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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    On the whole, CS is a solid subject to study; the only difference is if you want to actually go into the field you should be delving into projects/internships before hand.
    Is it though? It seems like it covers everything in not much detail. Tech is huge, sure. But aren't you better off doing a software engineering degree if you wish to be a programer or a Cyber security degree if you want to get into that?

    You speak of projects/internships but that's only possible if you know what your future specialism is going to be.
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    (Original post by Kvothe the arcane)
    Is it though? It seems like it covers everything in not much detail. Tech is huge, sure. But aren't you better off doing a software engineering degree if you wish to be a programer or a Cyber security degree if you want to get into that?

    You speak of projects/internships but that's only possible if you know what your future specialism is going to be.
    CS fundamentals > Software Engineering

    Any major tech/gaming company hiring grads would like someone who's immersed themselves in the study of the building blocks behind CompSci, they help to instill a sense of what is going on behind the scenes.

    It's easier to mould someone who has the fundamentals down and not someone who's pigeonholed themselves.

    Nope, could be any sort of software/development project. You don't need to know what field you want to go into in order to tinker around and build stuff.

    Google for example (and many SV tech companies) value a curious mind, one that is able to switch between laying out an ironclad algo and hammering down the intricacies of a database.

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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    CS fundamentals > Software Engineering

    Any major tech/gaming company hiring grads would like someone who's immersed themselves in the study of the building blocks behind CompSci, they help to instill a sense of what is going on behind the scenes.

    It's easier to mould someone who has the fundamentals down and not someone who's pigeonholed themselves.

    Nope, could be any sort of software/development project. You don't need to know what field you want to go into in order to tinker around and build stuff.

    Google for example (and many SV tech companies) value a curious mind, one that is able to switch between laying out an ironclad algo and hammering down the intricacies of a database.

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    For networks they do often want you to "pigeon hole yourself" that is to say in the networking side of IT

    Ofc networking itself splits off in to various specialisms - this is where the real pigeon holing comes ib
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Interesting article.

    So, let me address his points:

    Cyber defen[cs]e is often the opposite of a creative activity

    I both agree and disagree. It depends how your organisation looks at Cyber Security. So many organisations I've worked with see it as an undesirable burden that stifles getting things done. Security shouldn't do that - it should be an enabler of business, not suffocate it. In addition, so many security professionals choose to not push the envelope when it comes to analysis or fixing the root causes of problems. They end up turning the crank all day dealing with the same - Detect > Analyse > Remediate > Close Ticket > Get a coffee > Repeat ad infinitum - loop all day every day. That sort of environment sucks. As a security professional, it's your job to innovate and come up with novel ways of solving the problem. That's inherently fun and exciting to be involved with.

    Classified environments

    Not gonna lie, it sucks. If you don't want to work in classified environments, don't work in the Public Sector or the Defence industry.

    Microsoft Land

    Bovvered.

    Small cog, big machine

    There are plenty of huge organisations out there that don't have this culture of top down, thou shalt do what I say. The organisation I work for is a great example of this, for instance.

    Government pork

    Ehh... government contracts are some of the more challenging ones I've worked on, simply because you're working with competimates and they often exist in heavily outsourced environments that are totally inflexible and indefensible. Still... pays the bills.
    With regards to the classified bit , up until late afternoon yesterday we weren't even allowed to say that BT had gone down nationwide as I signed an NDA or whatever you call it though TBC they still haven't actually progressed my SC clearance
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Why? Did you not see the people on here making £80-100k after 4 years?

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    Computer science degrees are mostly is irrelevant to the day-to-day as a programmer, even in fields like machine learning. Brother who is a classics graduate got a job at google because he can program. What is essential (algorithmic design data structures) can be self-taught online for free extremely easily and is definitely not required to be studied formally.

    Further, Computer Science as we are studying it now will be outdated in 20 years (according to the Cambridge CS professor I spoke to when there for an open day). The guys fiddling with the AIs are going to be what are currently mathematicians.

    Moreover, programming + something else tends to yield more now. eg. biochemistry w/ programming, etc. -- CS graduates who can program are a dime a dozen. They say there is a shortage at the top and people assume they are going to be in the top... It's not reasonable for every graduate to think that. Nor is it reasonable to assume they will get there in the first few years of their career. The bottom few years are bloated.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Any major tech/gaming company hiring grads would like someone who's immersed themselves in the study of the building blocks behind CompSci, they help to instill a sense of what is going on behind the scenes.
    They tend to prefer to hire maths and physics graduates who can program above CS graduates.

    Seems you're quick to defend your choices on information from quora and the like that is now outdated.
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    I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for undergrads to understand.

    A cs degree on its own is unlikely to get You a job.

    A cs degree with personal projects will. That requires doing stuff outside of your degree. Employers don't see doing a degree as proof you are interested in a subject.

    For example, if you get to an interview, they are going to hear about things you do in your spare time to learn more. There's loads of opportunities for this in every area of IT.

    Software engineering: attend hackathons, create software and post it online.

    Security: pick a subject and do some research, there's plenty of resources online. Take part in CTF's, do the cyber security challenge.

    It normally boils down to laziness from what I've seen
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    (Original post by The Arsonist)
    Computer science degrees are mostly is irrelevant to the day-to-day as a programmer, even in fields like machine learning. Brother who is a classics graduate got a job at google because he can program. What is essential (algorithmic design data structures) can be self-taught online for free extremely easily and is definitely not required to be studied formally.

    Further, Computer Science as we are studying it now will be outdated in 20 years (according to the Cambridge CS professor I spoke to when there for an open day). The guys fiddling with the AIs are going to be what are currently mathematicians.

    Moreover, programming + something else tends to yield more now. eg. biochemistry w/ programming, etc. -- CS graduates who can program are a dime a dozen. They say there is a shortage at the top and people assume they are going to be in the top... It's not reasonable for every graduate to think that. Nor is it reasonable to assume they will get there in the first few years of their career. The bottom few years are bloated.
    Pretty much this.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Why? Did you not see the people on here making £80-100k after 4 years?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    That's not exactly the norm though. It's certainly possible if you're doing something for which demand outstrips supply of decent people (cyber security being a good example, and anything around data science / analytics is very good at the moment, and undoubtedly a few more if you did some research). But then there are plenty of things that are never going to pay you 100k as a developer regardless of how much experience you've got.
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    (Original post by The Arsonist)
    They tend to prefer to hire maths and physics graduates who can program above CS graduates.

    Seems you're quick to defend your choices on information from quora and the like that is now outdated.
    It really isn't 'outdated'. Everyone keeps bashing CS degrees like it's some lethal armegeddon choice that'll keep you out of any job. That is what's pissing me off, because the degree is a solid well rounded walk into the fundamentals behind computation; it's not a freaking programming 101 degree.

    Your other comment is *******s. Maths/Physics/CS is the usual combo of degrees that I've seen for any sort of quantitative/algorithm heavy finance role. Neither is 'favoured' (oh god can we not use this word) over the other, so long as the candidate has what it takes to get the job done.

    You're quick to put down a solid degree to feed into your own egotistical sense of place.
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    (Original post by The Arsonist)
    Computer science degrees are mostly is irrelevant to the day-to-day as a programmer, even in fields like machine learning. Brother who is a classics graduate got a job at google because he can program. What is essential (algorithmic design data structures) can be self-taught online for free extremely easily and is definitely not required to be studied formally.

    Further, Computer Science as we are studying it now will be outdated in 20 years (according to the Cambridge CS professor I spoke to when there for an open day). The guys fiddling with the AIs are going to be what are currently mathematicians.

    Moreover, programming + something else tends to yield more now. eg. biochemistry w/ programming, etc. -- CS graduates who can program are a dime a dozen. They say there is a shortage at the top and people assume they are going to be in the top... It's not reasonable for every graduate to think that. Nor is it reasonable to assume they will get there in the first few years of their career. The bottom few years are bloated.
    CS as a degree isn't about teaching people how to code. That goes for any mathematical science for god's sake. It's like saying Physics grads learn completely irrelevant information how will they get jobs as developers? No, they don't get hired for 'programming knowledge' as grads they get hired because they've been exposed to key concepts that are transferrable into the software dev realm

    Re:Google. Yes, it's pretty well known that you can get a dev job without a CS or Maths/Physics/Engineering degree. That's not exactly an argument... You can get an Investment Banking job without a finance degree (in fact most don't have finance degrees), so what's the point in studying Finance? Your arguments here are so thin on the ground - studying CS opens up a world of various opportunities, the people sometimes just aren't good enough to take them up. Look at the grad employment rates for the top end spectrum of universities and you'll see what I mean; good people, find good jobs.

    Your whole YouTube/online self-teaching spiel can be said for most degrees, it's an irrelevant point

    There is a vast shortage of qualified individuals in Tech at the moment and that shortage is only ever going to increase as we see more growth in the sector. As has been said before, if someone isn't willing to put in the extra effort outside of their degree in order to make themselves employable, it's unlikely that they'll fair well come grad job hunting season.

    Future CompScis reading this: forget the negativity and pursue the subject but make sure you have an idea of what you want to do after uni. Do things to beef up your CV, get involved with hackathons, build projects that tickle your fancy and find internships at startups.
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    (Original post by tim_123)
    i'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for undergrads to understand.

    A cs degree on its own is unlikely to get you a job.

    A cs degree with personal projects will. That requires doing stuff outside of your degree. Employers don't see doing a degree as proof you are interested in a subject.

    For example, if you get to an interview, they are going to hear about things you do in your spare time to learn more. There's loads of opportunities for this in every area of it.

    Software engineering: Attend hackathons, create software and post it online.

    Security: Pick a subject and do some research, there's plenty of resources online. Take part in ctf's, do the cyber security challenge.

    It normally boils down to laziness from what i've seen
    this all over ^^^^^^^^^^^^
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    (Original post by tim_123)
    I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for undergrads to understand.

    A cs degree on its own is unlikely to get You a job.

    A cs degree with personal projects will. That requires doing stuff outside of your degree. Employers don't see doing a degree as proof you are interested in a subject.

    For example, if you get to an interview, they are going to hear about things you do in your spare time to learn more. There's loads of opportunities for this in every area of IT.

    Software engineering: attend hackathons, create software and post it online.

    Security: pick a subject and do some research, there's plenty of resources online. Take part in CTF's, do the cyber security challenge.

    It normally boils down to laziness from what I've seen
    I don't know that much, but to me it sounds like the personal projects are far more important than the degree. Is there a difference between a CS degree with personal projects and say a Maths degree with the same personal projects?
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    (Original post by Speckle)
    I don't know that much, but to me it sounds like the personal projects are far more important than the degree. Is there a difference between a CS degree with personal projects and say a Maths degree with the same personal projects?
    Very little, a few places and some niche areas would have their preferences for certain courses (and certain universities), but for every job that prefers a CS degree would be another job that prefers a maths/physics degree.
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    Problem I find for the most part is people are under the strange idea that the degree always means jobs. Often or not having the right connections and some common sense goes a longer way than a degree. From employers I've contacted (Looking for a year in industry/summer job) have said far too many graduates only know monkey work. They aren't willing to think for themselves or confront their boss when they believe there's a more efficient way of accomplishing a task.

    A lecturer/supervisor isn't going to be there to hold your hand when you need to complete a task or make a mistake in the real world.
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    (Original post by Binary Freak)
    Problem I find for the most part is people are under the strange idea that the degree always means jobs. Often or not having the right connections and some common sense goes a longer way than a degree. From employers I've contacted (Looking for a year in industry/summer job) have said far too many graduates only know monkey work. They aren't willing to think for themselves or confront their boss when they believe there's a more efficient way of accomplishing a task.

    A lecturer/supervisor isn't going to be there to hold your hand when you need to complete a task or make a mistake in the real world.
    Yes, strange that when people drop 60-70 grand and three plus years of reasonably hard work on a degree that they want to see a return and wonder about the odds of getting a return.

    You're right of course, in today's climate I'd probably baulk at the cost of a CS degree in case I didn't have the "right connections" to get a decent return out of it. Then of course if everyone was conservative, industry would be screaming about the lack of candidates to choose from and wages might have to rise lol.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Your other comment is *******s. Maths/Physics/CS is the usual combo of degrees that I've seen for any sort of quantitative/algorithm heavy finance role. Neither is 'favoured' (oh god can we not use this word) over the other, so long as the candidate has what it takes to get the job done.
    I didn't even mention finance. I was talking abut game design like you. Please read thoroughly before taking a condescending tone. You might make an ass of yourself.

    Your 'Got what it takes to get the job done' stance is mostly relevant in silicon valley. Elsewhere, it's the same old.
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    (Original post by The Arsonist)
    You said "Look at the grad employment rates for the top end spectrum of universities and you'll see what I mean; good people, find good jobs." earlier. This is ridiculous as an argument. Considering I've seen your grades from first attempt at your highers, I don't think you're really in a position to make trivialities of how difficult it is to be one of the top graduates in a rigorous discipline like CS and a great coder.
    Lol 😂
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    (Original post by The Arsonist)
    You're just arguing the same point as me here.


    Sure it is an argument. Neither finance nor CS are great degrees if you're looking to play the game smart in terms of what to go for.


    Resources for CS are more abundant and more accessible, thus making it easier to do than for other subject. Not redundant.


    At the top. Outsourcing will continue to increase for work at the bottom end of tech. Those roles at the top don't account for most CS graduates. You said "Look at the grad employment rates for the top end spectrum of universities and you'll see what I mean; good people, find good jobs." earlier. This is ridiculous as an argument. Considering I've seen your grades from first attempt at your highers, I don't think you're really in a position to make trivialities of how difficult it is to be one of the top graduates in a rigorous discipline like CS and a great coder.
    Cheers, of course you have no idea why or how it happened but using it as an ad hominem in your response is of course the best way to go about things

    Anyway, you're clearly just a d-bag, I'm not wasting my time replying to you.

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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Lol 😂
    Try laughing when the reason behind it was out of your control; it'd be super hilarious then.

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