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Nicola Sturgeon says the SNP will vote on English laws Watch

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    (Original post by L i b)
    Why not? After 1997, the opponents of devolution accepted the settled will of the Scottish people. Why don't Scottish nationalists do likewise?

    The purpose of referendums is to settle an issue. It is referring it to the people to make a final judgement. That's happened.
    Mmm hmm, and what about the devolution referendum in 1977? If that was that issue settled, why do we have devolution now?


    The great problem with the health spending argument is that the SNP has cut health spending in real terms in Scotland, after having pledged to protect it. Meanwhile the Conservatives pledged to protect it in England, did so, and Scotland received Barnett consequentials from that decision.
    I've made it pretty clear I was talking about the principle, rather than any particular example. Health is just an easy example because it's one of the main devolved matters.

    Do you have an issue with the principle or will you just continue playing the man like the other unionists?
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    English votes for english laws is needed, and if the budget was changed from barnett formula to be need based it would easily solve the issues of cutting of the NHS budget in one country, etc.

    I do also fear further devolution will also badly effect North east England, EG Air duty.
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    (Original post by Gordon1985)
    Mmm hmm, and what about the devolution referendum in 1977? If that was that issue settled, why do we have devolution now?
    Fine, I admit my point doesn't extend indefinitely. If you want to debate it again twenty years from now, I'll be more comfortable with that.

    I've made it pretty clear I was talking about the principle, rather than any particular example. Health is just an easy example because it's one of the main devolved matters.

    Do you have an issue with the principle or will you just continue playing the man like the other unionists?
    I think linking health expenditure to Westminster is quite bizarre when it's clear that the SNP is cutting it, and it's going up in England. Rather undermines the argument really.

    But of course, the SNP could raise health spending too, if they so wished. To fund it they would have to either (a) take money from other areas; (b) raise taxes or (c) borrow. Holyrood has always had the power to do (a) and (b); it receives proper borrowing powers to do (c) under the Scotland Act 2012 from April this year, and fully intends to max out that borrowing.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    An NI number is an identification number with address and other data.

    How does it integrate with the immigration authorities? (I assume you mean the Border Force and UK Visas and Immigration - both parts of HMG) Who has paid for that integration - the Scottish Government?
    It's not integrating the database, it's that UK Visas and Immigration will be able to make requests for information from their system.

    How do you use it at the Royal Botanical Gardens of Edinburgh? My mum is coming to Edinburgh from Cambridgeshire in March, neither of us have a card - won't we be able to get in for £4 (concession) using my NUS card and her driving licence?
    It's not a matter of "how do you use it" - we cannot. The Royal Botanical Gardens, however, can - by dint of being one of the enormous list of public bodies included in the Scottish Government's proposals who they believe should be allowed to access this information.

    The legitimate question here is how will they use it?

    Its not integrated with HMRC/DWP. The NI number is far more all encompassing isn't it?
    Actually HMRC is to have access under the proposals.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Thanks for highlighting the snp and its supporters are rather narrow minded individuals.
    Quite a big generalization there.
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Quite a big generalization there.
    I've yet to be convinced otherwise.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    I've yet to be convinced otherwise.
    Where are you from?

    Do you know SNP members or do you base this assertion on this forum?

    I am not in the SNP personally but I find it crazy to tarnish over 100,000 people as "rather narrow minded individuals"
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Where are you from?

    Do you know SNP members or do you base this assertion on this forum?

    I am not in the SNP personally but I find it crazy to tarnish over 100,000 people as "rather narrow minded individuals"
    Almost by definition they want to narrow thinking to be about Scotland rather than the UK.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    Almost by definition they want to narrow thinking to be about Scotland rather than the UK.
    There is nothing narrow about believing Scotland should be an independent country. Sure, some of them were shall we say "nationalists" who disliked English people but this is a minority from my experience.
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    There is nothing narrow about believing Scotland should be an independent country. Sure, some of them were shall we say "nationalists" who disliked English people but this is a minority from my experience.
    It's a narrower, more parochial policy. Just as is UKIP wanting to leave the EU. Not saying that's wrong, but it is more narrowly minded.
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    I disagreeew
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Where are you from?

    Do you know SNP members or do you base this assertion on this forum?

    I am not in the SNP personally but I find it crazy to tarnish over 100,000 people as "rather narrow minded individuals"
    I know very few SNP supporters personally (one or two) and I wouldn't like to judge them from their internet presence (although that judgement would be very negative, it's true of many groups where I know it isn't representative).

    What has filtered through, though, is how empty their proposals are. I actually could have respected a bluntly nationalist movement a lot more. But most of what they said during the independence referendum was that all the old institutions would continue to work to benefit them, they'd just stop giving anything back, making them better off on net.

    Firstly, if you swallow that as a set of factual claims, I've got a bridge to sell you. But secondly and more importantly, if that's your idea of morality, then I'm really just flabbergasted. There seems to be little or no philosophical content of Scottish Nationalism beyond, "I'm alright Jack!". There are a couple of exceptions like Tommy Sheridan, who seem to really believe in something (even if it's something I strongly disagree with) but they seem to be few and far between and have little influence in the movement. It all comes across like a set of people with a greatly exaggerated sense of their own importance wanting to live better at the expense of others.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I know very few SNP supporters personally (one or two) and I wouldn't like to judge them from their internet presence (although that judgement would be very negative, it's true of many groups where I know it isn't representative).

    What has filtered through, though, is how empty their proposals are. I actually could have respected a bluntly nationalist movement a lot more. But most of what they said during the independence referendum was that all the old institutions would continue to work to benefit them, they'd just stop giving anything back, making them better off on net.

    Firstly, if you swallow that as a set of factual claims, I've got a bridge to sell you. But secondly and more importantly, if that's your idea of morality, then I'm really just flabbergasted. There seems to be little or no philosophical content of Scottish Nationalism beyond, "I'm alright Jack!". There are a couple of exceptions like Tommy Sheridan, who seem to really believe in something (even if it's something I strongly disagree with) but they seem to be few and far between and have little influence in the movement. It all comes across like a set of people with a greatly exaggerated sense of their own importance wanting to live better at the expense of others.
    Firstly, most people who support independence from my experience believed that Scotland would be a better society.

    I don't swallow anything, I just said I am not in the SNP and have never voted for the SNP.

    Again, there is nothing wrong with people wanting to run their own affairs.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    It's a narrower, more parochial policy. Just as is UKIP wanting to leave the EU. Not saying that's wrong, but it is more narrowly minded.
    Lol
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Firstly, most people who support independence from my experience believed that Scotland would be a better society.
    Yet when pressed on any specifics they seem to want that society to remain exactly the same as it is now.

    I don't swallow anything, I just said I am not in the SNP and have never voted for the SNP.
    I didn't mean to refer to you personally; I don't know what you believe.

    Again, there is nothing wrong with people wanting to run their own affairs.
    In principle. However, as the Americans said in their Declaration of Independence, "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes". In the case of Scots' nationalists, what is the "necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government"? Most of their time and effort in the referendum debate was spent arguing (in my view mostly wrongly) that the most important institutions of state wouldn't change at all! Scottish Nationalism seems to be an ideology of "light and transient causes".
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Yet when pressed on any specifics they seem to want that society to remain exactly the same as it is now.


    I didn't mean to refer to you personally; I don't know what you believe.


    In principle. However, as the Americans said in their Declaration of Independence, "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes". In the case of Scots' nationalists, what is the "necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government"? Most of their time and effort in the referendum debate was spent arguing (in my view mostly wrongly) that the most important institutions of state wouldn't change at all! Scottish Nationalism seems to be an ideology of "light and transient causes".
    Not from my experience. They want a change fundamentally towards a fairer society.

    I didn't mean to refer to you personally; I don't know what you believe.

    You still generalize a lot people

    Which is the exact reason why it is wrong to tarnish all people in the SNP with the same brush. I am in the SWP and voted for independence simply for the reason that I thought Scotland would move towards a more socialist type of society. I don't want to keep the queen, the pound, to stay in Nato etc. There are some Scottish nationalists but this is not the same thing as people who supported independence.
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Not from my experience. They want a change fundamentally towards a fairer society.

    I didn't mean to refer to you personally; I don't know what you believe.

    You still generalize a lot people

    Which is the exact reason why it is wrong to tarnish all people in the SNP with the same brush. I am in the SWP and voted for independence simply for the reason that I thought Scotland would move towards a more socialist type of society. I don't want to keep the queen, the pound, to stay in Nato etc. There are some Scottish nationalists but this is not the same thing as people who supported independence.
    Then you seem to be in the same sort of group as Tommy Sheridan - who I agree has a real ideology and reason for wanting independence, even though I don't agree with those reasons themselves.

    Problem is that what you want has got little or nothing to do with what the SNP argued or what the broader Yes campaign argued. Most people don't want to leave NATO, abolish the monarchy, leave/go deeper into the EU (can't tell if your comment on the pound means you favour an independent currency, or the Euro). Salmond (rightly) regarded any concession like that as a poisoned chalice to his campaign and vehemently denied that any of those things would happen.

    On at least the EU and pound questions, he was almost certainly wrong. But that's by the by. In his pursuit of a 'big tent' independence movement - which you'll have noticed still failed to reach a majority - he was forced to jettison pretty much any ideological content of the independence campaign.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Then you seem to be in the same sort of group as Tommy Sheridan - who I agree has a real ideology and reason for wanting independence, even though I don't agree with those reasons themselves.

    Problem is that what you want has got little or nothing to do with what the SNP argued or what the broader Yes campaign argued. Most people don't want to leave NATO, abolish the monarchy, leave/go deeper into the EU (can't tell if your comment on the pound means you favour an independent currency, or the Euro). Salmond (rightly) regarded any concession like that as a poisoned chalice to his campaign and vehemently denied that any of those things would happen.

    On at least the EU and pound questions, he was almost certainly wrong. But that's by the by. In his pursuit of a 'big tent' independence movement - which you'll have noticed still failed to reach a majority - he was forced to jettison pretty much any ideological content of the independence campaign.
    Nah I disagree. I know a lot of people even though I live abroad at the moment who are going to vote the SNP / have joined the SNP since the referendum. Most of those people would not describe themselves as Nationalists but joined / will vote snp because they think that will be the best chance for Scottish independence. It would have been a majority had their been fair media coverage in my opinion
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    (Original post by King Kebab)
    Not from my experience. They want a change fundamentally towards a fairer society.
    What they were selling was as close to identical to what we already have as possible. The only difference I could see was that there would be a border (but an open one, so things wouldn't be any different to how they are now) between Scotland and England and the politicians in charge would be based in Holyrood rather than Westminster.

    It was about nationalism - division and power - rather than a fundamentally fairer society.
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    (Original post by Smack)
    What they were selling was as close to identical to what we already have as possible. The only difference I could see was that there would be a border (but an open one, so things wouldn't be any different to how they are now) between Scotland and England and the politicians in charge would be based in Holyrood rather than Westminster.

    It was about nationalism - division and power - rather than a fundamentally fairer society.
    And the ability to have no limit on public policy changes in the future.
 
 
 
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