Muslim students at Queen Mary calling for a ‘right to pray’ Watch

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(Original post by Iqbal007)
They already do..................how else do they pay for the uni bar, the gym facilities, the sport facilities, etc or other non-educational things which go towards providing for students :rolleyes:
Haha. You’re saying praying is a break from stress? Most Muslims see it as work and are just too afraid to admit it. They just wanna get it over and done with to avoid hellfire. There is no consensus that praying constitutes the well being of a person, in the same way something like exercising does.
Even if it is just either the hall or the drama theatre, it’s still asking for a lot. Using either one of both these spacious location EVERY FRIDAY, EVERY WEEK, FOREVER especially when they were created with a DIFFERENT PURPOSE in mind seems unreasonable. QM is not obliged to overlook this and give into the Isoc’s demand.
Using the room for prayer is NOT a necessity because Muslims can CHOOSE between attending their lecture and attending the mosque. Paying students can’t demand universities to meet their non-educational demands that have nothing to do with their well-being. Please explain to me how praying leads to your well being? Please don’t say it’s because it makes students happy, because then students can just start demanding uni’s to provide arcades, clubs and cinemas because it would make them happy.
It’s up to public institutions to decide whether they provide prayer facilities or not, if not, you have to accept that. You go to the mosque to pray or you pray at home. QM already has a prayer room, use that in turns, or pray outside if you’re all that dedicated to Allah.
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by Priya_Biju)
Wow Are you for real? That's where the problem lie, people just 'expect a lot'. For your information, the money you are paying is to cater for your educational needs. You don't own the university.
'a large chunk of money comes from their tuition fees' And? What do you want a medal? Sorry, I am not trying to be rude and I respect Muslim a lot as I have muslim friends but what I dont agree with are the people who are saying things like this depite their religion. You cant demand anything from anyone, would you go and demand the mosque to change their timings. If they said no, would you protest. If so why dont you guys go to the mosque and ask them if facilities can be provided to cater for your religious needs.

Because if one society demands a bigger room and sooner or later wouldnt other societies demand for a Bigger spaCe too. I mean if the university lets one society then surely it will be partiality to say no to another. Then in about few years time, eductation will be the secondary aspect of QM.
People have this idea that tuition fees only pay for the education part..........it actually doesn't, it pays for a lot more, the experience of university. The university is there to provide more than education, to develop the next generation, to look after their well being, etc.

Of course Mosques do friday prayers, every mosque does :rolleyes: the matter is that in reality there is only one mosque nearby, which can't meet the demands of the local people, as its overflowing, so how can they meet the demand of the students. The ISOC has even gone and talked to them and they have been told exactly that, that they can't take so many people.

We aren't demanding...............we are asking for the right to use the octagon hall or the theatre hall, for 1 hour every friday during midday like we had been doing so before this academic year. The ISOC doesn't even have their own exclusive prayer room, its a multi-faith room which has different timings for use by different group, so as it is we actually share our facilities despite the university renegading on a agreement a few years back saying they'll give them their own one. We haven't complained so much about that.............but it all started going wrong when QM security came in during friday prayers and essentially started limiting the space we could use, the girls can't join in on friday prayers in those original rooms as we don't have space and the prayers are obligatory for the guys....so they were ok with us using their room.............and even then it overflowed on to the washing area, the shoe area........now they force the isoc to not use any of the space, force them to have to turn away people for friday prayers.
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Kutta
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Haha. You’re saying praying is a break from stress? Most Muslims see it as work and are just too afraid to admit it. They just wanna get it over and done with to avoid hellfire. There is no consensus that praying constitutes the well being of a person, in the same way something like exercising does.
Even if it is just either the hall or the drama theatre, it’s still asking for a lot. Using either one of both these spacious location EVERY FRIDAY, EVERY WEEK, FOREVER especially when they were created with a DIFFERENT PURPOSE in mind seems unreasonable. QM is not obliged to overlook this and give into the Isoc’s demand.
Using the room for prayer is NOT a necessity because Muslims can CHOOSE between attending their lecture and attending the mosque. Paying students can’t demand universities to meet their non-educational demands that have nothing to do with their well-being. Please explain to me how praying leads to your well being? Please don’t say it’s because it makes students happy, because then students can just start demanding uni’s to provide arcades, clubs and cinemas because it would make them happy.
It’s up to public institutions to decide whether they provide prayer facilities or not, if not, you have to accept that. You go to the mosque to pray or you pray at home. QM already has a prayer room, use that in turns, or pray outside if you’re all that dedicated to Allah.
Since when did you speak for all the Muslims?
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by shouldbestudying)
Haha. You’re saying praying is a break from stress? Most Muslims see it as work and are just too afraid to admit it. They just wanna get it over and done with to avoid hellfire. There is no consensus that praying constitutes the well being of a person, in the same way something like exercising does.
Even if it is just either the hall or the drama theatre, it’s still asking for a lot. Using either one of both these spacious location EVERY FRIDAY, EVERY WEEK, FOREVER especially when they were created with a DIFFERENT PURPOSE in mind seems unreasonable. QM is not obliged to overlook this and give into the Isoc’s demand.
Using the room for prayer is NOT a necessity because Muslims can CHOOSE between attending their lecture and attending the mosque. Paying students can’t demand universities to meet their non-educational demands that have nothing to do with their well-being. Please explain to me how praying leads to your well being? Please don’t say it’s because it makes students happy, because then students can just start demanding uni’s to provide arcades, clubs and cinemas because it would make them happy.
It’s up to public institutions to decide whether they provide prayer facilities or not, if not, you have to accept that. You go to the mosque to pray or you pray at home. QM already has a prayer room, use that in turns, or pray outside if you’re all that dedicated to Allah.
Who are you to say how others feel when they go to pray.........I feel like its a break for me, for me to refreshen myself up and contributes to my well being. Of course it does, especially their mental health.

Necessity differs people to people.........as such it is a necessity for those that are compelled to pray. As can the uni to open up the booking system, its their choice as well.
And its not asking for a lot at all from he uni.......its been done before for years and the uni was completely ok with it.

Thats what we'll do, pray outside...............as they have been doing for the past few weeks. And guess what, its actually working.......we have a right to campaign however we feel, we also as paying students have a right to say that our needs aren't met.

If your so against it, why don't you go and campaign that you don't want it.
Otherwise this debate is pointless as it leads to nowhere, you won't change your mind of your opinion.........but the campaign won't stop till the university reverses its decision.
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Vian
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
hmmm Í might know you, go for it
PM'd

(Original post by felamaslen)
Promoting democracy is equivalent to restricting coercion, since democracy is the only known form of government which is compatible with our freedom.

Forcing somebody to let you use their space to pray is actually encouraging coercion, in fact it is engaging in coercion.
How is a protest a form of "force"? I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with protests in general, but if people are allowed to protest about issues they feel strongly about then it should be a right for all issues, not just non-religious ones.

Also, as I said earlier:
"Whether or not the feelings are valid is another issue entirely"

(Original post by Steevee)
If I was part of the Atheist Soc there I'd book the room for the same time :mmm:
That would be hilarious, no lie. :laugh:

(Original post by Dragonfly07)
If your praying time clashes with mosque hours then why not protest to the mosques rather than to the university.

If so many students need to pray at that particular time then surely the mosque should be happy to change the time?
I've never been to a Friday prayer at a mosque where the rooms weren't completely packed out. Now imagine if thousands of students had to go to those packed mosques. Even if they have multiple prayers to accommodate those who couldn't fit in (which many mosques already do), how many would be required for the extra thousands of students as well as other mosque-goers? And that's still ignoring the fact that lectures would be missed.

Many have said that mosques should just expand, but in addition to any noticeable expansion costing several hundreds of thousands of pounds (which can be gained through donations for over a year), the mosque wouldn't receive the planning permission for a road as busy as Mile End Rd.

(Original post by Dragonfly07)
The university isn't obliged to give you the room whether it's free or not. Sure you're allowed to come to uni for advice on absolutely anything.

Your religion is not special. You should have no special privileges just because you're Muslim. Solve your own problems.
I can't remember is someone has already replied to your post or not, but you're right. The university isn't obliged to provide a room. The protesters are equally not obliged to stop protesting.

The problem is that many posters on here are trivialising the issue by saying our religion doesn't matter. You may very well be right, but that doesn't solve the problem at all, and hence isn't a constructive train of thought. For better or worse, it's an issue that does matter to the protesters, and they have every right to be heard (seeing as protests are legal).

(Original post by Priya_Biju)
Because if one society demands a bigger room and sooner or later wouldnt other societies demand for a Bigger spaCe too. I mean if the university lets one society then surely it will be partiality to say no to another. Then in about few years time, education will be the secondary aspect of QM.
Whether or not other societies will ask for bigger rooms (why would they anyway? Very few, if any, have thousands of members) should have no bearing on whether it's a good idea to allow the Isoc to borrow a supposedly (I've been using that word far too much lately) unused theatre hall for an hour a week.

If other societies feel so strongly about having borrowing a hall (or having a permanent bigger space) that they're prepared to protest for months on end, perhaps it's an issue worth looking into. If it isn't, the uni can just continue refusing. And if these protests really bothers other students so much, they can just protest themselves again the former protesters. Everyone's heard, as everyone has a right to be heard.
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Pastaferian
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(Original post by Vian)
[...] The problem is that many posters on here are trivialising the issue by saying our religion doesn't matter [...]
I'm not sure they're saying that (but maybe I didn't read every post carefully... TL;DR).
However, I think they are questioning that you have a right to have your expectations met in this way.

And assuming that the university were to meet the demand, would that be the end of it? I'm no expert on Islam, but aren't you supposed to pray 5 times a day, every day? Would you need a room set aside for those times as well? The uni may (rightly) be concerned about this request being the thin end of the wedge.

A point of information, relating to the supposed clash between lecture times and the times of prayers in the local mosques. Are the times of prayer mandated, or are they at the discretion of the local imams? And is the amount of time spent on prayers mandated, or is that also discretionary?
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Mimina
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(Original post by atkbm)
Why can't they just use the interfaith prayer rooms? Anyway its in east London which is a hugely muslim populated area, so theres no need for a QMUL mosque...i'm sure theres plenty around!
The Multi Faith Centre (MFC) won't cater for the 500+ students.These MFC facilities aren't even enough for the male students. All we are demanding is the Octagon or the Great Hall so female students can pray as well as the male muslim students. Currently, the male, students take over the women's section in the MFC and no it's not about sexism, it's just that Friday Congregational Prayer is not obligatory on women, however, we'd like to pray our prayers as well.
I find it ridiculous to read things like go to the mosques near by. The mosques around the uni are working over capacity and the QM ISoc has letters from the mosques proving this. Also, as a student who has lectures on the campus, how convenient is it to go pray in another mosque? it takes over an hour just walking back and from it.
The thing that upsets me is the university claiming that the Octagon and the Great Hall are used during Fridays at that slot. Spot checks were carried and those venues were empty!! We prayed and it was all perfectly fine last year, why take the venues away from us?
This is not about Muslim students only! This is about freedom of expression and freedom of practising our faith! There are quite a lot of issues with room booking for all societies, so we are doing this for other societies as well as Isoc! The university needs to respond to students demands. We are backed by the Student Union and that's what the union is about!
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Origami Bullets
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(Original post by Vian)
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
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So, is there any reason why the iSoc cannot charge membership fees and rent out facilities off-campus using those fees, as I outlined here? It's what every other society has to do when the university cannot or will not provide suitable facilities.

And can you shed any light on why, if the rooms are not in use, the university might have chosen to change their position and prevent the iSoc using them? It seems very strange to me that the university would change their position without reason. Have there, for instance, been any disagreements between the university and iSoc in the last academic year?
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felamaslen
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(Original post by Vian)
How is a protest a form of "force"? I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with protests in general, but if people are allowed to protest about issues they feel strongly about then it should be a right for all issues, not just non-religious ones.

Also, as I said earlier:
"Whether or not the feelings are valid is another issue entirely"
I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to have it as a prayer room or make a protest about the issue, what I am saying is that the university should not feel compelled by anyone or anything to provide it for them.
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atkbm
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(Original post by Mimina)
The Multi Faith Centre (MFC) won't cater for the 500+ students.These MFC facilities aren't even enough for the male students. All we are demanding is the Octagon or the Great Hall so female students can pray as well as the male muslim students. Currently, the male, students take over the women's section in the MFC and no it's not about sexism, it's just that Friday Congregational Prayer is not obligatory on women, however, we'd like to pray our prayers as well.
I find it ridiculous to read things like go to the mosques near by. The mosques around the uni are working over capacity and the QM ISoc has letters from the mosques proving this. Also, as a student who has lectures on the campus, how convenient is it to go pray in another mosque? it takes over an hour just walking back and from it.
The thing that upsets me is the university claiming that the Octagon and the Great Hall are used during Fridays at that slot. Spot checks were carried and those venues were empty!! We prayed and it was all perfectly fine last year, why take the venues away from us?
This is not about Muslim students only! This is about freedom of expression and freedom of practising our faith! There are quite a lot of issues with room booking for all societies, so we are doing this for other societies as well as Isoc! The university needs to respond to students demands. We are backed by the Student Union and that's what the union is about!
Oh, Ok. I thought wrong. Forgive my mistakes.
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Mimina
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(Original post by Dragonfly07)
The university isn't obliged to give you the room whether it's free or not. Sure you're allowed to come to uni for advice on absolutely anything.

I came to my university for financial advice. But if I told my uni that my financial requirements were x amount of money then they can give me advice about how to get that money, but they're not obliged to give me that money in any way. If I started complaining everywhere about how the uni doesn't give me free money people would get ANNOYED at me.

Same applies to spare rooms. Just **** off, no one owes you anything. Your religion is not special. You should have no special privileges just because you're Muslim. Solve your own problems.
Just because you're not as devoted as Muslims to a religion, doesn't give you the right to ban another religious group from practising their religion the right way!
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HenryD
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
People have this idea that tuition fees only pay for the education part..........it actually doesn't, it pays for a lot more, the experience of university. The university is there to provide more than education, to develop the next generation, to look after their well being, etc.

Of course Mosques do friday prayers, every mosque does :rolleyes: the matter is that in reality there is only one mosque nearby, which can't meet the demands of the local people, as its overflowing, so how can they meet the demand of the students. The ISOC has even gone and talked to them and they have been told exactly that, that they can't take so many people.

We aren't demanding...............we are asking for the right to use the octagon hall or the theatre hall, for 1 hour every friday during midday like we had been doing so before this academic year. The ISOC doesn't even have their own exclusive prayer room, its a multi-faith room which has different timings for use by different group, so as it is we actually share our facilities despite the university renegading on a agreement a few years back saying they'll give them their own one. We haven't complained so much about that.............but it all started going wrong when QM security came in during friday prayers and essentially started limiting the space we could use, the girls can't join in on friday prayers in those original rooms as we don't have space and the prayers are obligatory for the guys....so they were ok with us using their room.............and even then it overflowed on to the washing area, the shoe area........now they force the isoc to not use any of the space, force them to have to turn away people for friday prayers.
Unless there was an agreement when you paid your fees that this particular society would have these rooms or one of them at a particular time every week then you can't make that argument. Universities aren't obligated to provided it just because you're paying a lot, that's not how it works. You wouldn't buy any other product and then ask for some extra service not in the contract because you paid a lot for it. If it is free then there should be a booking system or something so that different societies can book it when it's free, but there's no reason you guys would get it everywhere week at that time anyway if a different one wanted it. I have no problem with it being used for praying if the Uni thinks that's viable but I do dislike the martyred attitude some people have (not necessarily you), at the end of the day this isn't the Uni's responsibility.
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Mimina
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(Original post by atkbm)
Oh, Ok. I thought wrong. Forgive my mistakes.
Don't worry about it. Sadly, a lot of students seem to not know all the details. If you read the Queen Mary Right to Pray petition page on Change.org , you will understand properly.

I personally enjoyed my studying in QM last year and was really impressed by how much support there was to societies but since this problem I'm very disappointed!
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Iqbal007
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(Original post by Origami Bullets)
So, is there any reason why the iSoc cannot charge membership fees and rent out facilities off-campus using those fees, as I outlined here? It's what every other society has to do when the university cannot or will not provide suitable facilities.

And can you shed any light on why, if the rooms are not in use, the university might have chosen to change their position and prevent the iSoc using them? It seems very strange to me that the university would change their position without reason. Have there, for instance, been any disagreements between the university and iSoc in the last academic year?
They do, just like any other society.......they encourage though not necessary as a religious society they are open to all.
It's just a bit weird, because all societies are allowed to book rooms, etc free of charge but suddenly the 2 halls are suddenly off limits.

I have no idea at all.....................but there has been, one was that the university backed out of a older agreement which had existed, which was to provide a Muslim only prayer room, but instead they provided a multi-faith room and have been trying to work with it. That was last year, and suddenly this came about during the start of term

(Original post by HenryD)
Unless there was an agreement when you paid your fees that this particular society would have these rooms or one of them at a particular time every week then you can't make that argument. Universities aren't obligated to provided it just because you're paying a lot, that's not how it works. You wouldn't buy any other product and then ask for some extra service not in the contract because you paid a lot for it. If it is free then there should be a booking system or something so that different societies can book it when it's free, but there's no reason you guys would get it everywhere week at that time anyway if a different one wanted it. I have no problem with it being used for praying if the Uni thinks that's viable but I do dislike the martyred attitude some people have (not necessarily you), at the end of the day this isn't the Uni's responsibility.
Societies at uni's are given the ability to book rooms free of charge as can lecturers, its only for external groups for which they charge.............its just suddenly from my understanding those 2 halls are no longer being allowed for use suddenly this.
Thats the issue, the current facilities have also been limited by QM security as said before.....and these halls are not being used yet the isoc is still being denied usage. ISOC had always used either of the 2 for the past few years, put everything back to the way it was, cleaned up, etc no problem.
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Origami Bullets
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
They do, just like any other society.......they encourage though not necessary as a religious society they are open to all.
It's just a bit weird, because all societies are allowed to book rooms, etc free of charge but suddenly the 2 halls are suddenly off limits.

I have no idea at all.....................but there has been, one was that the university backed out of a older agreement which had existed, which was to provide a Muslim only prayer room, but instead they provided a multi-faith room and have been trying to work with it. That was last year, and suddenly this came about during the start of term
If you're uncomfortable with charging for access to Friday prayers, then to be honest with you I think the simplest solution is to make paying membership dues compulsory for all activities that aren't Friday prayers. There are other hireable facilities nearby, and it would end this fight with the university. Then, once the dust has settled in a few years, the iSoc can go back and try to book rooms again. Chances are the university will recognise that there is a new committee, new membership etc. and allow it - but the longer goes on, the longer the whole thing is going to remain in the institutional memory and the less conciliatory they're going to be.

Given that the SU is supporting you, don't they have any rooms that they can make available to accommodate at least part of the iSoc whilst others pray in the multi faith centre? I get that you need to pray en masse, but I can't see that having two rooms is any different to people praying in two different mosques.

Have their been any incidents regarding speakers with questionable records on hate speech / extremism i.e. the sort of person that might bring the university into disrepute? I know there was something of a hoo-ha last year at my own university when an outside speaker was brought in, and then proceeded to say that he thought gays should be killed. This, understandably, did not go down well.
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HenryD
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(Original post by Iqbal007)



Societies at uni's are given the ability to book rooms free of charge as can lecturers, its only for external groups for which they charge.............its just suddenly from my understanding those 2 halls are no longer being allowed for use suddenly this.
Thats the issue, the current facilities have also been limited by QM security as said before.....and these halls are not being used yet the isoc is still being denied usage. ISOC had always used either of the 2 for the past few years, put everything back to the way it was, cleaned up, etc no problem.
Perhaps they know they'll need it far more often this year? Maybe there were problems with different societies wanting it at the same time? I don't know, my only point is that the University does not have any obligation to provide a space for you to practice your religion.
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Muslims involved in Islamic societies in unis are if not extreme are almost extreme in my opinion. Your average muslim student is not involved with such groups and are busy studying and when they want to pray they wouldn't make any fuss and would pray anywhere possible..
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GottaLovePhysics! :)
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I go to QM and ill tell you now, that library needs less "Prayer space" and more computers.

As for Friday calling, if they have the hall space, I say let-em.
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(Original post by Iqbal007)
Who are you to say how others feel when they go to pray.........I feel like its a break for me, for me to refreshen myself up and contributes to my well being. Of course it does, especially their mental health.

Necessity differs people to people.........as such it is a necessity for those that are compelled to pray. As can the uni to open up the booking system, its their choice as well.
And its not asking for a lot at all from he uni.......its been done before for years and the uni was completely ok with it.

Thats what we'll do, pray outside...............as they have been doing for the past few weeks. And guess what, its actually working.......we have a right to campaign however we feel, we also as paying students have a right to say that our needs aren't met.

If your so against it, why don't you go and campaign that you don't want it.
Otherwise this debate is pointless as it leads to nowhere, you won't change your mind of your opinion.........but the campaign won't stop till the university reverses its decision.
I used to be a devote Muslim, so yeah I know exactly how many Muslims feel about praying. If you're saying that QM should provide a larger prayer facility because it’s like a break for Muslims and it helps them refresh their minds then surely the same reason can be provided by students asking for universities to provide them with non-educational like facilities like clubs, bars, etc on campus?
It’s not a necessity. Wheelchair access is a necessity for disabled students because they are physically unable to choose to walk to their lectures. A prayer room is not a necessity because Muslim students are physically able to skip the prayer and attend the lecture on time; it is completely down to choice.
Yes it may not be asking for a lot but if the university has said no then the Isoc is taking it too far by starting such a serious campaign. That’s great. Keep praying outside. Just don’t demand that a PUBLIC institution setup for the purpose of education cater for religious needs.
Stop bringing up the issue of ‘paying students’. Just because you’re paying £9000 does not mean you can demand that the university provides whatever unnecessary non educational facilities you desire. You’re paying £9000 primarily FOR YOUR COURSE.
Off course the campaign won’t stop until the university reverses its decision. I know how hard headed Muslim youths are nowadays. When Muslims want something they have to have it and they won’t stop until they get it. What will you guys be campaigning for next? For lectures to start late during Ramadan to make things easier for Muslim students who are fasting?
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Spongebob'sPants
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Interesting.

Any institute should consider the needs of all its members and cater for them as best as they can, but in no way does anyone have a "right" for a larger room.

I'm sure if QM could facilitate this "larger room" comfortably, they would. Perhaps they have their reasons.

People have a right to pray, but i fail to see why QM HAS to give them a space to pray. They have kindly provided them with a space - if it is not sufficient enough for their needs, and QM aren't able to provide a larger room, surely the students should try to seek out an alternative location for where they can pray?

This is almost akin to saying that the the Muslim students demand lectures not to coincide with prayer time as it is their "right" to pray? It's not really feasible.
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