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A ban on female members at Muirfield Golf Club in 2013? Why!?! watch

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    (Original post by wtfCharlie)
    In your opinion.

    The effects of sexism also still linger today, in the same way as racism. Equal opportunities do not exist for both genders or races. Boys and girls do NOT end up where they deserve to be regardless of gender - just look at the gender balance in politics and business. Some ethnicities have a worse starting point? So do some genders - female. The cycle continues when little girls fail to see women in positive and strong roles because sexism stops them from getting there.
    If girls struggle because they have fewer role models, then so do non-whites (in this country), so any disadvantage caused by gender also applies to race. However, due to people's tendencies to be attracted to their own ethnicity, racial disadvantages flow through generations whilst the laws of biology mean whether you are a boy or a girl, you are not disadvantaged by your parents' genders, because you must have one of each.

    And I said we can fix the system so there are equal opportunities, not that it is perfect right now.
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    (Original post by pane123)
    So if I want to pay to join a club where I can play a sport in the company of my male friends and relax afterwards in the company of my male friends, I'm sexist?

    Wanting time away from women and wanting to be separate from black people, for example, are two very different things.
    Why would you find it so difficult to play golf and relax afterwards with your group of only male friends (nothing wrong with that) where there are women present? You wouldn't have to interact with them if you didn't want to. Why would you find the very presence of women who you don't know so detrimental to the experience?

    (Original post by Hopple)
    Women could play in/at mixed gender clubs, no reason to perpetuate what you think is wrong but in the other direction.

    It's pretty obvious that racial discrimination has had worse effects than sexual discrimination, no? A boy and a girl will each have a parent of each gender, so any sexual disadvantage one faces will be due to events after their birth. Compare a white child and a black child, generally will have parents of the same skin colour, and hence any racial disadvantage one faces will not only be due to events after their birth, but will also be due to accumulated discrimination over the previous generations.
    Golf clubs historically and probably originally were predominantly men only; mixed gender is a more recent thing.

    I don't understand your point about 'after birth'; gender is dictated by genetics (before birth) as is race. Women used to face similar treatment as 'inferior', like some ethnic groups. Remember that women had to fight to be able to vote, to choose to work without judgement and prejudice, to have equal pay, to be treated as an individual and not just someone's wife.

    Undoubtedly racism is and was disgraceful but is (rightly) regarded as extremely non-PC (and illegal) now. The same cannot be said of sexism; casual sexist 'banter' e.g. kitchen and sandwich jokes go on, while, for example, slang names for takeaways and corner shops etc. have been stamped out of most people's vocabularies. Women are also still under-represented in many areas and issues of pay equality remain.

    You say in a previous post that sexism is 'reset' with each generation. I agree that things are improving, but how is this not the case for racism too? If anything progress has increased more rapidly for ethnic majorities, especially in recent years.
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    (Original post by wtfCharlie)
    It's a fair point but those were started because a lot of women feel genuinely uncomfortable at mixed gyms - guys take the opportunity to make comments or come onto them. I've always thought this is somewhat unfair - maybe men don't want to be looked at by women either if self-conscious? But overall, society is way more critical of women's bodies than men's so it kind of makes sense. That ban is about feeling comfortable and not harassed, the golf one is about elitism and exclusivity. Both discriminatory, but some context should be considered.
    I'd disagree because who am I to judge why men would want to join a men's only club or why a woman would want to join a woman's only gym? Harassment is not limited to just 1 sex. Maybe it is due to elitism or another crappy reason in some cases but there are far more clubs that allow both men and women as well as women's only clubs which overall can accommodate everyone, would women only golf clubs also be banned?
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    (Original post by manchesterunited15)
    Car insurance is based on how likely you are to have an accident, men are more likely to have an accident, so doesn't it follow that insurance should be cheaper for women? Just like it's more expensive for 17 year olds...
    Are black people more likely to have an accident than white people? Are ginger haired people less likely to have an accident than brown haired people? Where does it stop?

    Insurance based on age, and in turn the number of years you have been driving for, I can understand. But two people of the same age with the same driving history, but different genders? Not so much.
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    (Original post by akj08)
    Golf clubs historically and probably originally were predominantly men only; mixed gender is a more recent thing.
    So if male only is bad, then setting up female only is just as bad, no?

    I don't understand your point about 'after birth'; gender is dictated by genetics (before birth) as is race. Women used to face similar treatment as 'inferior', like some ethnic groups. Remember that women had to fight to be able to vote, to choose to work without judgement and prejudice, to have equal pay, to be treated as an individual and not just someone's wife.

    Undoubtedly racism is and was disgraceful but is (rightly) regarded as extremely non-PC (and illegal) now. The same cannot be said of sexism; casual sexist 'banter' e.g. kitchen and sandwich jokes go on, while, for example, slang names for takeaways and corner shops etc. have been stamped out of most people's vocabularies. Women are also still under-represented in many areas and issues of pay equality remain.
    My point is, have you been hurt by women not being able to work freely 100 years ago any more than a guy your age has? Or even if it went right up to before you were born? Then any disadvantage you have will be from birth onwards, what happened before (say, to your mother in comparison to your father) has hurt you no more than it has hurt your brother (say you were twins). However, as you can see, given that people tend to have children with people of the same race, disadvantages due to race accumulate over generations.
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    (Original post by Idle)
    I'd disagree because who am I to judge why men would want to join a men's only club or why a woman would want to join a woman's only gym? Harassment is not limited to just 1 sex. Maybe it is due to elitism or another crappy reason in some cases but there are far more clubs that allow both men and women as well as women's only clubs which overall can accommodate everyone, would women only golf clubs also be banned?
    True, but it's usually male on female. It does happen the other way, but like racism, one happens more. Probably partly cos media is quite focused on women and their sexuality.
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    (Original post by wtfCharlie)
    True, but it's usually male on female. It does happen the other way, but like racism, one happens more. Probably partly cos media is quite focused on women and their sexuality.
    I think it happens far more to men than is reported. My dad was abused by my mother verbally and sometimes physically (he was stronger but would never hit back) and those who knew just seemed to think it was acceptable, can you imagine if it was the other way around? Anyway this is getting slightly off the topic now so I will stop here
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    (Original post by Idle)
    I think it happens far more to men than is reported. My dad was abused by my mother verbally and sometimes physically (he was stronger but would never hit back) and those who knew just seemed to think it was acceptable, can you imagine if it was the other way around? Anyway this is getting slightly off the topic now so I will stop here
    No, I agree that there's a lot that goes unreported because of the idea that men should be 'strong' etc - sexism hurts guys too, when they're told that 'women can't abuse you!' etc

    Just pointing out the difference in intention between gyms and the club.
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    I know that they are not breaking the law, as the law stands, but should the law be changed? I have never been one to put laws everywhere, but I do find the "No woman member rule" strange, and so it seems does the majority of professional male golf players as well.
    If it is okay to have this rule for one demographic then it is okay for other demographics. Would there be more criticism if there were white only private institutions than women only? If so, why?
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    (Original post by wtfCharlie)
    If you care a lot about women's rights, you kinda are a feminist heh.

    No, the problem doesn't seem massive, but I the point is that in 2013, it is outdated and sexist. Thankfully, the UK has come a long way and therefore our problems are 'smaller' than in other countries.
    I'm against a lot of the techniques feminists use to activate and I care a lot about male rights too.


    It is outdated and sexist, I agree, but like other users have pointed out, there are ladies gyms, etc., which also follow the same procedure. There has to be give and take within society, and women simply can't do all the taking. I doubt men are up in arms about not being able to attend women-only gyms, so women should treat Muirfield Golf Club with the same attitude.

    I for one would love to go to a Silver Screen, and see a movie with a group of 50+ people, because there have been many occasions where the film has been disrupted by a bunch of annoying teenagers, but I shan't cry in outrage, claiming ageism.
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    (Original post by akj08)
    Why would you find it so difficult to play golf and relax afterwards with your group of only male friends (nothing wrong with that) where there are women present? You wouldn't have to interact with them if you didn't want to. Why would you find the very presence of women who you don't know so detrimental to the experience?
    My reasons are irrelevant; I want a club that only allows male members and this private organisation offers that.
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    (Original post by pane123)
    My reasons are irrelevant; I want a club that only allows male members and this private organisation offers that.
    Would you agree with a private club that would not let black people join? or gay people? or Asian people?
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    If it is okay to have this rule for one demographic then it is okay for other demographics. Would there be more criticism if there were white only private institutions than women only? If so, why?
    Well this is the point, there really should not be any bans like this in this day and age. If we go with the logic of some people here, that it is a private club and we should not get involved, then I assume that if a golf club opens, but bans gay people, or bans Asian people, or even bans black people, then I assume by their logic, this should be allowed? After all, it is a private club.
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    Would you agree with a private club that would not let black people join? or gay people? or Asian people?
    No, I have already addressed this issue and really hoped nobody would compare banning women to banning a certain race.
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    (Original post by pane123)
    No, I have already addressed this issue and really hoped nobody would compare banning women to banning a certain race.
    So sexism is not as bad as racism? It is both discriminatory behaviour. You can't have it both ways.
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    Private club = their rules.

    Got a problem? Start your own club.
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    So sexism is not as bad as racism? It is both discriminatory behaviour. You can't have it both ways.
    Let's have a reality check here - this is a golf club. We aren't talking about job opportunities or levels of pay.

    Men and women are different, white people and black people are not. If men want to pay for a club where they can socialise exclusively with other men, then I think they should be afforded that luxury.

    We are talking about one golf club; I doubt this one club is going to send equal rights back 100 years. Its members will change the rules if they want to, but until then I'm of the opinion that we should let them get on with it.
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    (Original post by pane123)
    Let's have a reality check here - this is a golf club. We aren't talking about job opportunities or levels of pay.

    Men and women are different, white people and black people are not. If men want to pay for a club where they can socialise exclusively with other men, then I think they should be afforded that luxury.

    We are talking about one golf club; I doubt this one club is going to send equal rights back 100 years. Its members will change the rules if they want to, but until then I'm of the opinion that we should let them get on with it.
    Where men want to relax with other men, we call them gay bars, and even then women are not exempt.

    At the end of the day, you can't say that you would not agree with a club barring black members, but then say you have no issue with a club barring female members. It is hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by Ultimate1)
    Private club = their rules.

    Got a problem? Start your own club.
    So you have no issue with a legal Klu Klux Klan style club in the UK then? It would be a private club after all.....
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    Where men want to relax with other men, we call them gay bars, and even then women are not exempt.

    At the end of the day, you can't say that you would not agree with a club barring black members, but then say you have no issue with a club barring female members. It is hypocrisy.
    You have stepped into the realm of the ridiculous with your comment on gay bars.

    If you cannot separate sex and race then I feel this debate has run its course.
 
 
 
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