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    (Original post by rufflin)
    This is the entire argument of freedom of choice/destiny all over again. I see your point, but the thing is that whatever we feel like we have the 'choice' to do, it was going to happen anyway.

    Used in an exam context really tones down the level of hypocrisy, for example yeah if I don't study for one exam, it was the will of God and it's not my fault, but the consequence of failing an exam doesn't lead to eternal torture in hellfire. However, put in the context of a person who dies Christian, regardless of all the 'choices' they may have had, in the end God decided that he was not going to believe in Islam, and therefore he would be in hell-fire eternally.
    Yep, I understand...
    "It was going to happen anyway"- only bc you as a person would never make any other desicion.

    It does?- Hm...
    A person who dies Christian...- God didn't make the desicion that he wouldn't believe in Islam. I think for that example it would be this:

    You know how everybody is "tested" throughout their lives right? That may be his "test" and therefore God may have given him many chances in his life to ...."see the light."

    In my opinion, I think that the Christian would've chosen to not take this path and therefore that would result in yeah.

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    (Original post by Anon_98)
    Yep, I understand...
    "It was going to happen anyway"- only bc you as a person would never make any other desicion.

    It does?- Hm...
    A person who dies Christian...- God didn't make the desicion that he wouldn't believe in Islam. I think for that example it would be this:

    You know how everybody is "tested" throughout their lives right? That may be his "test" and therefore God may have given him many chances in his life to ...."see the light."

    In my opinion, I think that the Christian would've chosen to not take this path and therefore that would result in yeah.

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    God does make the decision in the end, because everything in Islam is determined by God. God may give the person the illusion that they have a choice, but in the end, God's will is what happens, and if God's will is for a person to die a Christian, that would be that. The difference in between your point and mine is that you're describing the belief that we have a free choice, while I'm making the point that in reality God makes the calls, regardless.
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    (Original post by Anon_98)
    Are you the same person that kept using the word "illusory"? I can't remember bc there were a few with the same points, but your name sounds familiar.

    Destined to happen only bc you chose that path surely? If you had chosen another path however then God would've known that too...but that's what I think.

    You're welcome to give me your example and I'll give you my take on it, if you like. If I recall correctly you gave me a mouse example but I can't remember it anymore haha.

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    Well essentially...

    God is omniscient (i.e. all knowing). This means God knows everything (past present and future) and this knowledge is infallible. So essentially humans have no choice but to do what God already knows. So hypothetically while it may appear that humans have choices; every decision and action has already been known by God so it is destined to happen, so any freewill is an illusion.
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    (Original post by rufflin)
    A build up of things that just didn't sit right with me. One main aspect that I couldn't understand was the fact that God was all-knowing, most forgiving etc, and everyone's life is determined before they are born. Essentially, God 'created' non Muslim humans knowing they would never enter heaven, which is absolutely absurd (e.g. a person born as a Hindu would be classed as a Kaafir/non-believer who would never enter heaven if he died as a Hindu, which God planned to happen anyway). A few other things, but this was the main reason.
    Everybody was created to worship Allah, and we testified in the life before this. You telling non muslims that some people were created to go hell is a lie and discourages people from Islam. If u say anything about Islam make sure u r well informed beforehand.
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    (Original post by Anon_98)
    Yep, I understand...
    "It was going to happen anyway"- only bc you as a person would never make any other desicion.

    It does?- Hm...
    A person who dies Christian...- God didn't make the desicion that he wouldn't believe in Islam. I think for that example it would be this:

    You know how everybody is "tested" throughout their lives right? That may be his "test" and therefore God may have given him many chances in his life to ...."see the light."

    In my opinion, I think that the Christian would've chosen to not take this path and therefore that would result in yeah.

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    Have you heard of Qadr in Islam? Allah decides everyone's fate 50,000 years before creation.
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    (Original post by Hamza33)
    Everybody was created to worship Allah, and we testified in the life before this. You telling non muslims that some people were created to go hell is a lie and discourages people from Islam. If u say anything about Islam make sure u r well informed beforehand.
    I think you have issues with your reading, I am telling everybody that it is the truth, it's irrefutable if you believe the fact that Qadr exists and people's fate is determined by Allah. I said he creates people KNOWING that they will enter the hell fire. I am well informed about Islam, even more-so by the research I've done before making the decision to leave.
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    (Original post by Anon_98)

    You know how everybody is "tested" throughout their lives right? That may be his "test" and therefore God may have given him many chances in his life to ...."see the light."

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    Allah determines everything you do 50000 years before you are born, so how can life be a "test" when Allah already knows exactly what you will do?

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    (Original post by rufflin)
    Do you eat pork?

    Not sure if this has been asked before.
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    (Original post by German123)
    Do you eat pork?

    Not sure if this has been asked before.
    Nah, not tried it yet. Super curious though, it's like taboo in Islam so I've always had second thoughts before trying some. One day...
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    (Original post by tumshie)
    Allah determines everything you do 50000 years before you are born, so how can life be a "test" when Allah already knows exactly what you will do?

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    This is really the crux of the issue. Muslims can argue we have free will until they're blue in the face, but what they cannot refute is the fact that life is not a test. How can it be when God knows everything? A test implies some uncertainty in the outcome.
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    (Original post by h3isenberg)
    Well essentially...

    God is omniscient (i.e. all knowing). This means God knows everything (past present and future) and this knowledge is infallible. So essentially humans have no choice but to do what God already knows. So hypothetically while it may appear that humans have choices; every decision and action has already been known by God so it is destined to happen, so any freewill is an illusion.
    Yes, I agree with your first two points and third one -partially.

    God is all knowing, yes. He is all knowing in the sense that...he just knows what you'll do and what'll happen in advance. In the present time it is STILL your choice. Just bc the future is seen does not mean that the present is altered in any way to fit the future. The future would be seen differently depending on your choices and desicions.

    You're just viewing what will happen prior to when it actually occurs therefore obviously the future will be destined..but I know what you mean. Personally I think if you look at the whole idea, it initially seems like an illusion but actually it isn't because the present it still in your hands!- Liam Neeson remember.

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    Can we get married?
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    (Original post by EdmundWoodstock)
    Have you heard of Qadr in Islam? Allah decides everyone's fate 50,000 years before creation.
    Um, no..I haven't..
    Does that mean all my previous points are of no value and what I have been stating is just complete and utter rubbish..? *Sobs*

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    (Original post by tumshie)
    Allah determines everything you do 50000 years before you are born, so how can life be a "test" when Allah already knows exactly what you will do?

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    Okay okay..someone's just said. I surrender.

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    im also an ex muslim but im a 15 year old girl, my family don't know either
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    (Original post by tumshie)
    Allah determines everything you do 50000 years before you are born, so how can life be a "test" when Allah already knows exactly what you will do?

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    Wait but your choices are still yours..right..like..

    - Read what I just said to H3isenberg, it applies to what you just asked, I think.

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    (Original post by Anon_98)
    Yes, I agree with your first two points and third one -partially.

    God is all knowing, yes. He is all knowing in the sense that...he just knows what you'll do and what'll happen in advance. In the present time it is STILL your choice. Just bc the future is seen does not mean that the present is altered in any way to fit the future. The future would be seen differently depending on your choices and desicions.

    You're just viewing what will happen prior to when it actually occurs therefore obviously the future will be destined..but I know what you mean. Personally I think if you look at the whole idea, it initially seems like an illusion but actually it isn't because the present it still in your hands!- Liam Neeson remember.

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    You seem a bit incredulous on this matter.
    I'm copy and pasting this explanation of theological determinism because it's quite succinct.


    1. Assume divine foreknowledge or omniscience
    2. Infallible foreknowledge implies destiny (it is known for certain what one will do)
    3. Destiny eliminates alternate possibility (one cannot do otherwise)


    You say God is all-knowing, therefore there is no possibility of changing the present and future other than what God knew an infinite time in the past. It's about as possible as saying that humans can change the past. The future has already happened in the perspective of an omniscient God so it is set in stone (although humans are under the illusion that it hasn't).
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    (Original post by Anon_98)
    Okay okay..someone's just said. I surrender.

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    Which brings us back to the issue of Allah creating people, just to send them to hell, nice guy don't you think?

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    I'm Muslim and I have agnostic family.
    But regarding God is all knowing and your lives being predetermined for you. And God doesn't decide whether your going to hell or not before your born. You create your own destiny in Islam and your decisions are your own. But that's how I was taught it. But I get what you mean tho my brother isn't muslim he thinks all form religion is bull****. But I love him and all my other family members because we're family and that's life.
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    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    You presented 4 verses TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, entirely. They were all written for different people at different times for doing different things. I gave you an ENTIRE chapter dedicated for the Non-believers. In fact the Chapter is SPECIFICALLY called Al-Kafirun (The Non-Believers). Your 4 verses are irrelevant. You go take irrelevant quotes out of the Quran, when there is an entire chapter dedicated for this very topic? Nice try

    And it was me that was arguing that there's a change in context which is exactly why you just given a chapter dedicated to those who do not follow Islam.

    Islam doesn't teach punishment. It teaches that people (Muslims & Non-Muslims alike) can fall into 2 different categories depending on their actions in their lifetime. It's not like there's a problem with "not sinning" now is there? I'm a smelling some religious intolerance? Probably so.
    That chapter is referring to the Meccan polytheists whose supreme God was Allah, but they worshipped the lesser Gods in the hope that they would intercede to Allah on the Meccans' behalf. The Meccans were basically saying that they too worship Allah as the supreme God, but Muhammad tells them in this surah that although the Meccans claim to worship the same God as Muhammad, they do not in fact worship the same God. This is just Muhammad telling the Meccans to "**** off", because their religions are different and they will never accept each other. It has nothing to do with tolerance since according to tafsir al-Jalalyn, any peaceful meaning of the last verse was abrogated by the command to wage war against the idolaters.

    So it seems like it is you who is taking verses out of context.
 
 
 
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