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What percentage of blame, if at all any, rests with the victim during rape? Watch

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    (Original post by miser)
    I think there is some nuance missing from this debate.

    The fact of the matter is that whether we like it or not, our behaviour affects how likely we are to be victims of crime, and rape is no different. If someone leaves their bike unattended day after day without a bike lock and one day it gets stolen, the victim holds a degree of causal responsibility for this insofar as his or her choices contributed to the outcome. Now, the victim didn't do anything wrong, but you could argue they were negligent and so on. There is also a culture in the UK of believing people deserve the fruits of their negligence, e.g. that "stupid people deserve what they get", or in this case at least, "what did they expect to happen?". This is victim-blaming.
    This post is spot on and addresses what I brought up in post #65.

    I would argue that it's dangerous not to educate young women on precautions they could take to lessen their chances of being raped, if indeed there are any.
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    (Original post by miser)
    reasonable precautions
    I think this phrase is the main issue. To me, covering yourself up at all times and never drinking is not a reasonable precaution, its a serious impediment to enjoying life.

    Whereas not engaging with strange men seems a reasonable precaution, because it doesn't effect me. At the same time, women are told that this is rude and unfriendly and they are a ***** for ignoring these poor men, which is why many women try to be friendly about it, which causes all sorts of issues.
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    Nothing obviously

    If I did have a daughter (for example) and she was coming home from somewhere late at night, I would pick her her up because it is safer. I don't think that telling people how to stay safe, means you are blaming victims.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    And yet, our prisons are full because people have been given these opportunities?
    No, they're full because our prison system is terrible and once people go in once they are in and out for life as they become institutionalised or radicalised.

    A ridiculous number of prisoners were in care. That is not about opportunity, that's about having a ****ed up life that is bareley worth living.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I think this phrase is the main issue. To me, covering yourself up at all times and never drinking is not a reasonable precaution, its a serious impediment to enjoying life.

    Whereas not engaging with strange men seems a reasonable precaution, because it doesn't effect me. At the same time, women are told that this is rude and unfriendly and they are a ***** for ignoring these poor men, which is why many women try to be friendly about it, which causes all sorts of issues.
    Yes, I agree. It's a discussion that I think should be strongly informed by the facts and figures we have (or need), since it is essentially a question of how inconvenient a given precaution is versus how much it mitigates risk.

    My intuition on it is that women shouldn't be expected not to talk to strangers or go out alone at night, since these strike me as unreasonably debilitating, but I don't have the stats to back up my conception of the risk involved so could be swayed.
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    (Original post by Ripper-Roo)
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    I am, but I assumed we were talking about student life, not incest
    Or friend or boyfriend and etc.
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    (Original post by miser)
    Yes, I agree. It's a discussion that I think should be strongly informed by the facts and figures we have (or need), since it is essentially a question of how inconvenient a given precaution is versus how much it mitigates risk.

    My intuition on it is that women shouldn't be expected not to talk to strangers or go out alone at night, since these strike me as unreasonably debilitating, but I don't have the stats to back up my conception of the risk involved so could be swayed.
    There's no way anyone can avoid walking around alone after dark unless they are rich enough to get a taxi everywhere.

    Not talking to strangers is doable but does get you a lot of abuse in my experience.
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    To place blame at the feet of the victim is, in my opinion, to treat the rapist as some inevitable force of nature. He's not - he's a human being with agency.

    If logic dictates that we apply the same logic to victims of theft, then so be it. That seems more sensible to me than the extension of our flawed thinking about blame for theft to rape victims as well. The only reason this was ever tolerable reasoning in the case of theft is that the crime is less abhorrent.
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    That's a good point, but that wasn't the scenario I was talking about. I was talking mostly about women claiming that they shouldn't have to change their behaviour to avoid attracting strangers. Obviously if it Joe form the office, thats different entirely, but it is still equally futile teaching Joe 'not to rape'
    oh right, in that case I agree.
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    My opinion probably is not a favourable one, but anyway.

    There is some blame which can be put on the victim, obviously depending on the situation. Precautions should be taken to prevent rape, just as precautions are taken against burglaries, i.e. locking doors and windows, and against murder, i.e. by staying away from rough neighbourhoods when possible. It is illogical to think of rape any differently; if wearing a slightly longer skirt lowers the risk of getting raped, then do so; if avoiding alleys and rough neighbourhoods lowers the risk of getting raped, then do so.

    Rape is a crime, just as murder is a crime. Therefore precautions must be taken against rape in order to lower the chances of being raped. I cannot seem to understand why people are so anxious when the topic of rape comes up.
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    I love how people make these deliberately ridiculous comparisons between something so simple and easy like locking your car, and something completely fundamental and impinging upon freedom, like women not going out at night, as if that was in any way a valid analogy.

    Saying "look girls, you know the best way to avoid getting raped? Easy, Never walk home in the dark, never go to a nightclub, never drink alcohol, never wear anything that reveals you to be a woman" is about as ****ing ridiculous as saying:

    "hey guys, you know the best way to avoid being burgled? Yeah, its easy, just BURN ALL OF YOUR POSSESSIONS."
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    (Original post by EatAndRevise)
    My opinion probably is not a favourable one, but anyway.

    There is some blame which can be put on the victim, obviously depending on the situation. Precautions should be taken to prevent rape, just as precautions are taken against burglaries, i.e. locking doors and windows, and against murder, i.e. by staying away from rough neighbourhoods when possible. It is illogical to think of rape any differently; if wearing a slightly longer skirt lowers the risk of getting raped, then do so; if avoiding alleys and rough neighbourhoods lowers the risk of getting raped, then do so.

    Rape is a crime, just as murder is a crime. Therefore precautions must be taken against rape in order to lower the chances of being raped. I cannot seem to understand why people are so anxious when the topic of rape comes up.
    A perfect example! Read my post.

    Pro-tip: best way of avoiding being murdered is pre-emptive suicide.

    Another solution to rape would be to castrate every man alive. its true.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    A perfect example! Read my post.

    Pro-tip: best way of avoiding being murdered is pre-emptive suicide.

    Another solution to rape would be to castrate every man alive. its true.
    Sarcasm?
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    (Original post by This Is Matt)
    Whilst I agree there should not be an attitude claiming women deserve to be raped or encouragement to force victims to blame themself, there should be an acceptance around acting in a certain way reduces your chances of getting raped.

    Any evidence to support that claim though?



    Whilst I think that is particularly true for some cases of sexual harassment-i,e grabbing, verbal assault etc, I'm not so sure about rape. Rape is not often a case of the man not being physically able to help himself, it's far more complex than that. Rape is very often about power and control, that's why the majority of male rapists (as in males who rape other males) aren't even gay (http://www.secasa.com.au/pages/myths-about-male-rape/). They rape another man because it's seen as the most extreme exertion of power over another man, kind of like 'taking away his manhood'.

    I think saying that showing a lot of flesh increases the chance of rape, is a bit dodgy, too reductionist and suggests men are somehow less developed than they actually are, human beings aren't animals, we have a very good sense of control over ourselves. Rapists rape because they want to, not because they just couldn't control themselves. The rapist would have raped the victim whether her top was low cut, or not. That's what I think anyway.
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    (Original post by EatAndRevise)
    Sarcasm?
    I am being deliberately ridiculous, in order to highlight how equally ridiculous your suggestion that women shouldn't wear short skirts is in case it somehow "attracts" a rapist.


    For one thing, this idea that women need to cover up is incredibly insulting to men, this repugnant idea that all a woman has to do is show her knees and suddenly we turn into this pack of slavering dogs, only a hair trigger away from pinning down and brutally violating any woman that comes near us.
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    I think it is important to recognize that the precautions people suggest only would even apply to a small number of rape cases, i.e. random attacks in an alley way. The majority of rapes are committed by somebody the victim knows, and how do you make precautions against that? Most rape advice is like telling people to avoid murder by avoiding rough neighbourhoods when really their greatest threat is being killed by one of their friends or family, and there isn't much you can do to prevent or anticipate that eventuality. So yeah, take precautions and keep yourself safe, but in the end the biggest risks are actually impossible to mitigate.
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    (Original post by InsertWittyName)
    None, but there are things you can do to limit your chances of being raped, like not wearing heels so high you can barely walk in, avoiding dark alleys etc. In the same way the victim is not to blame for being mugged (99.9% of the time), but a bit of situational awareness can help prevent it.
    Given that most people are raped by people they know I'm not sure how wearing high heels or not is going to make any difference.

    THIS is the problem with these sorts of threads - they imply that stranger-rape is the biggest risk of rape when it really isn't.

    Drinking alcohol is the biggest risk for assault (sexual or physical) for ALL young people. If you want to protect people from violence then messages to both young men and women who are out socialising on looking after their friends is worthwhile - implying that drinking is only an issue for women because they might get raped and ignoring the huge amount of physical assaults young men are subjected to is just ridiculous. If you're more worried about telling women not to wear high heels than telling *all* young people to look out for each other when they're out for a night then you are sexist

    Teaching ALL people about consent (to protect men from false rape accusations and to empower victims that they can say no) is well worthwhile and would help to address the huge numbers of friend/relationship/acquaintance rape (and would also make it very clear to rapists that their behaviour is 100% NOT acceptable).

    The biggest risk factor for women for becoming victims of rape is if they are disabled. I would LOVE to hear from some of the people posting on this thread about what disabled women should be doing to protect themselves from rape.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    I am being deliberately ridiculous, in order to highlight how equally ridiculous your suggestion that women shouldn't wear short skirts is in case it somehow "attracts" a rapist.


    For one thing, this idea that women need to cover up is incredibly insulting to men, this repugnant idea that all a woman has to do is show her knees and suddenly we turn into this pack of slavering dogs, only a hair trigger away from pinning down and brutally violating any woman that comes near us.
    I am did not say "women shouldn't wear short skirts is in case it somehow "attracts" a rapist.", I said "if wearing a slightly longer skirt lowers the risk of getting raped, then do so". The key word being "If". Again, if short skirts do attract rapists, as you are claiming that was what I was assuming, then surely a woman would want to have a longer skirt in order to not attract a rapist.

    For me, if I knew that rapists were attracted to a bit more skin then I would show less skin.
 
 
 
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