If this man totally wrong and cameron totally right Watch

MatureStudent36
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#101
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#101
(Original post by Burridge)
When did I claim that unchallenged sanctions were incorrect? Please quote me.

"When heard in front of an independent and fully-qualified legal professional, the majority of the time, the DWP is found to have wrongly imposed a sanction."

Equally, you can't claim that unchallenged sanctions are correct, for reasons I've highlighted numerous times.

The parallel with parking fines is a complete non-starter. Parking fines are imposed at a flat-rate and can universally be challenged.

Care to substantiate that last remark? Do you have any evidence to support your position? I believe that we've gotten to this stage because of a ruthless, class-based ideological agenda, not because people are unwilling to work.
You've stated yourself that only 15% of sanctions get overturned.
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Burridge
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#102
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#102
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You've stated yourself that only 15% of sanctions get overturned.
15% of the total number of sanctions imposed are overturned. Of independently challenged sanctions, the majority are overturned.

In reality, the percentage of wrongly imposed sanctions is likely to be more than 15% but less than 58%. The exact figure is impossible to prove.
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MatureStudent36
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#103
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#103
(Original post by Burridge)
15% of the total number of sanctions imposed are overturned. Of independently challenged sanctions, the majority are overturned.

In reality, the percentage of wrongly imposed sanctions is likely to be more than 15% but less than 58%. The exact figure is impossible to prove.
I don't doubt wrongly imposed sanctions are overturned.

I'm merely pointing out that of all sanctions imposed. Only 15% are overturned. That means that in the majority if the cases the sanctionee accepts the sanction.

I got caught speeding last year. I had the opportunity to appeal, but I was caught out bang to rights.
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Burridge
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#104
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#104
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I don't doubt wrongly imposed sanctions are overturned.

I'm merely pointing out that of all sanctions imposed. Only 15% are overturned. That means that in the majority if the cases the sanctionee accepts the sanction.

I got caught speeding last year. I had the opportunity to appeal, but I was caught out bang to rights.
:yawn:

When heard in front of an independent, legally-qualified professional, the ruling, more often than not, is that the a sanction has been wrong-fully imposed.

This isn't an unqualified JCP advisor, under pressure from his boss to meet targets or face the sack, looking at the case and deciding within two-minutes whether to sanction somebody or not. In reviews, it's a thorough and lengthy process; all evidence is independently assessed by a professional, who then makes a decision based on the facts of the case.

Again, faulty-logic. For the fourth time, just because a sanction isn't reviewed, it doesn't mean it's justified or accepted. The majority of sanctions cannot be reviewed, and of those that can, not all reviews will be pursued.

Much like the parking fine parallel, the speeding ticket comparison is silly. Speeding tickets are imposed at a flat-rate; every decision can be challenged; and are usually imposed based on objective facts (e.g a speed camera caught you travelling at a certain speed).

Cheers!
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MatureStudent36
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#105
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#105
(Original post by Burridge)
:yawn:

When heard in front of an independent, legally-qualified professional, the ruling, more often than not, is that the a sanction has been wrong-fully imposed.

This isn't an unqualified JCP advisor, under pressure from his boss to meet targets or face the sack, looking at the case and deciding within two-minutes whether to sanction somebody or not. In reviews, it's a thorough and lengthy process; all evidence is independently assessed by a professional, who then makes a decision based on the facts of the case.

Again, faulty-logic. For the fourth time, just because a sanction isn't reviewed, it doesn't mean it's justified or accepted. The majority of sanctions cannot be reviewed, and of those that can, not all reviews will be pursued.

Much like the parking fine parallel, the speeding ticket comparison is silly. Speeding tickets are imposed at a flat-rate; every decision can be challenged; and are usually imposed based on objective facts (e.g a speed camera caught you travelling at a certain speed).

Cheers!
15% of sanctions are not overturned.
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Burridge
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#106
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#106
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
15% of sanctions are not overturned.
15% of the total number of sanctions imposed are overturned. Of independently challenged sanctions, the majority are overturned.
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MatureStudent36
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#107
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#107
(Original post by Burridge)
15% of the total number of sanctions imposed are overturned. Of independently challenged sanctions, the majority are overturned.
I think you're making an assumption that sanctions that aren't appealed would have the same success rate rate.

So we're agreed that only 15% of sanctions are overturned?
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Burridge
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#108
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#108
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I think you're making an assumption that sanctions that aren't appealed would have the same success rate rate.

So we're agreed that only 15% of sanctions are overturned?
I haven't made that assumption. Again, care to quote me? Read my earlier post - I said that the number of wrongly imposed sanctions probably sits between 15% and 58%.

Whatever the figure, it calls into question the state of the JCP sanction process - record numbers (in the hundreds of thousands, potentially millions) of sanctions have been wrongly imposed. Record numbers are being overturned on appeal. That's far too many. These are people's livelihoods we're talking about. Why has the rate of review-overrulings nearly tripled in the past our years?
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MatureStudent36
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#109
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#109
(Original post by Burridge)
I haven't made that assumption. Again, care to quote me? Read my earlier post - I said that the number of wrongly imposed sanctions probably sits between 15% and 58%.

Whatever the figure, it calls into question the state of the JCP sanction process - record numbers (in the hundreds of thousands, potentially millions) of sanctions have been wrongly imposed. Record numbers are being overturned on appeal. That's far too many. These are people's livelihoods we're talking about. Why has the rate of review-overrulings nearly tripled in the past our years?
No. You've extrapolated the 58% from the appeals and assumed it applies to those who do t appeal.

All we know is that 15% of sanctions are appealed.
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Burridge
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#110
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#110
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
No. You've extrapolated the 58% from the appeals and assumed it applies to those who do t appeal.
When did I make that assumption? Prove it. Quote me.

I have never argued that 58% of all sanctions are wrongly imposed. For the fifth time: the real figure sits between 15% and 58%. The exact figure we will never know.

(Original post by MatureStudent36)
All we know is that 15% of sanctions are appealed.
Wrong. 27% of sanctions are appealed. 15% of the total number of sanctions are successfully appealed.

Jesus. And you're meant to be a 36-year-old student? :eek:
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MatureStudent36
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#111
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#111
(Original post by Burridge)
When did I make that assumption? Prove it. Quote me.

I have never argued that 58% of all sanctions are wrongly imposed. For the fifth time: the real figure sits between 15% and 58%. The exact figure we will never know.



Wrong. 27% of sanctions are appealed. 15% of the total number of sanctions are successfully appealed.

Jesus. And you're meant to be a 36-year-old student? :eek:
15% of sanctions are overturned
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Burridge
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#112
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#112
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
15% of sanctions are overturned
In the last post you claimed 15% were appealed, not overturned.

Yes, 15% of sanctions are overturned. More telling, however; the majority of appealed sanctions are overturned, which is far more worrying.
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MatureStudent36
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#113
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#113
(Original post by Burridge)
When did I make that assumption? Prove it. Quote me.

I have never argued that 58% of all sanctions are wrongly imposed. For the fifth time: the real figure sits between 15% and 58%. The exact figure we will never know.



Wrong. 27% of sanctions are appealed. 15% of the total number of sanctions are successfully appealed.

Jesus. And you're meant to be a 36-year-old student? :eek:
That's exactly what I've said.

Of all of the 1.2million sanctions imposed. Just under 15% are overturned.
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SophieSmall
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#114
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#114
(Original post by Burridge)
In the last post you claimed 15% were appealed, not overturned.

Yes, 15% of sanctions are overturned. More telling, however; the majority of appealed sanctions are overturned, which is far more worrying.
They'll say anything and ignore anything so as to not look wrong or ignorant.
I think the majority when given the figures can see just how broken and unfair the system is. But confirmation bias is all mature student needs. Who cares if they can't eat through no fault of their own so long as mature student doesn't look wrong
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Burridge
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#115
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#115
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
That's exactly what I've said.

Of all of the 1.2million sanctions imposed. Just under 15% are overturned.
And it's exactly what I've said too - in fact, it was me who actually provided you with the 15% figure because you couldn't be bothered bringing any evidence to the table (and you still can't).

You keep banding around the 15% figure as if it somehow validates your position - it doesn't. The 15% figure isn't an entirely accurate representation, for reasons I've outlined numerous times, which you have not yet addressed.

(Original post by SophieSmall)
They'll say anything and ignore anything so as to not look wrong or ignorant.
I think the majority when given the figures can see just how broken and unfair the system is. But confirmation bias is all mature student needs. Who cares if they can't eat through no fault of their own so long as mature student doesn't look wrong
Exactly. I'm yet to see him cite a single piece of evidence to support his position. It's quite embarrassing.
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SophieSmall
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#116
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#116
(Original post by Burridge)
And it's exactly what I've said too - in fact, it was me who actually provided you with the 15% figure because you couldn't be bothered bringing any evidence to the table (and you still can't).

You keep banding around the 15% figure as if it somehow validates your position - it doesn't. The 15% figure isn't an entirely accurate representation, for reasons I've outlined numerous times, which you have not yet addressed.



Exactly. I'm yet to see him cite a single piece of evidence to support his position. It's quite embarrassing.
I've asked him several times how it is about budgeting when sanctions are involved, he only responds that they shouldn't get sanctions.
Then you and I mentioned wrong sanctions, and now he is just arguing about figures. He has still yet to say what people are supposed to do when they get into these positions (through their own fault or not) other than go to food banks.
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MatureStudent36
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#117
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#117
(Original post by SophieSmall)
I've asked him several times how it is about budgeting when sanctions are involved, he only responds that they shouldn't get sanctions.
Then you and I mentioned wrong sanctions, and now he is just arguing about figures. He has still yet to say what people are supposed to do when they get into these positions (through their own fault or not) other than go to food banks.
Try doing what you're paid to do and don't invite sanctions in the first place?
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SophieSmall
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#118
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#118
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Try doing what you're paid to do and don't invite sanctions in the first place?
You're still ignoring the people who are wrongly sanctioned :rolleyes:
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MatureStudent36
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#119
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#119
(Original post by SophieSmall)
You're still ignoring the people who are wrongly sanctioned :rolleyes:
No I'm not.

In the majority of the case the right people are sanctioned for the right reasons.

In the minority if cases where by mistakes are made, I'm sure that lessons will be learnt by both sides.

It will be interesting to see these trends over time.
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SophieSmall
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#120
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#120
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
No I'm not.

In the majority of the case the right people are sanctioned for the right reasons.

In the minority if cases where by mistakes are made, I'm sure that lessons will be learnt by both sides.

It will be interesting to see these trends over time.
Yes you are, as I asked what are they supposed to do other than go to food banks (which is what this thread is about).

and clearly the job centre isn't learning from it considering that successful appeals are at an all time high.
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