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    (Original post by unprinted)
    Lots of them. I am shocked by the number here who think asking 'wanna ****?' is too difficult a thing to do before sticking their penis in someone.



    "Although it is men who perpetrate rape, it is women who are urged to modify their behaviour by abstaining or drinking less, and thus accommodate the danger posed by predatory men."
    And how would you prove that you asked and she said yes in court?

    Us guys better start carrying a written contract, a camera and a copy of the day's newspaper with us just in case.
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    Taking away the raping of men from the equation. I think that being falsely accused of rape is the worst a man can come to experiencing such an horrendous act as rape itself.

    I've known a friend who was falsely accused of rape. And it damn near broke him. I'm serious, he became a total shell of himself until he was cleared, he wouldnt go out, he wouldnt talk to anyone, he lost his job, his confidence and his self respect.
    Why are we taking away the reality of men being raped, that makes no sense. Men can be raped, there is no need to say 'this is the closest thing for a man to actual rape' when we can actually suffer rape...

    Anyway; it is absolutely awful and you should have every opportunity to prove your innocence. However, speaking as a man, I would rather live in a world in which I could be falsely accused of rape than one in which it was considered legally permissable to force yourself upon someone that has no reasonable means of refusing/stopping you/in the absence of consent.

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    (Original post by unprinted)
    And a quick search on somewhere like the BBC news website will show that they are.
    Good.

    There was really no need for your response to be quite so bitter, either.
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    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    Are you real? Having your body violated by a man is far worse than being accused of doing so. Granted the latter is horrendous too and anybody who makes false claims should be given prison time.
    I would rather be raped by a man than be false accused of raping a women, going to jail and generally have my life ruined and have people think I am a rapist when I didn't do anything wrong. Being raped would be horribly and emotionally scaring. BUt I would rather have people's sympathy as a victim than face the emotional scaring of being treated as an abuser by society.



    @OP

    What does this actually mean though? Is it being taken out of context? If lack of evidence supporting the accused case for gaining consent is not found does this mean he(or she) will be found guilty of not gaining consent? If so that is a blatant abuse of innocent until proven guilty concept that underpins our justice system.

    Does this mean that if a drunk girl came onto me and started kissing me and genuinely being positive towards me like undressing me and I then start engaging in sexual activity with her does that mean I will be technically be raping her as she is drunk so can not consent and she didn't specifically say "Chaoticbutterfly I want to have sex with you"?

    Also what happens if I am drunk? Also whenever I am drunk I stil hold myself responsible for my actions. It isn't my fault if a girl wakes up and then regrets having sex with me. Just as it isn't her fault if I regret having sex with her the next day. There was still consent at the time. Also what happens if I am drunk as well? Why does that not absolve me of my lack of judgement in being absolutely 100% sure she definitly wants to have sex with me (which I probably would do anyway as I worry about everything)? Intent is important when it comes to judging someone. If a rapist genuinely thought he was not raping her and had her consent he is not on the same scale as a rapist who new full well what he was doing.
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    You and I have had this argument elsewhere and we don't need to have it again.

    You can accidentally kill someone, but you can't accidentally stick your penis in them. The nuances of just how badly you behaved when sticking your penis in someone without a reasonable belief in their consent is dealt with perfectly adequately by the sentencing guidelines.
    Don't say we don't need to have it again and then say something you know I'll argue back against.

    Like I said before you can reasonably believe a woman is consenting and she later be found to drunk to have reasonably consented. The subjective element of the test is simply did you believe the complainant had consented, you can say yes or no but when it comes to assessing whether it's reasonable or not the second half of the test is completely objective and what's reasonable is incredibly difficult to ascertain


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    (Original post by unprinted)
    I'd rather live in a society where women can be passed out drunk without any harm coming to them than one that goes 'Well, what did they expect?'
    I'd rather live in a society where the law took a consistent approach to someone's actions when they're drunk



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    (Original post by Josh93)
    Given the choice, would you prefer to be raped or accused of rape?
    I think it's a fairly simple conclusion for most people - and it's worth noting that men can be victims as well as perpetrators.
    Don't know what the 'fairly simple conclusion' is 'for most people' but I'd rather be raped than be accused of rape.
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    (Original post by jf1994)
    What a ****ing travesty :L

    I'm glad I don't sleep around, I'd be ****ting myself 24/7 that some girl I nailed got jealous and decided to stitch me up...
    You wife can also cry rape, too.

    Also, there have been many cases where men got accused without having ever met the women.
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    Taking away the raping of men from the equation. I think that being falsely accused of rape is the worst a man can come to experiencing such an horrendous act as rape itself.

    I've known a friend who was falsely accused of rape. And it damn near broke him. I'm serious, he became a total shell of himself until he was cleared, he wouldnt go out, he wouldnt talk to anyone, he lost his job, his confidence and his self respect.
    That may be true and he has my every sympathy, but it's not the same as your body being entered by a stranger or somebody you don't want to (and possibly ejaculating into you in the case of male rapists). And for female rape victims, there's also the risk of pregnancy. And diseases for both genders.
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    (Original post by Hal.E.Lujah)
    I think the Ched Evans one would be a pretty prolific example of an accident; girl takes cocaine and gets drunk, goes to a hotel room and horny men she goes there with have sex. She wakes up full of regret and decides sober her wouldnt have given consent to what intoxicated her did; Rape.
    Alas that's only an example of a fairy story, because so little of that happened. Specifically...

    .. there is no evidence that she took cocaine that night. (Even if she did, so what?)

    .. she only went to the room with McDonald. Evans turned up later, uninvited, unexpected and unwanted. (McDonald didn't hang around long after Evans burst in!)

    .. she woke up in a urine-soaked bed, not having not woken up when she wet herself while unconscious, not remembering anything that happened from over an hour before she arrived in the room. (She still doesn't.)

    .. because that included not knowing where her handbag was - she was so drunk that night, she had left her handbag with all her stuff behind in the kebab shop before she "literally stumbled" into McDonald outside - she went to the police about that.

    .. as part of their investigation, the police discovered both McDonald and Evans had had sex with her. Given her obvious state of intoxication that night - every independent witness described her as "extremely drunk" - they were charged with rape.

    .. McDonald is able to raise a reasonable doubt about the case against him: he may have had a reasonable belief in her consent, but Evans is not, not least because of things like both men giving evidence that they didn't ask her if she wanted to have sex with the stranger who'd just turned up, and no-one hearing the loud cries he claimed she made despite at least three people being in a position to hear them.
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    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    Are you real? Having your body violated by a man is far worse than being accused of doing so. Granted the latter is horrendous too and anybody who makes false claims should be given prison time.
    Being accused of rape is a lot worse than having my body violated by anyone.

    In the best scenarios:

    Being raped - No STD, no bodily harm, feeling upset, feeling angry.
    But how you feel depends on how you approach the incident. You can change it.

    Being accused of rape - No jail time, proven innocent, feeling upset, feeling angry.
    But people around you will alienate you because they think 'no smoke without fire', future employers will not hire you because they are afraid of it being true, no chance for you to work in certain places like schools because parents will definitely complain. No matter how you approach the incident, the consequence is not something you can control.

    In the worst scenarios:

    Being raped - STD + broken arm/leg/whatever.
    You will have sympathy from others and will be compensated if it's this bad.
    STD + no permanent bodily harm but people don't believe you.
    You can still get yourself treated and have a life. In this scenario, it's one illness plus the best scenario of being accused of rape above.

    Being accused -
    You will be killed because people hate you.
    You will be raped in jail.
    You will spend a lot of time in jail despite being innocent.

    ---

    It's quite clear to me which one is worse. If you're raped, there's still chance to turn your life around and there are a lot fewer consequences you cannot control; if you're being accused of rape, there's no chance to recover from it and the consequences are uncontrollable.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    To quote the sexual offences act 2003:



    So the defendant has to reasonably believe that the plaintiff consented. The guidelines seem to make it clearer that the defendant has to justify that belief. He can't just say "I assumed she consented" based on nothing. I don't know if that was ever the case in court though.
    That 'reasonable belief' part doesn't mean the defendant has to show that he had a belief that she consented and was reasonable in having that belief. It means that the prosecution have to show that, under the circumstances and considering all the facts, a hypothetical reasonable person could not have believed that consent was being given.
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    (Original post by Josh93)
    Why are we taking away the reality of men being raped, that makes no sense. Men can be raped, there is no need to say 'this is the closest thing for a man to actual rape' when we can actually suffer rape...
    For that point I took it away in order to emphasise how brutal a false rape allegation can be.

    (Original post by All_TheCyanide)
    That may be true and he has my every sympathy, but it's not the same as your body being entered by a stranger or somebody you don't want to (and possibly ejaculating into you in the case of male rapists). And for female rape victims, there's also the risk of pregnancy. And diseases for both genders.
    Ok, I agree to that point then leave the male rape issue in there and aside from pregnancy a male victim of rape could very well go through the same thing.
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    (Original post by clh_hilary)
    Being accused of rape is a lot worse than having my body violated by anyone.

    In the best scenarios:

    Being raped - No STD, no bodily harm, feeling upset, feeling angry.
    But how you feel depends on how you approach the incident. You can change it.

    Being accused of rape - No jail time, proven innocent, feeling upset, feeling angry.
    But people around you will alienate you because they think 'no smoke without fire', future employers will not hire you because they are afraid of it being true, no chance for you to work in certain places like schools because parents will definitely complain. No matter how you approach the incident, the consequence is not something you can control.

    In the worst scenarios:

    Being raped - STD + broken arm/leg/whatever.
    You will have sympathy from others and will be compensated if it's this bad.
    STD + no permanent bodily harm but people don't believe you.
    You can still get yourself treated and have a life. In this scenario, it's one illness plus the best scenario of being accused of rape above.

    Being accused -
    You will be killed because people hate you.
    You will be raped in jail.
    You will spend a lot of time in jail despite being innocent.

    ---

    It's quite clear to me which one is worse. If you're raped, there's still chance to turn your life around and there are a lot fewer consequences you cannot control; if you're being accused of rape, there's no chance to recover from it and the consequences are uncontrollable.
    You're looking at it in a very black and white way. You don't consider that pregnancy is an issue for women (and some women aren't allowed contraceptives/ would find it difficult to obtain them without telling someone, which they might not be ready to do).

    There's also blame culture. What was she wearing etc. and some religions shun raped women and deny that men can be raped at all
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    (Original post by Lord Baelish)
    Talk about being a pedant. The fact remains there was a reverse burden of proof enforced because he had admitted to having sex with her. The onus was on him, not the prosecution.
    That's not a reverse burden of proof! He didn't have to prove reasonable belief to either the criminal ('beyond a reasonable doubt') or civil ('on the balance of probabilities') level, merely raise a reasonable doubt about the prosecution case's that he didn't have one: that he 'may' have had it would have been enough. He didn't even have to raise that doubt in the minds of the whole jury: just three out of the twelve would have been sufficient for him not to be convicted.

    (Had she been proved to have passed out before he finished having sex with her, he would have been in a different position.)

    Do you agree that the onus should be on him to prove he had reasonable belief in her consent or do you belief it should be on the prosecution to prove that he didn't?
    The prosecution had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she lacked the capacity to consent and had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not have a reasonable belief in her consent.

    They did that for Evans - to the satisfaction of every single person on the jury - but failed on the second one for McDonald. (It turned out that every single person in the jury agreed with McDonald's verdict too.)
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    One of the bigger issues when it comes to this is the media branding the accused as a rapist. Even if they stick an 'alleged' on the front of it, that still leads to assumptions by the public. :yes:

    If the accused is then cleared of rape, it's very hard to then shake the image off even if cleared. Which isn't great at all and ruins lives. Maybe there should be a blanket ban on media reporting names and addresses until the trial has reached a conclusion?

    Agree with what Hal was saying too.
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    (Original post by clh_hilary)
    Being accused of rape is a lot worse than having my body violated by anyone.
    I think it's great that a man who's never been raped can say that being accused of rape is far worse.
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    My thoughts:

    1) There should be anonymity for people accused of rape, up until they are convicted. Otherwise they get the rapist stigma attached to them for nothing more than an allegation
    2) There needs to be a re-classification for 'ambiguous consent' cases, where a party is too drunk to consent, and 'physical assault' cases of rape, where a person forces themselves bodily onto another.

    Currently, both cases go under the umbrella term of 'rape', which is now too all-encompassing. Someone who has sex with a drunken girl after a night out is tarred with the same brush as a person who physically assaulted someone in an alley. That is just not accurate, and just not right.
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    I think it's great that a man who's never been raped can say that being accused of rape is far worse.
    Let's not play the 'you have no experience so you're opinion is invalid' card. They could easily say the same, but vice versa ie you haven't been accused of rape so you have no idea how damaging it is.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    That 'reasonable belief' part doesn't mean the defendant has to show that he had a belief that she consented and was reasonable in having that belief. It means that the prosecution have to show that, under the circumstances and considering all the facts, a hypothetical reasonable person could not have believed that consent was being given.
    Sounds like 2 sides of the same coin to me.

    The CPS says to interpret the law you ask 2 questions:

    1. Did the defendant believe the complainant consented?
    2. If so, did the defendant reasonably believe it? It will be for the jury to decide if his or her belief was reasonable
 
 
 
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