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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    I'm sorry, but from my experience with girls, you could be absolutely perfect for them in terms of your personality, interests, general looks (relative equality~) while being "too nice" (e.g. just being a nice person, without actually being overly pleasant) can sometimes make you less attractive than an absolute prick; believe me, I've been very nice to girls that I got on extremely well with and they rejected me, then I was an absolute jerk to another similar girl and she went out with me in pretty much otherwise exactly the same conditions. face it - girls, many of them at least, a lot of the time, just don't like being treated well.
    'Nice guys finish last, Thank God I'm a douchebag' -Skizzy Mars

    Has never been so true in this topic :L

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    (Original post by Jakeh)
    But my point is right. I assumed we're talking about normal guys, not someone that lacks confidence? I mean, you can be a model and if you lack confidence still not be successful.
    But you said nice guys will get girls. That isn't true, being nice isn't really a big advantage at all.

    (Original post by what is this)
    Confident matters, but only once you meet a girls minimum looks barrier. Most girls don't consider average men so no amount of confidence or other over compensation [Huge body built on roids etc] outside of extreme wealth or status will make you attractive to her.

    simply not true. In fact it's the other way around.

    http://www.science20.com/news_articl...en_pickier_men


    http://healthland.time.com/2009/08/11/the-science-of-one-night-stands/


    Also add in the fact that 80% of women only found 20% of men attractive:

    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/yo...online-dating/

    Guys are much more forgiving on looks. A male 7 will still give a female 5 a chance, a girl just needs to not be physically deformed or fat [Even fat girls online get attention thought but seldom in real life]. Just being average alone is enough to exclude you in 80% of women's eyes.

    Go to any club and see the attention the average, slightly chubby female receives. You will notice that good looking men are giving her attention, maybe not male models but decently good looking blokes who are in shape.
    Yes they do, they might not consider ugly guys, but average, confident and funny? They can definitely get most girls.

    That's because way more men are after casual sex, so they can afford to be picky.

    If you read your own link you'd see that even though women are very harsh at rating guys below average, they're still willing to date them- "the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway"- thus backing up my point, that men can overcome not being seen as espeically attractive.

    Edit- your link actually also shows how looks are more important to men-
    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/atta...d=302875&stc=1

    Yes, again because men in our culture are far more likely to want casual sex. That "7" may get with a "5" but would he give her the light of day if he thought he could get a "9", even if the "5" has a much better personality?

    That sentance I've bolded backs up what I'm saying, you're so defeatist. Don't delude yourself, if you're average looking, plenty of guys who look like you are getting with fit girls, getting fit girlfriends. You can do that too.

    You're refusing to look outside a system, clubbing, where there's clearly a huge gulf in willingness of men and women to have one night stands, no wonder your views are so off. And a one night stand is naturally going to be more based on looks. You want to look at relationships to get a more rounded idea.
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    Part of being a decent person means you don't expect them to owe you anything. :rolleyes:

    If they have this "Nice Guy" complex then they don't fit the above description.
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    Study is deeply and worryingly flawed.

    Seriously, the **** that gets published nowadays is scary. Ask some people in a questionnaire what they would do in various scenarios and just assume that that is what would actually happen in reality, you've got to be ****ing kidding me.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)

    You're refusing to look outside a system, clubbing, where there's clearly a huge gulf in willingness of men and women to have one night stands, no wonder your views are so off. And a one night stand is naturally going to be more based on looks. You want to look at relationships to get a more rounded idea.

    He doesn't even need to consider relationships, he could just look at all the other sex, the 1, 2, 3 night stands people have in any scenario other than the stereotypical "met her in a club and ****ed her on the same night" clubbing one, that happens a lot less (as a %) than people think.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    Eventually you'll meet a guy who isn't good looking who gets ****loads of girls and realise things are more complex than you realise.
    That's rare. If you're ugly then your options are limited. Lets stop pretending that looks don't matter, because they do.
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    But why bother about relationships when you can't get far in ONS?

    Why would I want to be in a relationship with a girl who has had her fair share of male models and to whom I will always be compared to when I've had very little experience myself?

    If I also had a lot of experience then I wouldn't mind at all.
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    (Original post by what is this)
    what about this then:


    http://www.science20.com/news_articl...en_pickier_men


    But men need to be exceptionally attractive to tempt women to consider casual sex, they say.....



    Actual science and studies agreeing with my observations.
    There are many theories of attraction just google scholar and you will find loads of studies that each contradict each other.. thus is the nature of psychology. I have no idea which is the most supported theory because I haven't done any research into relationship psychology much like yourself who uses one study to support an argument. Also, you may want to link the actual journal and not an article since this is the watered down version of the study. As the person above mentioned this study was in regards to casual sex not long term relationships, two things which are vastly different.
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    (Original post by cole-slaw)
    He doesn't even need to consider relationships, he could just look at all the other sex, the 1, 2, 3 night stands people have in any scenario other than the stereotypical "met her in a club and ****ed her on the same night" clubbing one, that happens a lot less (as a %) than people think.
    Give me some pics and studies then.

    I have yet to see many ONS outside of clubs, where else would people have them?


    Seriously girls have so many options, the average, chubby girl gets hit on by 6+ males and the occasional male model looking guys, why should she consider the average guy because he's funny or confident? Girls don't **** a personality.
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    (Original post by Jibola240)
    That's rare. If you're ugly then your options are limited. Lets stop pretending that looks don't matter, because they do.
    Yes, if you're ugly your options are limited, if you read our conversation we aren't talking about ugly men, we're talking about average men. "Isn't good looking" doesn't equal "ugly".

    I've also clearly stated that looks do matter, but people, especially younger, more inexperienced guys, overestimate how much they matter for guys. Looks are important, confidence is more important.
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    (Original post by what is this)
    Why would you want to get into a relationship with a girl who has gone through many men whereas you have barely had your share of the girls?
    Well if nothing else you get far far more sex in a relationship than you ever could pulling. Then there are the obvious non-sex related benefits. It is working nicely for me.
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    (Original post by Mankytoes)

    I've also clearly stated that looks do matter, but people, especially younger, more inexperienced guys, overestimate how much they matter for guys. Looks are important, confidence is more important.
    In your theory then, where do you think looks and confidence rank and at which time is it the point of diminishing returns?

    For example I say the better looking you are than the girl the less and less confidence you need BUT she needs to be sexually attracted to you first through your physical traits.

    In that sense confidence matter but looks is a necessary requirements. Without the looks there is no point of confidence by itself.

    So this means that you can't get her through no amount of confidence or personality if you don't meet her physical standard.

    So for simplicity sakes, say we take a girl who's an average 5/10. If you're a 5/10 you'd need insane confidence and a good body.

    If you're a 6 you'd need confidence but not so much.

    If you're a 7 you'd just need to be socially adjusted and not be a total inept retard

    If you're an 8+ you don't even need to open your mouth etc.
    (Original post by lucaf)
    Well if nothing else you get far far more sex in a relationship than you ever could pulling. Then there are the obvious non-sex related benefits. It is working nicely for me.
    I guess that's one way of looking at it. Just don't put too much into the relationship and be ready to break it off any time.

    Personally, if I was sexually inexperienced and hadn't gotten many girls I could never get into a relationship with a girl who has had many partners.

    I wouldn't mind it though if I had also had my fair share of partners though.
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    (Original post by what is this)

    I guess that's one way of looking at it. Just don't put too much into the relationship and be ready to break it off any time.

    Personally, if I was sexually inexperienced and hadn't gotten many girls I could never get into a relationship with a girl who has had many partners.

    I wouldn't mind it though if I had also had my fair share of partners though.
    Or, you know, you could look at it in a less cynical and negative way? It amazes me how you can look at women and relationships with an attitude like yours and be surprised you don't get anywhere with them. Funnily enough not putting much into relationships and being ready to break it off at any time is not a massive turn on for the ladies.
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    (Original post by lucaf)
    Or, you know, you could look at it in a less cynical and negative way? It amazes me how you can look at women and relationships with an attitude like yours and be surprised you don't get anywhere with them. Funnily enough not putting much into relationships and being ready to break it off at any time is not a massive turn on for the ladies.
    Like I said I would not prefer to be in a relationship with a sexually experienced woman if I wasn't experienced myself.

    If I was experienced then yes I wouldn't care about her past experiences.

    How can you not understand the dynamic that establishes?
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    (Original post by what is this)
    Like I said I would not prefer to be in a relationship with a sexually experienced woman if I wasn't experienced myself.

    If I was experienced then yes I wouldn't care about her past experiences.

    How can you not understand the dynamic that establishes?
    find a girl who is not very sexually experienced then. And that still doesn't change the fact you have a very negative view of relationships and women, which naturally means you will find it difficult to get either as a result. Never had a ONS so I can't say much about that, but for relationships looks do not matter nearly as much as you say.
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    (Original post by what is this)
    In your theory then, where do you think looks and confidence rank and at which time is it the point of diminishing returns?

    For example I say the better looking you are than the girl the less and less confidence you need BUT she needs to be sexually attracted to you first through your physical traits.

    In that sense confidence matter but looks is a necessary requirements. Without the looks there is no point of confidence by itself.

    So this means that you can't get her through no amount of confidence or personality if you don't meet her physical standard.

    So for simplicity sakes, say we take a girl who's an average 5/10. If you're a 5/10 you'd need insane confidence and a good body.

    If you're a 6 you'd need confidence but not so much.

    If you're a 7 you'd just need to be socially adjusted and not be a total inept retard

    If you're an 8+ you don't even need to open your mouth etc.


    I guess that's one way of looking at it. Just don't put too much into the relationship and be ready to break it off any time.

    Personally, if I was sexually inexperienced and hadn't gotten many girls I could never get into a relationship with a girl who has had many partners.

    I wouldn't mind it though if I had also had my fair share of partners though.
    I'd say you need a base level of looks with any girl, but that base level can be pretty low, even with very attractive girls, if you have enough other qualities. And you pretty much always need some confidence. This is one way movies have lied to us, they often portray stuttering and insecure guys as cute and charming. Doesn't really work in reality, sadly.

    You can't just assign numbers to people, it's so negative, and overly simplistic. It depends on the girl. Is she insecure? Does she feel comfortable? Is she willing to have casual sex?

    You always need to "open your mouth", because most women don't approach men. How is anything going to happen if this "eight out of ten" guy doesn't talk to the girl? Most girls won't talk to him.

    Ignore out of tens, leagues, all this ****, it's simple.
    - See an attractive girl. Don't worry about how attractive she is relative to you, just go for it.
    - Walk over confidently
    - Smile and say hello
    - Make her laugh
    - Make her feel secure around you
    - Flirt, but don't make her feel pressured

    I'm not saying it's easy, but it is simple. Whereas looking round thinking "oh, she's an eight, I'm only a six, maybe I can get a seven if there aren't any eight guys around", that's never going to get you laid.

    Lets face it, with your theory couples like this are impossible-

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/atta...d=302901&stc=1

    I don't know anything about this guy, but I can guarentee he did three things- he made her laugh, he appeared confident and he made her feel secure.
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    (Original post by lucaf)
    find a girl who is not very sexually experienced then. And that still doesn't change the fact you have a very negative view of relationships and women, which naturally means you will find it difficult to get either as a result.
    How do I have a negative view of women? All I've said is that they prioritise looks over anything else.

    Never had a ONS so I can't say much about that, but for relationships looks do not matter nearly as much as you say.
    I accept the fact that look don't matter as much for relationships. An average looking guy can get a girl looksmatches with him, perhaps even slightly higher if he has things in his life sorted.

    But in this world of supposed sexual liberation what's the point of just relationships when the 7+ guys are getting new girls everyday?
    (Original post by Mankytoes)
    I'd say you need a base level of looks with any girl, but that base level can be pretty low, even with very attractive girls, if you have enough other qualities. And you pretty much always need some confidence. This is one way movies have lied to us, they often portray stuttering and insecure guys as cute and charming. Doesn't really work in reality, sadly.

    You can't just assign numbers to people, it's so negative, and overly simplistic. It depends on the girl. Is she insecure? Does she feel comfortable? Is she willing to have casual sex?

    You always need to "open your mouth", because most women don't approach men. How is anything going to happen if this "eight out of ten" guy doesn't talk to the girl? Most girls won't talk to him.

    Ignore out of tens, leagues, all this ****, it's simple.
    - See an attractive girl. Don't worry about how attractive she is relative to you, just go for it.
    - Walk over confidently
    - Smile and say hello
    - Make her laugh
    - Make her feel secure around you
    - Flirt, but don't make her feel pressured

    I'm not saying it's easy, but it is simple. Whereas looking round thinking "oh, she's an eight, I'm only a six, maybe I can get a seven if there aren't any eight guys around", that's never going to get you laid.

    Lets face it, with your theory couples like this are impossible-

    I don't know anything about this guy, but I can guarentee he did three things- he made her laugh, he appeared confident and he made her feel secure.
    I can't see the pic but I accepted a that looks don't matter nearly as much for relationships where you can use status and money to leverage any advantage the good looking guys have.

    But just think 50 years ago all what a man needed was masculinity and a stable job, looks pretty much never factored into it.

    Now a guy needs a good job [Definitely needs to earn more than her], looks, tall, a good body, confidence to get a girl with the same looks as him into a relationship. The role of masculinity and the prioritisation of it by women has definitely gone down, I personally put this down to women becoming more masculine as a whole [and vice versa for men].

    I am generally talking about casual sex before though but relationships are definitely a different beast altogether. Getting into one isn't as hard as maintaining one with your dignity and respect in tact.
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    (Original post by what is this)
    How do I have a negative view of women? All I've said is that they prioritise looks over anything else.


    I accept the fact that look don't matter as much for relationships. An average looking guy can get a girl looksmatches with him, perhaps even slightly higher if he has things in his life sorted.

    But in this world of supposed sexual liberation what's the point of just relationships when the 7+ guys are getting new girls everyday?
    well that is pretty negative to start with. Then there is the whole "get a relationship but don't put much in and prepare to bail" thing.

    As for the point of relationships, even if you are being so shallow as to only think of sex you are still going to get more from a relationship than even the most successful player could get from ONS's. I would need to go out three or four times a week with a 100% pulling success rate to match what I am getting from my girlfriend, and that just sounds expensive. And then of course there are the non sex parts of relationships which are also pretty awesome, although I can see why somebody with your outlook wouldn't even consider that.
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    (Original post by what is this)

    I accept the fact that look don't matter as much for relationships. An average looking guy can get a girl looksmatches with him, perhaps even slightly higher if he has things in his life sorted.

    But in this world of supposed sexual liberation what's the point of just relationships when the 7+ guys are getting new girls everyday?

    I can't see the pic but I accepted a that looks don't matter nearly as much for relationships where you can use status and money to leverage any advantage the good looking guys have.

    But just think 50 years ago all what a man needed was masculinity and a stable job, looks pretty much never factored into it.

    Now a guy needs a good job [Definitely needs to earn more than her], looks, tall, a good body, confidence to get a girl with the same looks as him into a relationship. The role of masculinity and the prioritisation of it by women has definitely gone down, I personally put this down to women becoming more masculine as a whole [and vice versa for men].

    I am generally talking about casual sex before though but relationships are definitely a different beast altogether. Getting into one isn't as hard as maintaining one with your dignity and respect in tact.
    That language, again, is so negative. Why should it be "even slightly higher"? At a younger age, it's actually more girls who're interested in relationships, the odds are actually in your favour. I hear a lot of guys who aren't as successful as they'd like, so they exaggerate how difficult it is.

    Because they aren't, few guys register those kinds of numbers, and because a relationship can be more enjoyable.

    Google "Christina Hendrix husband". Basically it's a stunning, successful girl with a bang average husband. She doesn't lack status or money, in fact she certainly has more of the former and quite possibly more of the latter. This is where you start sounding mysogynistic- you refuse to accept a woman might be with a guy for his personality. If it isn't looks, it must be status or money. It couldn't be personality and love.

    But what's that based on? There have always been players, read about the romantic poets like Byron. Obviously there was more social pressure to conform to "acceptable" men, but attraction hasn't really changed.

    That's rubbish, if women were that picky, then most of them wouldn't be able to get boyfriends. The whole "it's harder for guys to get girlfriends" thing doesn't add up, when for every girl in a relationship there's a guy in a relationship.

    Why exactly is that?
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    If you act nice, you will attract a girl who likes nice guys.

    It's really, really simple.
 
 
 
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