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    imagine a world where liberals get what they want. where instead of going out during your break for a cigarette, you can go out and snort a line, plug some china white or chase the dragon.......................... ..
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    (Original post by ESPORTIVA)
    heroin and cocaine cant be legalised the same way cannabis can. The only option is complete access for everyone or what we have now where we supply weak opiates to low life failed abortions in an attempt to wean them off the drugs (at the taxpayers expense).

    The low life failed abortions end up just getting stronger stuff from street dealers instead.

    look at india where its freely available to everyone who wants it. COMPLETE DISASTER.
    Why are they the only options? If you want to turn it into a money debate then you're not going to win. You're the one absolutley insisting that a market worth billions of pounds per annum has to be an underground, untaxable black market. You're the one insisting that we spend billions of tax payers money finding, arresting, prosecuting and jailing people for personal choices that they make.

    You're also completely underestimating just how available drugs are in this country, you could order heroin from where you're sitting now and it'd be posted through your letter box on Tuesday morning, if you live in anything bigger than a small town then you could go out now and come back with some in less than a few hours.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Why are they the only options? If you want to turn it into a money debate then you're not going to win. You're the one absolutley insisting that a market worth billions of pounds per annum has to be an underground, untaxable black market. You're the one insisting that we spend billions of tax payers money finding, arresting, prosecuting and jailing people for personal choices that they make.

    You're also completely underestimating just how available drugs are in this country, you could order heroin from where you're sitting now and it'd be posted through your letter box on Tuesday morning, if you live in anything bigger than a small town then you could go out now and come back with some in less than a few hours.
    ok so what would your suggestion be? what should we do?

    and lol! only idiots use the silkroad.
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    (Original post by ESPORTIVA)
    imagine a world where liberals get what they want. where instead of going out during your break for a cigarette, you can go out and snort a line, plug some china white or chase the dragon.......................... ..
    Cigarettes kill 450,000 Americans a year, compared to around 15,000 from all illicit drugs combined (most of which are dangerous only because of the poor quality). Going purely off the numbers, this would actually be a marked improvement.
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    (Original post by ESPORTIVA)
    ok so what would your suggestion be? what should we do?

    and lol! only idiots use the silkroad.
    I'd make most drugs legal and have a regulated, safe market. More serious drugs I think would at first be prescribed to addicts, but I'd be open to listening to the evidence and seeing if there was a better way.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    I'd make most drugs legal and have a regulated, safe market. More serious drugs I think would at first be prescribed to addicts, but I'd be open to listening to the evidence and seeing if there was a better way.
    we already do that though. we give them prescription opiates.

    and what if all of a sudden i wanna try heroin? but i have to get a prescription!!???

    The street dealers will be there for me if i dont get my prescription

    I don't think whole prescriptions for addicts will work that well. Considering there will always be new low lives wanting to try it out.

    The only other option maybe complete availability everywhere for adults.............which could be disastrous.

    opiates are very very very dangerous, and should only really be taken if your are experiencing suicidal pain............recreational use always leads to addiction.

    head over to reddit.com/r/opiates if you wanna get an inside view of an opiate addicts lifestyle and how they got started.

    Have a chat with them if you want. its very intriguing
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    (Original post by ESPORTIVA)
    we already do that though. we give them prescription opiates.

    and what if all of a sudden i wanna try heroin? but i have to get a prescription!!???

    The street dealers will be there for me if i dont get my prescription

    I don't think whole prescriptions for addicts will work that well. Considering there will always be new low lives wanting to try it out.
    Which is why I said I'd listen to evidence rather than being painfully dogmatic and insisting that my way is the only way regardless of everything else.

    The methadone and subutex that we give to heroin addicts is also not the same as pescribing heroin. Sure they are opiods, but so is cocodamel and you can buy that from tesco.

    Giving heroin to heroin addicts also gives positive results pretty much every time it's been tried. As you can see we even used to do it in this country, but that was before uninformed people with the loudest voices started shouting the loudest (remind you of anyone?) and it came to an end.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Which is why I said I'd listen to evidence rather than being painfully dogmatic and insisting that my way is the only way regardless of everything else.

    The methadone and subutex that we give to heroin addicts is also not the same as pescribing heroin. Sure they are opiods, but so is cocodamel and you can buy that from tesco.

    Giving heroin to heroin addicts also gives positive results pretty much every time it's been tried. As you can see we even used to do it in this country, but that was before uninformed people with the loudest voices started shouting the loudest (remind you of anyone?) and it came to an end.
    Read my post again i added more points to it.

    my main point is currently the people who use opiates and screw up their lives (most of them) should receive no help.

    its 2015. the consequences are well documented yet people still do it because "its muh body i do whats i wants!"

    go ask those guys on reddit.com/r/opiates if they regret ever starting. I guarantee most will say yes.

    opiates cannot be recreationally used like cannabis. we will never get true "legalization" of opiates and other harder drugs

    so stopping people from using it in the first place may be the only sensible option (MAY, being the key word here)
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    (Original post by ESPORTIVA)
    Read my post again i added more points to it.

    my main point is currently the people who use opiates and screw up their lives (most of them) should receive no help.

    its 2015. the consequences are well documented yet people still do it because "its muh body i do whats i wants!"

    go ask those guys on reddit.com/r/opiates if they regret ever starting. I guarantee most will say yes.

    opiates cannot be recreationally used like cannabis. we will never get true "legalization" of opiates and other harder drugs

    so stopping people from using it in the first place may be the only sensible option (MAY, being the key word here)
    I'm afriad your post is once again devoid of any reality or factual basis. Even if you don't want to help these people based on some deeply unpleasent ideology, helping them is far better for the tax payer and it's far better for the communities where these people live. By refusing to help them and instead criminalising you are punishing not only them, but everyone around them and more generally the entire country.

    How many people on /r/opiates did prohibition stop from taking opiates? The answer is zero. So how is it the sensible option when we're been trying it for a hundred odd years and the outcome has been absolutley appaling for everyone involved both directly and indirectly? Where is the sense in this?

    All you have is a deeply ingrained, dogmatic belief that drug users must be punished and are completely indifferent to all the negative effects that has on people.

    Here's another subreddit for you to check out.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    I'm afriad your post is once again devoid of any reality or factual basis. Even if you don't want to help these people based on some deeply unpleasent ideology, helping them is far better for the tax payer and it's far better for the communities where these people live. By refusing to help them and instead criminalising you are punishing not only them, but everyone around them and more generally the entire country.

    How many people on /r/opiates did prohibition stop from taking opiates? The answer is zero. So how is it the sensible option when we're been trying it for a hundred odd years and the outcome has been absolutley appaling for everyone involved both directly and indirectly? Where is the sense in this?

    All you have is a deeply ingrained, dogmatic belief that drug users must be punished and are completely indifferent to all the negative effects that has on people.

    Here's another subreddit for you to check out.
    read my earliest posts and you'll see i was at one point the most vocal person on this entire site when it came to the anti-prohibition and pro-legalization view.

    i kept slamming prohibitionist with every post until i started to realise that legalization is never going to happen. and from an interview with the former mexican president who slammed western drug users for carelessly buying drugs without a second thought about where their money is heading and what it is being used for.

    The fact that people purchasing hard drugs are one of the main contributors to the slaughter in mexico. They buy more drugs so the cartels fight for access points in northern mexico killing anyone who gets in their way. just so they can get their drugs to the users, who send money back to them.

    I CANNOT CONDONE THAT. I'm sorry liberals, I just can't. and i get called a monster for believing that!

    The same way buying slaves and sex slaves from slavers contributes to the to the massive slave trade of today (or are the people who purchase slaves free of guilt here?)

    The same way people who purchase various types of animal tusks and body parts contribute and encourage poachers to go out and slaughter many animals (or are the buyers free of guilt here?)

    Its all simple supply and demand

    yeah you can apply this to anything in life, but still it doesn't change the fact that western drug use has contributed to this slaughter (most if not all), and yes I know the government are to blame too for handing the drug trade to criminals, but so are the users for handing their money to criminals!

    now tell me this: would you purchase heroin which comes from a islamic terrorist organisation? The money gained from the purchase will be used to fund further terrorist activities. (the taliban used to do this, or still do?)

    you wouldn't dare buy it from them. But why is it okay to purchase drugs from the drug cartels?

    don't ignore me on that like every other liberal here, i really wanna hear your opinion on the matter (im serious).

    INB4 nike shoes, levi jeans, rolex watches and colourful swatches...............
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    I don't think the very addictive drugs like heroin and meth should be legalised. But soft drugs like cannabis and khat should be fully legal, and the harder "non-addictive drugs" like MDMA, cocaine, acid, and stuff to be decriminalised.


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    (Original post by ESPORTIVA)
    read my earliest posts and you'll see i was at one point the most vocal person on this entire site when it came to the anti-prohibition and pro-legalization view.

    i kept slamming prohibitionist with every post until i started to realise that legalization is never going to happen. and from an interview with the former mexican president who slammed western drug users for carelessly buying drugs without a second thought about where their money is heading and what it is being used for.

    The fact that people purchasing hard drugs are one of the main contributors to the slaughter in mexico. They buy more drugs so the cartels fight for access points in northern mexico killing anyone who gets in their way. just so they can get their drugs to the users, who send money back to them.

    I CANNOT CONDONE THAT. I'm sorry liberals, I just can't. and i get called a monster for believing that!

    The same way buying slaves and sex slaves from slavers contributes to the to the massive slave trade of today (or are the people who purchase slaves free of guilt here?)

    The same way people who purchase various types of animal tusks and body parts contribute and encourage poachers to go out and slaughter many animals (or are the buyers free of guilt here?)

    Its all simple supply and demand

    yeah you can apply this to anything in life, but still it doesn't change the fact that western drug use has contributed to this slaughter (most if not all), and yes I know the government are to blame too for handing the drug trade to criminals, but so are the users for handing their money to criminals!

    now tell me this: would you purchase heroin which comes from a islamic terrorist organisation? The money gained from the purchase will be used to fund further terrorist activities. (the taliban used to do this, or still do?)

    you wouldn't dare buy it from them. But why is it okay to purchase drugs from the drug cartels?

    don't ignore me on that like every other liberal here, i really wanna hear your opinion on the matter (im serious).

    INB4 nike shoes, levi jeans, rolex watches and colourful swatches...............
    Why do you think ending prohibition is impossible yet completely fail to grasp that ending demand for a product is actually completley impossible? Why is prohibition, something that has existed for about 100 years out of the 100000's of thousands of years of our existence impossible to end?

    There is nothing evil about a poppy flower. There is nothing evil about a coca leaf. Once you accept the concrete fact that you cannot eliminate demand by telling people they can't do something, the only decision you have left is deciding on how you will supply that demand. Your solution is that you want the supply to be controlled by murderous drug cartels and drug gangs. My solution is that I want it to be supplied by regulated companies.

    Also, IS aren't in the heroin business. They are in the oil business. Do you have a car? Why do you have a car? Don't you know that you're directly responsible for Alan Henning being beheaded because you demanded oil? Stop funding IS.

    Now as you refuse to refute any of the points I make and instead just keep moving the goalposts, and as I'm sure I've had this very debate about drug cartels and the culpability of drug users on here before with you, unless I see a compleing reason this will probably be my last post.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...began-die.html

    So my parents took great care to ensure i did not embark on a drug-fuelled lifestyle. This unfortunate young lady met her death due to her Dad's encouragement to take drugs.
    To outright say drugs are bad, which is the message of the story, is wrong. How do you even know that article is telling you the truth of what happened, you weren't there.
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    (Original post by DaveSmith99)
    Why do you think ending prohibition is impossible yet completely fail to grasp that ending demand for a product is actually completley impossible? Why is prohibition, something that has existed for about 100 years out of the 100000's of thousands of years of our existence impossible to end?

    There is nothing evil about a poppy flower. There is nothing evil about a coca leaf. Once you accept the concrete fact that you cannot eliminate demand by telling people they can't do something, the only decision you have left is deciding on how you will supply that demand. Your solution is that you want the supply to be controlled by murderous drug cartels and drug gangs. My solution is that I want it to be supplied by regulated companies.

    Also, IS aren't in the heroin business. They are in the oil business. Do you have a car? Why do you have a car? Don't you know that you're directly responsible for Alan Henning being beheaded because you demanded oil? Stop funding IS.

    Now as you refuse to refute any of the points I make and instead just keep moving the goalposts, and as I'm sure I've had this very debate about drug cartels and the culpability of drug users on here before with you, unless I see a compleing reason this will probably be my last post.
    did i say the poppy flower is evil? NO

    did i say the coca leaf is evil? NO

    learn how to read. heres a book to get your started:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Kids-B...ding+kids+book

    I said the taliban sold heroin, WHICH THEY DID: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...cy-817230.html

    anyone who bought their heroin actively funded their terrorist activities. i call them co-conspirators

    The whole ISIS oil debacle was recently debunked by german intelligence so you fail there.

    But it doesn't change the fact that purchasing drugs from the mexican drug cartels is wrong and evil. you dont think that. you think its noble. you are evil

    learn about supply and demand, here this should help you get started:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Economics-Du...nd+for+dummies

    You are the one who keeps dodging every single one of my questions and points. you haven't even read my post properly, typical dogmatic liberal hell bent on drugs, i bet you're high on heroin right now.

    Don't cry homie. Its only the internet, which leads me to my next point, people like you don't do anything to help your cause.

    You are exactly like me when i first started on this site. All talk no action. If you truly believed in legalisation you would be out there actively combating Prohibition, instead of sitting in your room, high on heroin.

    You guys don't care about legalisation, you just wanna get your fix.
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    (Original post by Asklepios)
    I don't think the very addictive drugs like heroin and meth should be legalised. But soft drugs like cannabis and khat should be fully legal, and the harder "non-addictive drugs" like MDMA, cocaine, acid, and stuff to be decriminalised.


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    I'm not sure you know what you're talking about because, well, there are inconsistencies in your comment. Cocaine is addictive. Depends on your definition of hard but MDMA and LSD aren't hard.
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    (Original post by alexs2602)
    I'm not sure you know what you're talking about because, well, there are inconsistencies in your comment. Cocaine is addictive. Depends on your definition of hard but MDMA and LSD aren't hard.
    Under Dutch law (which makes such distinctions) mdma and LSD are considered hard drugs, but personally I would say they're between weed and heroin in "hardness." So maybe moderately hard. Coke is addictive but less so than heroin or meth.




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    (Original post by Asklepios)
    Under Dutch law (which makes such distinctions) mdma and LSD are considered hard drugs, but personally I would say they're between weed and heroin in "hardness." So maybe moderately hard. Coke is addictive but less so than heroin or meth.




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    Scientifically speaking they're not hard. LSD has no reported deaths. MDMA is less dangerous than horse riding, alcohol.

    Laws don't mean a huge amount really, believe it or not. Politicians don't listen to science a lot and respond to media frenzy.
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    (Original post by alexs2602)
    Scientifically speaking they're not hard. LSD has no reported deaths. MDMA is less dangerous than horse riding, alcohol.

    Laws don't mean a huge amount really, believe it or not. Politicians don't listen to science a lot and respond to media frenzy.
    I know, but physical harm isn't the only thing we have to consider. What about how much it changes your perceptions? E.g. LSD might be safer than alcohol, but it's sure a hell of a lot scarier.
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    (Original post by Asklepios)
    I know, but physical harm isn't the only thing we have to consider. What about how much it changes your perceptions? E.g. LSD might be safer than alcohol, but it's sure a hell of a lot scarier.
    That's arguable. What evidence do you have to support that? You may have a point but there's a hell of a lot of propaganda against every illegal drug so you're going to have to elaborate rather than expect us to accept your perspective as gospel.
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    (Original post by alexs2602)
    That's arguable. What evidence do you have to support that? You may have a point but there's a hell of a lot of propaganda against every illegal drug so you're going to have to elaborate rather than expect us to accept your perspective as gospel.
    This is what I've heard from friends who've tried both


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