper condemnation for female rapists may continue to make male victims of rape (by women) scared to come out and report being raped.
    Because of the 'rape culture' there is in the world. Of course, rape/sexual assault is never going to be eradicated, but if societal understanding, attitudes and laws changed then people would feel more safe to report it, there would be more successful convictions, and in the future less people will chose to rape/sexually assault as they will know they are unlikely to get away with it. Perpetrators know the odds are stacked in their favour, and that people won't take the victim seriously/will try and discredit the victim, and they also live in a society where people always try to shift the focus away from the behaviour of the perpetrator onto that of the victim - and it's this culture that needs to be challenged.

    From what I have seen, the problem with female perpetrators of men, isn't that they aren't always given the title of 'rapist', as they are still condemned as seriously sexually assaulting someone, and it is still recognised that the man has not consented to sex. I also don't think that just because women can't be given the title rapist, that it's going to encourage more women to violate men.

    I do think there is a huge problem in that a lot of people don't seem to realise that men can be violated by women - for example, many people think that guys are always up for sex, that any man would be grateful for a female to touch them, that if a man got an erection then he must have been enjoying it, and also the idea that a man is weak if he can't stop a woman. I think this is the main problem for male victims of females when it comes to getting justice.

    There is also a huge problem in that it is seen as normal for men to sexually assault women, and that it's assumed that men are allowed access to a woman's body, and that it is seen as the victim having made a wrong choice rather than realising that it is the perpetrator who has made the decision to rape/sexually assault. Which is the main problem for female victims of males when it comes to getting justice.

    So yes, it is about time attitudes towards rape changed, but the problem isn't with the title/technical definition of rape, the problem is with the action of violating someone and societal attitudes towards perpetrators/victims.




    Also, what you said at the top about what you have heard from feminists...the people who have been claiming that if a drunken couple happily chooses to have sex, that the man is somehow evil or a rapist, are NOT feminists. Just people who have gotten seriously mixed up or have their own personal issues around men and are tarring all men with the same brush. If you read some stuff from actual feminists, they are not sending this message at all.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    OK.

    But the thing is that rape committed by women is already punished but just classed under "sexual assault" instead of rape. And that needs to change.

    Yeah, there will be a low conviction rate. But that's the way things are unfortunately. However, changing the law for women to be able to commit rape may be a step in the right direction to tackle rape and reduce it.
    As just said in my other post, it is still recognised that the man has not consented to sex, and this sexual assault on a man is still considered akin to rape.
    If you had started a thread saying that if there was more awareness that males can be victims of sexual assault, that it would help male victims to come forward and help to reduce it happening in the future, I would have wholeheartedly agreed, but the problem with people's attitudes isn't with the definition of the word rape.
 
 
 
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